Please add STR to Fending accessories

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

lol it was obviously a joke.

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It looked like a joke intended to make a point. I pointed out why it was an irrelevant joke.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

1) it should be a trade-off OR tank DPS would be nerfed to compensate, which no one wants

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why? tanks can already wear melded jewelry which basically does the same thing

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

2) all melee dps would just wear fending vit+str accessories, as all the 2ndary stats are less useful than before

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you'll note that the melded jewelry with VIT isn't all that popular with DPS unless they're specifically getting gibbed by high damage raid content. And even then, that's only if they can't deal with it any other way.

The reason is that DPS classes very heavily favor offensive stats and VIT not so much. So I really don't see most of them taking VIT/STR accessories if that means giving up 50% of the STR on the right side in the vast majority of fights.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Tanks are there to tank. I don't see the need for strength other than to power your way through content quickly which isn't really necessary if you have good DPS.

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i agree with you. ive only mained pld since 2.0 launch and the stats that other tanks tell me to stack seem to be based off their individual experiences. from 1-50 i was told str for all accessories/bonus points and to use DoW left sides. as soon as i hit 50 it suddenly changed to only vit. being my first mmo when i started ff14 the whole 3 role thing was confusing enough considering all the older rpgs i played your party members could be tuned to have anyone be a "dps/healer". nowadays each party member has a specific job to do to be successful in raids and the "right way" to do said job is completely arbitrary dependent upon who you ask.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

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Well, I believe that melded accessories is likely better for DPS too, as you get achieve higher int/str/dex with them. (I'd stack INT on top of INT) However, most people don't do this most likely due to cost.

I suppose what you said makes sense about the trade-off; however, the reason why you can have both is because you go through the trouble. Tanks can already output some great damage, if vit/str was handed out, then they would see a nerf.

As for the joke, it was relevant. As I find this complaint is as stupid as the one that I mentioned.

The only point that you have made that I agree with is that it is 'unfair'. However, there are a lot of things in the game that are not fair. For example, why do tanks get extra experience and gil when they run a dungeon? They already get instant queues. I, a DPS waiting for 40 minutes, should get the bonus to make up for time lost. This is not exactly fair. You know what? Most things aren't.

Better yet, can we have all primary stats added to all acc and then doubled?

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Shouldn't the current end game, i190 gear be obviously stronger than the crafted stuff that you can get before you even set foot in a single end game dungeon?

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No. I'm tired of raid gear being the only thing that's important. Why even have other content in the game if none of it is going to be useful?

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Tanks are there to tank. I don't see the need for strength other than to power your way through content quickly which isn't really necessary if you have good DPS.

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Yeah!! We would MUCH rather you do 400 DPS as a tank opposed to 750!!

- said no raid leader ever

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The only point that you have made that I agree with is that it is 'unfair'. However, there are a lot of things in the game that are not fair. For example, why do tanks get extra experience and gil when they run a dungeon? They already get instant queues. I, a DPS waiting for 40 minutes, should get the bonus to make up for time lost. This is not exactly fair. You know what? Most things aren't.

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But adventurer in need was intended to encourage people to actually queue for things as tank/healer and reduce the queue time for dps. Problem is that the rewards aren't that great, so I doubt a lot of people pay attention to them. I'd say that if it's reducing queue time for dps at all, it's a fair trade-off regardless.

To avoid being completely off-topic: I agree with OP, but I have nothing more to add to the discussion than the points already made here.

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Originally Posted by Pavise

Why not just have the Primary stat + Vit on all accessories? Keep the secondaries as they are since they're balancing encounters after tanks going full strength anyway....

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That would REALLY help the current state of the game.

i agree ! , a soon as SE adds VIT to dex , mind , int and str accessories too

or SE could balance tanks dmg around VIT instead of STR.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

i agree ! , a soon as SE adds VIT to dex , mind , int and str accessories too

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Yes.

Healer Jewelry:
20 Vitality
40 Mind

Melee DPS Jewelry:
20 Vitality
40 Strength

Mage Jewelry:
20 Vitality
40 Intelligence

Tank Jewelry:
20 Strength
40 Vitality

Ranged DPS Jewelry:
20 Vitality
40 Dexterity.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Well, I believe that melded accessories is likely better for DPS too, as you get achieve higher int/str/dex with them. (I'd stack INT on top of INT) However, most people don't do this most likely due to cost.

