Machinist superior then bards?

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

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Where did I say BRD was okay lol? I am all for quality of life changes for the job. The job feels extremely clunky now and it feels like SE wasn't looking at the previous abilities/traits in their kit when designing the 3.0 skills.

What I am saying is you can't say someone doesn't know how a 2.0 mechanic works because they never mained the job.

Bard and Machinist do about the same dps. Although I'd argue that mistakes will hurt Bard's less than Machinist's.
Machinist has more options for moving while under their stance but requires greater concentration. Equal I guess?
Both Bard and Machinist recover the same amount of MP. 265 normal and 530 with battle voice/hypercharge
Hypercharge lasts half the duration of battle voice but the cooldown is 120 seconds instead of 300. Overall, Machinist can recover more MP but Bard is better at recovering it in bursts.
Bard increases magical damage by 5/15% more than Machinist but can't increase physical damage. Bard is better to bring along if the majority of the dps are casters, Machinist otherwise.
Bard has to sacrifice MP to boost the damage of others. Machinist does not. They can boost damage for free every 120 seconds.
Bard can boost magical damage for ~72 seconds from full MP. Machinist can only boost magical/physical damage for ~24 seconds. For casters, Bard stomps all over Machinist.
Machinist can help reduce damage with dismantle and rend mind, Bard cannot. They can also inflict heavy, silence, knock back, bind and stun while Bard can only silence and bind.
They both have the same HP, MP, DEF and MDEF.
Bard can self-heal with second wind for ~1800 every 120 seconds. A Machinist can't outside of items. This makes Machinist a bit more squishy

In the big picture, Machinist is a bit better since they bring more utility but they're by far the two most similar jobs in the game right now.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

they're by far the two most similar jobs in the game right now.

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I agree with You at this point.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Machinist is a bit better since they bring more utility and TP isn't an issue for them.

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I disagree with You at this point, TP is a issue for MCH and for BRD during long non stop encounters or against the dummie.

Heavy Shot: 60 TP
Split Shot: 70 TP
Slug Shot 60 TP
Clean Shot: 60 TP

Straight Shot: 70 TP
Hot Shot: 80 TP
Lead Shot: 80 TP

Iron Jaws: 60 TP (For both DoTs)

I play both, BRD and MCH a lot and I can say confidently than both, BRD and MCH are at the same point about management of TP. MCH gets 50 TP every 30 seconds, but without Quick Reload MCH is out of TP faster than BRD. Quick Reload brings TP because is needed for MCH.

I did dummy testing. I can go significantly longer without running out of TP on machinist than bard.

Just did another test with Bard. You won't last for the 5th invigor. You're at the verge of running out on the 4th.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

I did dummy testing. I can go significantly longer without running out of TP on machinist than bard.

Just did another test with Bard. You won't last for the 5th invigor. You're at the verge of running out on the 4th.

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Good luck like BRD increases TP spent if You get a lot of SS procs, and bad luck like MCH increases TP spent if You get a lot of Split Shot-Split Shot-Split Shot-Split Shot....

If You are keeping Hot Shot and Lead Shot 100% uptime I really don't think MCH has a better TP management than BRD. I think.

Okay. Fair enough.

Currently,BRD and MCH are by far the two most similar jobs in the game.

I choose BRD or MCH depending of the encounter, I mean, MCH needs more time to "burst" because You need to prepare every CD for Wildfire, then You need 15 seconds for Wildfire explodes, making MCH really bad if burst window is smaller than 20-25 seconds, however, BRD can burst easily in 15-20 seconds.

2 or more targets makes BRD really good, but if targets are together, MCH can be good using Bishop Turret,

I have killed every current encounters (Bis Ex, Rav Ex, Alex 1,2,3,4) a lot of times, for real, and the main difference between BRD and MCH In my opinion is about skill cap and how much attention you need to pay, MCH needs more practices than BRD in my opinion.. I mean, when you play like BRD or MCH at 100% They are at the same "difficulty" level, but You need more practice to perfectly play like MCH than for BRD.

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Originally Posted by JohnMccain

flame other people

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You're the only one that's flamed anyone, though, with your "they can read tooltips and you can't".

Also, I'm not the only one that's mentioned seeing it, so clearly I'm not just spreading information based on what I've experienced, but what other Bards have experienced too.

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"Inflicted" meaning every time your DoTs lower the target's hp it has a chance to reset bloodletter's cooldown. It isn't some magic interval, it says inflicted there for a reason.

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I don't see that in the tooltip you quoted. I asked you to show me the tooltip which states that. You just showed me a tooltip that I already brought up and then gave your own interpretation, which was just restating your argument.

Bard should be lower than Machinist, it's still a piss easy class to play.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I don't see that in the tooltip you quoted. I asked you to show me the tooltip which states that. You just showed me a tooltip that I already brought up and then gave your own interpretation, which was just restating your argument.

