Brd/Mch was fixed, will BLM be fixed?

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Originally Posted by MeeDeggiThePunisher

I swear every boss has it out for me. "That BLM thinks it can cast Ley Lines during this fight. How cute!"

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The one in Alex 4 will wait until you are low on Astral timer and then take you for a ride :p

Astral Fire Duration Increase
Thunder 4 - Thundercloud giving extended Enochian by 5 seconds (so that using Thundercloud doesn't punish you)
Allow finish of B4/T4/F4 cast if the cast has started even if Enochian drops off
Fix of the F3-Gap-F4 bug.
Reduction of the Mana cost of F1 to be the same as F4 (so that using F1 instead of F4 doesn't double punish you)
Enochian refresh always fully refreshes Enochian

The base numbers are fine for the most part, theres just a number of huge QoL issues. Or just run another melee and provide more to the raid.

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Originally Posted by Issac

Except when, y'know, a fight demands so much damage evasion that people start giving you crap because you're parsing 10% less than the melee that can dance and combo all they desire.

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omg, Neverreap's last boss makes me wanna cry!!! >.<

but yeah, i don't think there's something wrong, most of the time we just need to manage our positions more carefully.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Astral Fire Duration Increase
Thunder 4 - Thundercloud giving extended Enochian by 5 seconds (so that using Thundercloud doesn't punish you)
Allow finish of B4/T4/F4 cast if the cast has started even if Enochian drops off
Fix of the F3-Gap-F4 bug.
Reduction of the Mana cost of F1 to be the same as F4 (so that using F1 instead of F4 doesn't double punish you)
Enochian refresh always fully refreshes Enochian

The base numbers are fine for the most part, theres just a number of huge QoL issues. Or just run another melee and provide more to the raid.

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We'll probably see the Enochain fix by 3.1

One QoL I would add is AF > Blizzard3 and UI > Fire3 on invulnerable mob strips AF/UI without putting the other up. Melee can combo off an invulnerable mob and build up their buffs, but if a mob goes invulnerable in the middle of my B3 cast I'm dead in the water.

I just want an extension for UI/AF timer and get our Stacks on cast, not hit. The enochian timer was never much of a problem for me especially during first cast duration (30s). Usually I have plenty of time to get B4 to refresh it on the dot, but I often get screwed: I'd envision the time to refresh my stacks, only dodge an AOE mid cast and my stacks falls off either at the near the end of my cast and doesn't refresh back to 3, or i completely lose it. It's annoying.

No buffs, just tweaks to the stack timers, and position of stack refresh (before vs after hitting the mobs).

Which... in effect is the same as adding 3 sec to the durations of AF, UI, and Enochian... Frankly either way works. Though yes, having personal effects be applied at the start of the cast rather than the end would be better in some ways.
I say in "some" ways because if F3 applied AF3 in the first 20% of the cast time, vs at about 80%, we would need to adjust the timing of the UI3 section, since we'd almost always clip UI3 before the 2nd regen tick...
Under Enoch this isnt really bad, as you'd do B3, probably not have enough mana for B4, use a filler or wait a bit for the 1st 66% tick, B4 which takes the full tick interval, and F3 at 100% mana.
Not under Enoch I think most of us are used to casting F3 before we're at full mana, and timing the tick such that if occurs halfway through the F3 cast, before we lose UI3.

So with that fix there will be some minor rotation changes... but yes it would help w/ managing Enoch greatly.
The other (potential) effect of having personal buffs apply near, or maybe even AT the start of the cast, is that you could (in theory) maintain stacks while moving.
You start the cast, get your stack, and the cast is interrupted so you still eat the GCD penalty. But now you can maintain or swap stacks on the run, and against an invulnerable target, since the stack application would no longer depending on the spell successfully landing.

All in all this would be a welcome change.

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Originally Posted by NozomiKei

For those saying things are fine, I have to question how good you are. Anyone can derp through the rotation to a degree, but actually maximizing your damage is now extremely difficult in the field.

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The fact that you are letting enochian fall off is not the fault of SE, this is user error. If you must move and enochian is about to drop then swiftcast+b4 or b3->swiftcast+b4 if not in umbral ice. On the other hand if you are still in Astral Fire with plenty of time on enochian then swift+f4 or a preemptive sharpcast+f1 with f3 proc when you have to move.Its about taking the smallest dps loss from movement by using the skills available to you. Personally i enjoy the added complexity and have had no issues missing any dps checks or optimizing my damage in the field. If it was easy would you still play??
The fact that your complaining shows that you don't know how to play BLM pre-3.0 or post. Pick another class mate.

As a disclaimer, I do not play BLM and do not pretend to fully understand the woes of BLM, but I do play alongside them, and while they originally complained about the changes when 3.0 came out, they have learned to adapt and are pulling strong DPS at the highest tiers in all content. I hear a lot of BLM complaining about Neverreap. Yes, it sucks for every class that must remain stationary. But does Neverreap really even matter? If you need Law, there is always fractal and Alex. Speaking of Alex, it is a joke currently as far as progression goes, but even considering Savage (assuming the fights are not too substantially different) it is still BLM friendly. Ravana Ex is BLM friendly, I've seen them pulling 1k+ DPS in there.