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People don't do it because you can't do it. Whatever primary stat is already on an HQ accessory is already at its maximum. The reason it works for tanks is that they are always making use of two primary stats, VIT and STR. For the other roles, VIT is nice to have, but unless you're dying from a lack of it you're not going to drop whatever your primary stat is for it.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I suppose what you said makes sense about the trade-off; however, the reason why you can have both is because you go through the trouble. Tanks can already output some great damage, if vit/str was handed out, then they would see a nerf.

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You've missed what the problem is. Tanks can already get vit/str, but they get more of them combined from i150 accessories than i190 accessories.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

For example, why do tanks get extra experience and gil when they run a dungeon? They already get instant queues. I, a DPS waiting for 40 minutes, should get the bonus to make up for time lost.

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I can't tell if you're just trolling here or if you really don't understand that the reason tanks get extra experience and gil is to encourage more people to queue as tanks. That way you get to be a DPS waiting for 40 minutes instead of a DPS waiting for 60+ minutes.

1. Oh ok that makes sense, thanks Ibi. I never went the crafted route, so had no idea.
2. I get the point that they get more with the crafted, because both are on there. My point is that the trade offs are you take the easy route and get it with law/alex or the hard route with better stats (crafting or need lots of gil).
3. I completely understand why they get experience, and I don't think that should necessarily change. My point is that not everything is fair and the game shouldn't necessarily be designed around fair.
3. b. Do you honestly believe the bonus actually helps reduce queue times? I don't think most people pay attention to it.


Ultimately though, the biggest flaw in this game (to me) is the lack of builds (between gear and skills). This is the one exception and everyone wants it removed :| I'd love to see more like this added to all the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

2. I get the point that they get more with the crafted, because both are on there. My point is that the trade offs are you take the easy route and get it with law/alex or the hard route with better stats (crafting or need lots of gil).

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Secondary stats like parry are completely useless.

I would agree with you, if Gil was easier to get for tanking. However it is not, you have to be a crafter to get that kind of gil.

Which is rather sad, there is just no real way to make money in this game with combat. So there needs to be a way to get tanks to acquire large amounts of gil.

Since there isn't, it needs to be balanced.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

How is that relevant to my post?

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Awnsered with my post. =)

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Secondary stats like parry are completely useless.

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How is that relevant to my post?

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

2. I get the point that they get more with the crafted, because both are on there. My point is that the trade offs are you take the easy route and get it with law/alex or the hard route with better stats (crafting or need lots of gil).

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I feel like that would be fine, if the difficulty was in any way commensurate. As it is though, it looks like the melded i150 accessories will be superior to those from Alexander Savage. I doubt most of the player base would find Alexander Savage to be the easy route, compared to just making gil, especially with how easy it is to make gil at the start of the expansion. I'm up about 10 mil from the start of the expansion, and the only thing I've done to actively try to make money is get a dragonskin map most days.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

3. I completely understand why they get experience, and I don't think that should necessarily change. My point is that not everything is fair and the game shouldn't necessarily be designed around fair.

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I'm less concerned with the fairness, and more concerned with it as a design issue. The cost of increasing a tank's DPS by as much as 50% should be one that's actually felt when you're in combat, not just one that hits your wallet.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

3. b. Do you honestly believe the bonus actually helps reduce queue times? I don't think most people pay attention to it.

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To an extent. It's probably not enough to get me to queue for something when I was planning on doing something else in the game, but when I'm looking to run some kind of instanced content, I'll always choose one that's offering a bonus over one that isn't.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Ultimately though, the biggest flaw in this game (to me) is the lack of builds (between gear and skills). This is the one exception and everyone wants it removed :| I'd love to see more like this added to all the jobs.

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A valid complaint.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Secondary stats like parry are completely useless.

I would agree with you, if Gil was easier to get for tanking. However it is not, you have to be a crafter to get that kind of gil.

Which is rather sad, there is just no real way to make money in this game with combat.

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You say that like primal items arent selling in the millions. You can make quite a bit of gil with killing mobs for items as well.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Yeah!! We would MUCH rather you do 400 DPS as a tank opposed to 750!!