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Is this even open to having multiple interpretations? River of Blood has a chance of activating when your DoTs do crit damage, it is specifically stated in the tooltip. DoTs only do damage roughly every three seconds. If SE had two instances handling DoT damage then that would be pretty retarded (why wouldn't they just make the 3s timer a 1s timer), and you would think they would have this magical instance updating the hp bar on the target as well based on when it ticks.

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Originally Posted by JohnMccain

Is this even open to having multiple interpretations?

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Clearly, since what you're saying doesn't mesh with what I've observed. It still isn't stated in the tooltip, so if you're going to attack me for not reading tooltips, it had better well be stated in a tooltip.

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If SE had two instances handling DoT damage then that would be pretty retarded (why wouldn't they just make the 3s timer a 1s timer) and you would think they would have this magical instance updating the hp bar on the target as well based on when it ticks.

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It limits the number of things that need to pop up and display for the PS3 players. What's happening server-side as far as damage calculations doesn't require PS3 power to calculate, whereas displaying things does. It's the reason why we don't get to see everyone's TP bars, making Army's Paeon that much harder to use effectively.

It is worth adding that the magical reduction is a small aoe field that is stationary. Not a massive issue, but when the mob moves it sure is. Burst regen is better than long drawn out regen, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Machinist can help reduce damage with dismantle and rend mind, Bard cannot. They can also inflict heavy, silence, knock back, bind and stun while Bard can only silence and bind. Machinist is a bit better since they bring more utility

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Dismantle / rend mind share cd. MCH has the upper hand, but it is a 5% 10sec duration on a 90 second cd ability. It really is not all that great. It helps.

More utility is also based on the actual use of said utility. Stun / silence share cd. Stun is melee range on top of that. Knock back does not work in most content that actually matters. Bind and heavy share cd, where as bind hardly ever seem to work.

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Originally Posted by HairyRoger

It is worth adding that the magical reduction is a small aoe field that is stationary. Not a massive issue, but when the mob moves it sure is. Burst regen is better than long drawn out regen, in my opinion.

Snip....

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I prefer MCH regen cause most times I can position my turret closer to the people who need it while not being out of position in some fights. I find the regen to be very large as well, large enough to cover most circular arenas.

Dismantle/Rend I feel will only shine in the upper limits for hardcore raids I remember monk dragon kick helped a lot in T13. Though this can be reapplied but helped mostly with transitions.

- In A4 there is a stun mechanic when a leg releases steam (but can be handled by a lot of other classes)
- In A2 you can knock back bombs (again situtational if Gobber not doing their job)
- In A3 you can stun adds.

So I feel like the utility is just at least for this "Story Mode" Alexander.

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Originally Posted by HairyRoger

It is worth adding that the magical reduction is a small aoe field that is stationary. Not a massive issue, but when the mob moves it sure is. Burst regen is better than long drawn out regen, in my opinion.

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What do you mean by "burst?"?

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

It limits the number of things that need to pop up and display for the PS3 players. What's happening server-side as far as damage calculations doesn't require PS3 power to calculate, whereas displaying things does. It's the reason why we don't get to see everyone's TP bars, making Army's Paeon that much harder to use effectively.

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Then please explain to me when a DoT ticks with 2s left on the effect, and the damage isn't compensated for those 2s?

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Originally Posted by LeonarRimon

large enough to cover most circular arenas.

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I agree, but I was talking about the magic damage amplifier. The aoe damage field is not that big.

There are a few places you can use some of the utility, yes, but as you said it is not really needed in a lot of cases. The fact that we use knock and silence in the rotation also makes stun kind of out of the picture unless it is crucial. I just feel amount of utility should be measured in how much utility you have that will actually make a difference. Dismantle/rend will be helpful later on, but it is probably best stacked with other dmg reductions, such as dragon kick(it stacks, right?) and you can only use one of the two every 90 seconds.

The fact that stun is something a lot of other classes have adds to this. We will most likely not be the ones stunning stuff unless, as said, crucial.

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

What do you mean by "burst?"?

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I was referring to LunarEmeralds statement that bard can recover in burst. Battle voice lasting longer than hypercharge, meaning that you can recover more in that amount of time than we would in the same amount of time, when using hypercharge. Correct me if I am wrong.

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Originally Posted by JohnMccain

Then please explain to me when a DoT ticks with 2s left on the effect, and the damage isn't compensated for those 2s?

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Why? I'm not the one claiming to know how everything works serverside. I'm only claiming to know what I've experienced. I thought this was clear by now.

But if you want an answer, why don't you go read your tooltips? I'm sure one of them will explain it, and then you can come here and rub it in my face!

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Originally Posted by HairyRoger

I was referring to LunarEmeralds statement that bard can recover in burst. Battle voice lasting longer than hypercharge, meaning that you can recover more in that amount of time than we would in the same amount of time, when using hypercharge. Correct me if I am wrong.

