How do you deal with sluggish tanks?

I know people don't like waiting for too long so I try to keep up the pace when I am tanking, but come on, some guys can't wait even 10 seconds >:|!!

Worse is with the frigging bees in Neverreap, the second batch, if not careful you pull the tree as well and the tree is a trap for the bees to sting you because all the DPS first go for the tree for some reason so I try NOT to pull the tree... aaand there goes a DPS in a hurry to rush and rush and pulls the tree before I even catch the bees... :|

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

I know people don't like waiting for too long so I try to keep up the pace when I am tanking, but come on, some guys can't wait even 10 seconds >:|!!

Worse is with the frigging bees in Neverreap, the second batch, if not careful you pull the tree as well and the tree is a trap for the bees to sting you because all the DPS first go for the tree for some reason so I try NOT to pull the tree... aaand there goes a DPS in a hurry to rush and rush and pulls the tree before I even catch the bees... :|

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NOT THE BEES!!!!

Wait...*rereads*

NOT THE TREE!!!

Every *smart* tank I know just does the first batch of bees first, then pulls second set because 4 Final Stings lololololol. One of those cases of "big pull, must be a good idea and faster right?"

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Originally Posted by spelley

One of those cases of "big pull, must be a good idea and faster right?"

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Well, the bees DO die after the sting, so maybe the Maso Tanks think so O___o;;;
Anyway, can the stings be survived by Hallowed, Holmgang or Living Dead?

The front page of this thread is filled with snarky tank entitlement and is extremely annoying. I play every role and I enjoy every role and one thing that utterly irks me is that we feel the tank should always control the pace of a dungeon. I think every member should have a say in what goes on in the dungeon and we should stop treating tanks like fancy french poodles.

If the tank has a reason to wait, that makes sense. If he is just sitting there staring off into space and pulling one mob at a time when the group can easily handle a group is just as bad as a tank who rush pulls and pulls to much. Dungeons should be about time efficiency and fun. We should consider how ALL 4 members of the group feel not just the tank.

To answer the main topic: tanks will probably start considering going faster and pulling more in general when most DPS parse at very low numbers, and healers are better at doing their job and putting some DPS on the board.

I had a Vault run where a BRD was constantly asking to go faster and to pull more things.
The dude couldn't put more than 300 DPS on a pack of 5-6 targets.

So, yeah, I might sound like a prick, but I'll start thinking that big pull are the norm when good DPS are also the norm, and not the exception.

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

Well, the bees DO die after the sting, so maybe the Maso Tanks think so O___o;;;
Anyway, can the stings be survived by Hallowed, Holmgang or Living Dead?

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With mitigation you don't need any of the above :). You can also stun them, holy bomb them, or burst them down altogether. Either way, I feel your pain... or sting :X.

Another thing in the bees in Neverreap-- unlike the ones in Qarn, these don't seem to sting until they reach a certain HP threshold, so if you focus one down at a time, you probably won't get stung.

@Fyce: 300 dps on a group? Is this at 60? Seems extremely low. Had a great party today in Fractal where the BLM and I were bursting down packs with 2k+ average each. And while MCH AoE is pretty insane (for the short time we can keep it going), I don't think BRD would be THAT bad.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

If you focus one down at a time you probably won't get stung.

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Seems like they have both properties, by timer and HP %, mostly timer tho... I've downed them as a DPS before they even ever tried to pull the sting off.

But the problem is that if you pull the Tree along with the Bees, DPS focus usually goes to the Tree because AoE bloating and by the time they finish the tree the Bees are throwing their Sting :/

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Originally Posted by spelley

Every *smart* tank I know just does the first batch of bees first, then pulls second set because 4 Final Stings lololololol. One of those cases of "big pull, must be a good idea and faster right?"

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I ALWAYS do this (to clarify I always pull them separately 2 bees then tree and 2 bees) I do feel like I am not pulling enough when I do it but it is for that exact reason, I always get hit by 1 final sting (I take it with shadow wall) simply because DRK's stun doesn't regenerate quick enough unless I get a parry proc to stun more than one of them.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

@Fyce: 300 dps on a group? Is this at 60? Seems extremely low.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I had a Vault run where a BRD was constantly asking to go faster and to pull more things.
The dude couldn't put more than 300 DPS on a pack of 5-6 targets.

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The Vault is 57-58. The BRD in question was 58 and his gear was quite bad.
He wasn't using WM and very rarely his AoE rotation (to his defense, it was before the WM changes... but still).