- said no raid leader ever

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Best Post in thread
In many cases, An Awesome form of Mitigation is beating the shit out of the Boss so it don't stay alive long enough to wreck your team (Unless It's a Troll Boss that Trolls u for Pushing). Defeating the Boss is a Job belonging to everyone on the Team (Damaging Moreso to the DPS).

- Tanks who play efficiently and use their cool downs wisely will be able to sacrifice their unnecessarily large HP Pools slightly to Deal more Damage without putting everyone else at Risk
- Healers who play efficiently will inevitably have downtime, and DPS is the most effective way to put that downtime to use.

Boss goes down Faster = Less Punches Tanks have to Take to the Friggin Face, and Less Damage Healers have to heal. A Prolonged Fight Hurts everyone on the team.

Im not gonna argue what makes good/bad Jobs, as that is percieved differently by everyone...But a Tank that can stay alive while bringing the boss down faster...or a Healer that can Keep the People alive while bringing the boss down faster is definitely more appealing in the eyes of many than a Tank/Healer that can't (Or Choose not to).

@Ibi

You make excellent points. It is a huge design issue. In my opinion, the crafted accs are too OP and should be toned down. I also think that the crafting /gil system is a bit off in this game. Gil shouldn't be so difficult to obtain for everyone non-crafter. I personally hate crafting with a passion, and would never be able to afford the pentameld accessory route.

I like your point that the cost should be more combat related not just hitting your wallet.

Right now, a WAR can outdps most DPS if in full strength and dps stance. We were at BisEX and cleared it with a WAR who was in all vit. Afterward, they challenged our lowest DPS to a DPS off at Bismark EX for like 200k gil I think. They swapped to STR accs and beat out all DPS. However, we weren't able to clear due to both the WAR not wearing Vit + using DPS stance and the healers unable to compensate. If he was wearing vit/str pentameld, it would have been way too OP. (Granted this particular WAR is an amazing player).

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

You make excellent points. It is a huge design issue. In my opinion, the crafted accs are too OP and should be toned down. I also think that the crafting /gil system is a bit off in this game. Gil shouldn't be so difficult to obtain for everyone non-crafter. I personally hate crafting with a passion, and would never be able to afford the pentameld accessory route.

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Do treasure hunt and sell mats for the Thavnair set. Many gil without crafting anything.
If you want gil without crafting anything, then start to farm something.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

If you can hold threat by rarely using the enmity combo and not using Grit then it just sounds like your DPS aren't very good.

If you're doing butchers you need to drop SE or SP or you'd need to drop both for a few seconds each rotation. If you skip butchers, you can have SP & SE active all the time. It's a nice option to have.

STR has a very noticeable effect on damage. It will also boost threat by the same amount.

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Did you ever stop to think that maybe your not that good and that is why you cannot fathom what other tanks are doing on a day to day basis?

My DPS do 900-1000 consistently.

If I had a dollar for every single time this debate popped up...

I'm almost inclined to agree with the OP on this. Add like 50% of the strength bonus stat from slaying accessories to the fending accessories. That way, while you won't get as much of a STR increase as you would from slaying accessories, you're STILL getting a STR increase. But even if SE did that, I imagine these threads around "VIT vs STR" would still be cropping up like mad.

Personally, I keep both sets on me so that I can adjust accordingly, going with mostly fending by default since I'm often in PUGs and don't know how good that random healer is until I've checked both their gear and how they operate. And even then, crap can happen on a whims notice.

... but that's just me. You guys go ahead and keep arguing about this. I'll just go get my popcorn over here...

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

In my opinion, the crafted accs are too OP and should be toned down.

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The crafted accessories are what tanks *like* to wear. It's always useful in all content and when you upgrade, it's a noticeable upgrade in all aspects.

The fending stuff has a real limited usefulness. A lot of times, you get it, break it out for a few high end fights and then swap to something else for a lot of the easier content (whether that's a few pieces or all of it). When you get the upgrades, it's like /shrug I have a few more hp.

The fending stuff is good for more HP, but that extra HP is mostly wasted outside of anything that's not top tier content. For the majority of things you might be doing (daily runs, hunts, helping guildies on lower tier content, etc) you're probably going to swap out to more STR.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Right now, a WAR can outdps most DPS if in full strength and dps stance. We were at BisEX and cleared it with a WAR who was in all vit. Afterward, they challenged our lowest DPS to a DPS off at Bismark EX for like 200k gil I think. They swapped to STR accs and beat out all DPS. However, we weren't able to clear due to both the WAR not wearing Vit + using DPS stance and the healers unable to compensate. If he was wearing vit/str pentameld, it would have been way too OP. (Granted this particular WAR is an amazing player).