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Yes BV lasts longer but 15 v 30 seconds at the same potency is meh and you get Hypercharge back much faster than a BRD gets BV. As far as burst, the 2 jobs fulfill the same role. Utility of song v turret goes to the MCH sure to being able to just redeploy if a mob moves and hit promotion. If a BRD has to dodge and get out of range of the person they're singing for they're SOL. Also think of the DPS loss. BRD is actually losing 15% of its DPS as well as 3 seconds of cast time maybe more of you get interrupted where as a MCH is losing maybe 10% with a 0 cast time oGCD to deploy is turret for DPS or utility.

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

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Add the fact that hypercharge is a very potent dps ability as well. It adds a lot of dmg to the attacks of the turret. Redeploying is fine, but what does that have to do with promotion? The aoe range of that is good as it is. When talking about range and redeplaying, we are talking about hypercharged bishop in attack stance. Redeploy that and you cancel the ability. If you pop battle voice, you can still move without stopping battle voice, no? I am not arguing which is better.

If you're redeploying during Hypercharge you're bad lol. There shouldn't be a task to move your turret within the 15sec Hypercharge is active. The thing I was talking about with redeploying and using promotion is if there is a time where you're apostates from your healers and they need ballad but you can't reach them, a MCH turret could be deployed in their vicinity and still hit them with Ballad.

Yea, so you give and take. We can't run around with a magical dps increase to the team and you can't split your aura from yourself. BRD can decrease magic resistance on demand, we have to use hypercharge to do the same and I think the physical version is more useful than the magical one for us. I can't debuff and at the same time have the ability to hypercharge the regen. In terms of team support, I don't think MCH is superior to BRD by any means. As for DPS, we seem to be around the same dps.

You say you nerf 15% flat and we only lose 10ish%. I disagree because of the fact that hypercharge is a significant increase in dps, especially during a wildfire. I can see us being quite equal when it comes to dps lost.

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Originally Posted by JohnMccain

"Grants a 50% chance that critical damage over time inflicted by Venomous Bite or Windbite will reset the Bloodletter recast timer."

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Just because it only displays numbers every 3 seconds doesn't mean everything that you can't see is happening every 3 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Why?

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Because we are trying to figure out when the DoT damage is "going out in the 3s window", potentially activating river of blood. That was the whole point right?

As for what you and some others experience, I think what it might be is packet loss. The animation goes off but the skill didn't register server side, making it look like a proc. Next time it happens check and see if the damage numbers are showing up on the target.

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Originally Posted by HairyRoger

You say you nerf 15% flat and we only lose 10ish%. I disagree because of the fact that hypercharge is a significant increase in dps, especially during a wildfire. I can see us being quite equal when it comes to dps lost.

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http://i.imgur.com/aRqzEMH.png While the MCH DPS could be better the Rook will always be consistent. The rook in this parse is about 12.5% of my total dps so as the actual MCH gameplay is perfected the percentage the rook is contributing will go down.

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Which, frankly, is irrelevant how it happens as long as it can happen. Doesn't matter whether it's design or latency, a wasted proc due to a double proc is a wasted proc due to a double proc.

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It does matter. Server/Network glitch is a glitch, not an expected behavior.
You don't normally build you rotation around glitches, although rotation might help with some glitches. Do you really think that SE should bow down to your problems and redesign class just because some glitches might cause double proc?

Skill rollbacks also happens in bad network/server situation - should we legitimately think that it is "normal" situation while building a rotation? And lag spikes with game freezes can ruin almost anything - should we also ask for something to "compensate" in such situations?
Don't be ridiculous. S**t happens and double proc is abnormal behavior from game mechanics perspective (=shouldn't ever happens) - i.e. there is no point to specifically address it and not overall "server lags and stuff".

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Originally Posted by Haxetc

http://i.imgur.com/aRqzEMH.png While the MCH DPS could be better the Rook will always be consistent. The rook in this parse is about 12.5% of my total dps so as the actual MCH gameplay is perfected the percentage the rook is contributing will go down.

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Fair enough that the turret is doing that dps. I have not checked so im not going to contest it. Take into consideration that this also means that you lose 24(?) seconds of 5% vulnerability for you and the entire physical lineup. Lined up with other classes burst, it adds up. All in all both classes lose a good chunk of dps potential, not only your own. I think the classes are too similar the way they are now. If each one has different strengths, that is a welcome thing.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

It does matter.

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Actually, it doesn't, because the argument stemmed from the statement that it was impossible to happen. If something can cause it to happen, then clearly it's not impossible.

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Do you really think that SE should bow down to your problems and redesign class just because some glitches might cause double proc?

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I didn't say that in any way, so I'll thank you to not make up strawmen to attack.

And, in fact, I'm not asking them to redesign the class. I want them to un-redesign it, in fact. The problems stem FROM the redesign.

Let's not forget about the 3.0 patch notes shall we?

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Originally Posted by 3.0 Patch Notes

[2.0] Player attributes have been adjusted as follows:
Skilspeed and spellspeed now affect damage over time and healing over time effects.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Let's not forget about the 3.0 patch notes shall we?

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Does not speed them up. It just makes them tick harder. DET for DoTs.