But anyway, this kind of player is very common and thus, doesn't force tanks to be super good as well.
Plus, if you alternate between a good group and a bad one, the pacing should be completly different, but that's not easy to manage.

So, yeah... asking tanks to be masters at their job (pacing is their job, besides... tanking) while still having very bad DPS and Healers to deal with, is a bit too much.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

So, yeah... asking tanks to be masters at their job (pacing is their job, besides... tanking) while still having very bad DPS and Healers to deal with, is a bit too much.

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Yep. It's especially frustrating because it seems like there are a billion different opinions on every tiny little thing that tanks do. And if you do anything contrary to someone's personal opinion, you're "bad".

Stand here! No, stand over there! Pull that extra pack! No, don't pull that other pack! Face the boss that way! No, wait, face it the other way! Move the boss over there! No, move it over here!

Sure, people can call it "tank entitlement" or whatever, but I don't tell you Machinists how to press 1 over and over. Maybe just let me do my job and save the whining for when something goes wrong.

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Originally Posted by Tsilyi

I personally don't mind speed runs no matter what I am playing, but I am never going to force a tank to do more than they feel capable of. You're just asking for a bad time regardless.

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You read what I said right? It has absolutely nothing to do with pulling big. If you're not comfortable pulling big, don't. I'm in agreement about that. What I'm saying is, keep a good brisk pace. This is asking, seriously, almost nothing. It is in fact, asking even less than asking the dps to not worry about their buffs.

Main tank here.

1.The times i've seen a DPS jump in while someone is behind or watching a CD just baffles me.
2. Give healers a second(a few) to see if they want to apply buffs or not, This differs per healer in DF.
3. Often i play with friends and they might ask me to sit back just a few seconds for their TP To restore so they don't run out in the fight.

And just because you used your CDs before we even engage the boss(Really?) Does not mean i'm gonna pull if the healer is almost oom.

There is always i reason why i don't just jump in(Often i do) But when i don't there is a good reason to it. So get annoyed with it, Its in your best interest, as well as for the party:)

just /votekick

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

And just because you used your CDs before we even engage the boss(Really?) Does not mean i'm gonna pull if the healer is almost oom.

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The only ones I see blowing all their cooldowns before pulling a boss are tanks. You don't quite seem to understand how dps buffs work though. No one is using hotbar cooldowns between pulls. Most dps have various buffs that build up through combat but have a short duration, usually like 30 seconds or less. There are no ways to renew these buffs outside of combat and if they wear off the dps has to build the stack up from nothing again. Even in combat it usually takes a little time before you can reasonable do something to renew the buff so you can't run in at the last possible second.

Thus dps prefer pulls to be constant unless there is some crisis(tank cooldowns are not a crisis no dungeon boss requires them). Even bosses don't really require standing around or even stoneskin. I'm not saying rush the group but when no one is new there's no reason to pretend like ex roulette is savage alexander.

^ this.

I'm leveling my war, and as a main dps I know what they're going through. I don't wait on CDS before a dungeon boss, as no dungeon boss is that serious, they aren't really required and I'm constantly checking healer mp. My ready checks for bosses are done while we're running to the boss arena rather than after we've entered it. As soon as I cross that threshold and everyone checked yes while we were still running, I'm pulling it. My pace is that of constant movement unless someone has to afk.

If a dps pulls the next group of mobs, as long as it's reasonable (not running through half the dungeon aggroing everything and bringing it all to me at the same time) I'm gonna pick up those mobs too. My only expectation from dps that do that is to be able to handle their weight, since I know how much I do on my drg and nin. Groups of mobs shouldn't be around long enough to pose any serious threats.

The only whm buff I wait for is protect, and that's at the beginning of the dungeon.

I'm sure the healer will agree when people like you pull when he is OOM. Like i said, I usually jump in straight away unless one of the above. And i might not know anything about DPS, as i don't like the classes, I do know a thing or two about tank classes and healer classes, So i do know why i don't jump in and just pull a boss every time :)

Meh, just tank how you want to tank, DPS will never be happy regardless. You'll always be too fast or too slow or pulling too few or pulling too many according to someone.