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If a tank job can wear all STR gear and beat DPS jobs, that's problem with job balance, not gear balance.

Of course, that's assuming the DPS all had equal quality gear, played their job optimally, still got beat by the WAR AND that the parser was correctly picking up everybody's DPS. The parsers have had issues in the past, and with all the new Heavensward skills, I'm a little reluctant to trust them just yet.

I mean, it would be different if there was an official parser you could use for yourself only that would give you an accurate idea of how much DPS *you* were doing, but that's another thread

Of course you'll note that this *problem* WAR was wearing neither crafted nor fending accessories, but full STR accessories. Crafted does not provide that much STR and if you added 50% STR on fending, it would provide even less.

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Originally Posted by Alexika

Did you ever stop to think that maybe your not that good and that is why you cannot fathom what other tanks are doing on a day to day basis?

My DPS do 900-1000 consistently.

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The various tank rotations are super difficult. If you're barely using any enmity skills, then the only way you can mathematically hold threat vs. a DPS class is if you're doing more damage than them or they're not attacking the same thing you are.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Tanks are there to tank. I don't see the need for strength other than to power your way through content quickly which isn't really necessary if you have good DPS.

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I think most people forget the better a tanks dos is the better their hate gain. So yes they should put str on right side gear for fending stuff or just put back in enmity boosts on tank gear.


And I will not spend Gil on crafted junk that will be useless in 2 patches.

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Originally Posted by Calypsx

You say that but the tanks that stack strength instead of vitality say otherwise. Having both would end the debate between the two but at the same time would take away build creativity.

Not that other jobs really have much build creativity though anyway so I don't see why adding a little bit of strength would be a problem.

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And here is the real issue ladies and gentlemen....there is NO class creativity /sadface. its just a game of clones....but its still pretty fun...but oh man if you could have some creative control over more than just glamour....

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Originally Posted by Cinicus

And here is the real issue ladies and gentlemen....there is NO class creativity /sadface. its just a game of clones....but its still pretty fun...but oh man if you could have some creative control over more than just glamour....

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You'd still end up with people finding the very best possible load out and then everyone would copy that. Creativity in builds is just an illusion of choice, there's still a best setup and everything else is suboptimal

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Tanks are there to tank. I don't see the need for strength other than to power your way through content quickly which isn't really necessary if you have good DPS.

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Tanks that stack nothing but VIT are far less effective at their job than those who opt for more ideal stats. You only need as much VIT as is required to hit the safe number for HP for any given encounter, every point after that number is wasted and would be better spent on STR to not only increase your threat output but also help kill things faster. The higher your threat, the more a DPS can push their damage without fear of ripping a mob or boss off you.

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Except that a tank that can tank while wearing strength gear and not die is still better.

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Even then, not necessarily true. A tank foregoing HP and other defensive measures tends to require more careful maintenance from the healers, lessening their own opportunity to deal damage. And trust me, as a WHM myself, I can see the difference between a VIT-geared tank playing defensively and a STR-geared tank who isn't (prime example: WARs who never use Storm's Path on single/boss encounters, citing DPS loss as their reason why)

Tanks would do well to consider their situations carefully rather than just going balls to the wall DPS on everything.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

The crafted accessories are what tanks *like* to wear. It's always useful in all content and when you upgrade, it's a noticeable upgrade in all aspects.

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Speaking only for myself, the Slaying stuff is what I like to wear, but occasionally I have to compromise for my healers.

That aside, of course the crafted accessories are what tanks "like to wear". I'd like to wear any item that had almost double the stats of the instance drops at its level, and significantly more stats than items 40+ ilvl higher.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Snip.

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If it's a good WAR that knows what they're doing Storm's Path goes up for big hits, otherwise it's Butcher's Block and Storm's Eye combos to maintain DPS and threat. BB and SE are the two highest potency combos. I can go into just about any Alex floor at present and pull higher DPS than the majority of the DPS in the run while still tanking just fine and not giving healers a heart attack. This is while dancing between Defiance and Deliverance as the situation dictates.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Tanks are there to tank. I don't see the need for strength other than to power your way through content quickly which isn't really necessary if you have good DPS.