If I bitched about Dragoons getting whalloped by red zones as much as Dragoons bitch about me turning a boss 10-degrees to dodge a red zone, I'd never have time to actually press buttons! :D

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

I'm sure the healer will agree when people like you pull when he is OOM. Like i said, I usually jump in straight away unless one of the above. And i might not know anything about DPS, as i don't like the classes, I do know a thing or two about tank classes and healer classes, So i do know why i don't jump in and just pull a boss every time :)

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How often are you're healers running out of mp though? I play all 3, healer, tank, dps, I think maybe one time I've seen a party need to wait for a healer. This includes a lot of whms that use holy during trash. You make it seem like this is a regular occurrence of healers running out of mp. I would wager most of us don't see healers running out of mp on a regular basis. When people are talking about tanks keeping up a decent pace they're not talking about the very rare case where some healer needs a bit of mp.

In dungeons, if I'm waiting at a boss room, it's usually for a probable cause:

- Healer MP.
- SMN or Healer don't have their pet summoned.
- My TP is under 200 due to slow kills (when I'm on WAR).

Dps annoyed by tanks pulling when they're not ready yet they are most of the times pulling when everyone is not yet ready and immediately put the blame on tanks and healers for their own fault.........

I always make sure to run a circle around the group and do the manderville before every pull so everyone knows that I'm ready.

How do I deal with sluggish tanks? Simple. The same way I deal with sluggish DPS or sluggish healers. I accept that I queued for a roulette for which I do not control my groups and live with it.

I mean, if you're complaining about slow tanks in EX roulette, then... I dunno, queue with a tank you know will go fast. You CAN, in fact, group with other people for EX and High level roulette. Otherwise accept that you agreed, upon accepting that random group, that the random group is not going to be exactly how you want.

But here's something to think about before you make the claim that "there's no reason, blarrrgh."

In another game, there was a portion where you had to do some jumping. One party member was going slow doing the jumps, although accurately in the end. When asked why they took so long to do the jumps, their response changed the way I think about my other group members who go slow. They had a problem with the nerves in their hands which prevented them from being nimble with their hands, so given time, they could line up the jumps and make them, but they couldn't handle the rapid movement to twitch-jump across.

Consider also people who suffer from emotional conditions like anxiety. Had a tank group member who made slow pulls in another game and a DPS was getting impatient and whined. The tank's response, which they rightfully should not have had to explain to a complete stranger, was that if they pulled a lot or felt overwhelmed with the amount they were tanking, they'd feel anxious and not feel well or comfortable. So they pulled slowly and deliberately and carefully to make sure they were comfortable. We kicked the DPS for forcing the tank to reveal that kind of information just to appease them.

So remember: The next time you think the tank's being slow because no reason, think about how well you actually know the anonymous, random person on the other side to be able to say that they don't have a reason. Not everybody is a physically fit, medically sound, young person bursting with energy. There could be medical reasons that you don't know about and don't have a right to demand to know, or they could just not have the reaction times that you do and that's why they're playing a tank in a MMO where they should be allowed to set the pace rather than playing a FPS and no-scoping headshots.

And then deal with it.

Roulettes don't give you anything you can't get by grouping up with people you can control anyways. Need tomestones? Make a group for level 60 dungeons. Need exp? Make a group and queue for specific leveling dungeons. If you absolutely feel that your time is so precious that you must go at the pace you demand, then do something about it by controlling your group, not by demanding random people bow down to your desires.

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Originally Posted by spelley

Every *smart* tank I know just does the first batch of bees first, then pulls second set because 4 Final Stings lololololol. One of those cases of "big pull, must be a good idea and faster right?"

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Every smart / experienced tank I know normally has a cool down and stun ready for all 4. ;x

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Originally Posted by Seku

Every smart / experienced tank I know normally has a cool down and stun ready for all 4. ;x

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I've never, and will never, trust DF. If I go in with a premade, I pull everything and the bees melt like butter. I tried that in DF and they focus fired down the treant. Never again.

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Originally Posted by Seku

Every smart / experienced tank I know normally has a cool down and stun ready for all 4. ;x

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I was fairly sure Final Sting in Neverreap is based on health of the bees and not timed like in Qarn. I may be wrong... If I am, the dps in my groups must just always be amazing. Also, I don't recall the bees ever stinging at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Socomlord

Play a tank if you want to set the pace.

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Tanks don't set the pace all the time.

how do you deal with sluggish tanks? ...tank yourself. set your own pace. profit.

There is a party chat for a reason, you can communicate how you feel. I do that when I feel that the tank is being too careful or insecure. I usually assure them as a healer that I will blow CDs on larger pulls or go all crazy as a dps if they chose to speedrun. Communication helps most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

found this post in some old thread and I hope I meet tanks like this more often.

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Typically the tanks I find that do that in low level dungeons can't hold threat for shit and are squishy as all get out.

I hate speedruns.

And pulling for me will get you killed unless I said to. Letting you tank it when you spank it is no more trolling than you spanking it when you're not supposed to.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Tanks don't set the pace all the time.

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Say that again after they leave your group because some impatient fool decided to pull for them.
You wait in queue until we decide to join the pool. We set the pace. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Yeldir

If you're a summoner, you can simply summon Titan and do all of the pulls yourself, allowing the tank no time to sit and ponder. As a bonus, this sometimes humiliates them into leaving, which allows you to pick up someone less lazy.

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this is the saddest thing i ever read... and people like you maybe still QQ for the lack of tanks. a lot of superman's in this topic need to try tanking something with ppl like them,maybe they will understand how bad is the tank life these days.

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Originally Posted by Exu83

Say that again after they leave your group because some impatient fool decided to pull for them.
You wait in queue until we decide to join the pool. We set the pace. Deal with it.

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LOL leave it to someone like you take what I said the wrong way. I deal with it because I do not try to boss a tank around. I don't give a damn how a tank pulls, just don't pull more than you can handle. I've tanked a lot myself. And I have heard stories from other tanks on them being kicked because they wouldn't pull the way the others wanted them too. I hate speed running, it is exactly why I gave up WAR at 59. And once again, no tanks do not always set the pace. You can argue with me about that til your blue in the face. Group with me though and yes you do set the pace. For any other group out there with 3 others that are holier than thou, good luck. Leaving doesn't mean anything either.

We can find a new tank in less than 3 minutes. Some tanks still think that they're so rare and special. They're wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ashquar

Sorry disagree with you on this. If you pull it without waiting for a tank first, then you can die and get the trip back to the beginning of the dungeon. Only time I will intervene is if the healer tries to heal them. Other than that, well take the lesson and learn from it. And if I get kicked for being a "troll" as you call it, then so be it. If anything the DPS ought to be kicked for the same reason.

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If a DPS tries doing that while I'm tanking, I rip hate from them immediately and we carry on without wasting time feeling smug over petty nonsense.

That rarely happens though, because I mostly do large pulls; there usually isn't anything ahead for DPS to pull, even if they wanted to.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

If a DPS tries doing that while I'm tanking, I rip hate from them immediately and we carry on without wasting time feeling smug over petty nonsense.

That rarely happens though, because I mostly do large pulls; there usually isn't anything ahead for DPS to pull, even if they wanted to.

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Agree with this, although I will never pull ahead of the tank to me it is ridiculous to waste everyone's time in the group by sitting there doing nothing on purpose to try to teach that person a "lesson".

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

If a DPS tries doing that while I'm tanking, I rip hate from them immediately and we carry on without wasting time feeling smug over petty nonsense.

That rarely happens though, because I mostly do large pulls; there usually isn't anything ahead for DPS to pull, even if they wanted to.

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That happened once to me, facepulled on accident and the tank let me die. I went back to the beginning and waited there until they were done killing the pack of mobs. They asked me why I didn't come back until after the group was dead, I told them, "the tank let me die on purpose" I obviously wasn't needed for that group of mobs, so I let you three kill them."

Tank wasn't very happy about getting a lesson, while trying to teach a lesson. What made it all the better was the tank died on the last mob.

I love prima donna tanks who won't pick up aggro at all if someone even accidentally pulls a mob and start giving the group attitude. I will just say that if they don't want to tank, they can leave or they can get kicked, I have a full FC/LS who would love to come enjoy an in progress que. If a dps is just constantly pulling and it's making the pulls messy etc. A similar response is in order.

To the OP's topic just talk to the tank. Some are hesitant, some aren't yet comfortable and it's better to engage them and see if they don't mind trying more or if they have a legitimate reason to go a bit slower. If the only issue in the dungeon is a slower than average pull speed, I count me DF blessings and just roll with it.

Just to get back to the original topic....how do I deal with sluggish tanks? When I'm not tanking, as a dps, I dps the shit out of those mobs. I dance or talk to party members during downtime. And I wait to use cooldowns until after the pull, because why risk losing them if they might not be used?

I know everyone likes to cite their precious time for not wanting slow runs, but if I'm not tanking, I already know going in that I've signed up to go at the tank's pace. And, if for whatever reason, they're not going as fast as I might like, I'm just gonna focus on my role and doing the best job I can as dps.