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You don't have good party DPS without tanks who take their contribution seriously. Stuff like killing A1 before the first jump would not be possible if I and my other tank didn't have 800+ STR.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Even then, not necessarily true. A tank foregoing HP and other defensive measures tends to require more careful maintenance from the healers, lessening their own opportunity to deal damage. And trust me, as a WHM myself, I can see the difference between a VIT-geared tank playing defensively and a STR-geared tank who isn't (prime example: WARs who never use Storm's Path on single/boss encounters, citing DPS loss as their reason why)

Tanks would do well to consider their situations carefully rather than just going balls to the wall DPS on everything.

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That's when crafted accessories become useful, you can bring that high DPS into high end content with gear checks or if you're in DF and you get that whiny healer who doesn't understand what EHP is.

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Originally Posted by Ibi

Speaking only for myself, the Slaying stuff is what I like to wear, but occasionally I have to compromise for my healers.

That aside, of course the crafted accessories are what tanks "like to wear". I'd like to wear any item that had almost double the stats of the instance drops at its level, and significantly more stats than items 40+ ilvl higher.

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Sorry, that was poorly worded. I simply meant crafted vs. just the fending items, since it makes you noticeably stronger. More VIT with nothing else is kinda ... meh. Certainly not terribly exciting to go from one tier of fending to the next and the only thing you get is another 20 or so VIT.

This issue would be fixed if things hit harder. Just people are like 10+ ilevels then anything out there right now. So too much HP.
Or make it where you can't cross stuff so can't wear slaying.

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Originally Posted by Picori

This issue would be fixed if things hit harder. Just people are like 10+ ilevels then anything out there right now. So too much HP.
Or make it where you can't cross stuff so can't wear slaying.

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Why do you consider it a problem that people have a choice, did you just come down from mt.sinai where god inscribed on a stone tablet that people have to wear vit? I don't see why people should be forced to gear inefficiently.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

You're so cute. SE has in fact stated that they take the DPS a tank can do into consideration when designing content.

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Thanks. And there you go. If they take it into consideration already why do we need extra strength?

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Yeah!! We would MUCH rather you do 400 DPS as a tank opposed to 750!!

- said no raid leader ever

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Then use strength accessories. Simple. It's one or the other, it's purposely implemented that way.

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Originally Posted by Picori

This issue would be fixed if things hit harder.

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I'm not sure hitting harder is a good design, though. Back in WoW a long time ago we had a lot of those types of encounters. Healers basically spam heal because every hit hits like a truck. There was only one way to gear and that was to gear to minimize the risk of insta-gibs, i.e. a tank buster immediately followed by a full hit that would just take away all the rest of your HP.

It also promoted the study of Effective Health, though, and that mostly isn't talked about in FFXIV.

I like gearing options, but I don't like options that require trading away your core value, i.e. survivability. The choices presented to tanks should be one where the gear changes how one uses skills to maximize dps without sacrificing survivability. So skill-speed build, crit build, det build. Not VIT build vs STR build. But I suppose the design of combos inherently makes that kind of choices impossible to implement.

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

You're so cute. SE has in fact stated that they take the DPS a tank can do into consideration when designing content.

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Source?

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Originally Posted by Zfz

Which means there should be some communication. If the healer is able to keep up a tank with full STR accessories, then the healer doesn't need to always heal a VIT tank to full. Take the tank over 80% and let Regen or the tank's self-heal do the rest.

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Take the level 60 dungeons. They are pretty easy at minimum ilvl 145. Even easier with ilvl 160. Then when the tank and the DPS starts to push over 180 then that excess HP over what it was already easy at is pointless and can easily be converted to STR to speed up the run a bit. Plus the extra mitigation from the armor.

Like at lvl 50. Full ilvl 130 Vit gear would be totally pointless in Castrum meridian.

If you are at minimum ilvl or very slightly over, due to gear mitigation, that extra Vit isn't a waste. But highly over gearing it is different entirely.

Honestly I'd be happy with seeing STR based accessories limited to DPS classes and VIT based accessories limited to tank classes.

Its 1.5 years into the games lifespan. Tank DPS matters, and if you don't think so, then you don't fully understand this game yet.