The major theme I've seen in these "wah I'm a BLM but it's hard now" threads is that BLM used to be a complete monkey class that you could faceroll and do good DPS. A lot of the people playing it probably liked it that way. Now that BLM requires some modicum of thought, planning and most importantly _skill_, BLMs are coming out of the woodwork to complain about the class issues.

Yes, there are some fairly minor QoL issues that could be improved on for BLM, but if you changed absolutely nothing, they would still be a good, competitive DPS class.

But if you don't like the playstyle of BLM, and you're woeful about it having changed so drastically from the derpfest that was the pre-HW BLM and actually having to put some effort into getting good output, I'm having a really hard time feeling sorry for you. You can always change to a Ninja.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

We'll probably see the Enochain fix by 3.1

One QoL I would add is AF > Blizzard3 and UI > Fire3 on invulnerable mob strips AF/UI without putting the other up. Melee can combo off an invulnerable mob and build up their buffs, but if a mob goes invulnerable in the middle of my B3 cast I'm dead in the water.

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No, they can't. Just today I got Garuda on my MNK from roulette and when trying to hit her while she's invuln, my stance stayed the same and I didn't get any of the buffs.

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Originally Posted by drizzle234

The fact that your complaining shows that you don't know how to play BLM pre-3.0 or post. Pick another class mate.

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I tend to agree. Though I wouldn't mind seeing some QoL adjustments to AF/UI timers, I still know how to play the class and can optimize DPS in any fight by using the tools we are given. Sharpcast, AM, Swiftcast, Surecast, Manawall, Manaward, and Ley Lines are a hell of a lot of tools that can all be used for keeping timers going. Learn the fights, learn to use all of your abilities and frankly, GIT GUD.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

As a disclaimer, I do not play BLM and do not pretend to fully understand the woes of BLM

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This probably should have stopped you from posting any of that. As someone who played both casters at top levels of content in 2.0, I found SMN far easier to "faceroll" than BLM. If you mess up one thing as a SMN, who cares? You still have lots of other spells, pets, and abilities keeping your DPS up there. Fix it and keep going. One mistake as a BLM and you'd watch your DPS tank. BLM difficulty wasn't in the rotation, it was in the management of movement and stances, something SMN didn't need to worry about nearly as much. If you just did the BLM rotation without perfecting the movement and stances, you were probably a pretty terrible BLM.

All that aside, BLM is now high risk for an average reward. Perfect Enochian rotations will still put us in the middle of the pack of other perfectly executed DPS rotations. However, there is extremely high risk for that average reward. The QoL changes HaroldSaxon proposed above are what I believe is needed to fix that.

Edit: To be clear, I'm advocating for reducing the risk, not increasing the reward.

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Originally Posted by Alym

This probably should have stopped you from posting any of that.

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Why, because I can't have an opinion based on observation and anecdote rather than first person experience? I need to personally be top tier BLM to have an opinion worth posting?

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Originally Posted by Alym

As someone who played both casters at top levels of content in 2.0, I found SMN far easier to "faceroll" than BLM. If you mess up one thing as a SMN, who cares? You still have lots of other spells, pets, and abilities keeping your DPS up there. Fix it and keep going.

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Ha. Yeah, OK. Maintaining top DPS was and is still heavily reliant on never messing up. Now more so than before. Sure, your DPS would not come to a full halt, but it was very easy to go from top dps to bottom dps simply by mis-managing a single Aetherflow stack or using Bane before Contation hit or popping Fester before Bio 1 landed, etc. Lots of little things caused big changes in DPS, and unless you were on top of your game, your output was mediocre at best.

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Originally Posted by Alym

One mistake as a BLM and you'd watch your DPS tank. BLM difficulty wasn't in the rotation, it was in the management of movement and stances, something SMN didn't need to worry about nearly as much. If you just did the BLM rotation without perfecting the movement and stances, you were probably a pretty terrible BLM.

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One very specific mistake and your DPS would tank. But it was not difficult to avoid.

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Originally Posted by Alym

All that aside, BLM is now high risk for average reward. Perfect Enochian rotations will still put us in the middle of the pack of other perfectly executed DPS rotations. However, there is extremely high risk for that average reward. The QoL changes HaroldSaxon proposed above are what I believe is needed to fix that.

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What do you consider average? Is Bard damage average? Is Dragoon damage average? BLM can output top tier DPS when played correctly, which is mostly a matter of knowing fights than it is the rotation, like it has always been. There is an added layer of depth now with Enochian, but it all still boils down to the same thing... knowing fights and executing properly with the understanding of how your ability timing syncs up with fight mechanics. It is high risk for high reward. Like practically every DPS class now. Dragoon fumbles a combo and their DPS will tank. SMN burns one too many Aetherflow stacks too early and Aethertrail falls off because of a phase change and DPS tanks, etc. If you want to play your class to the limit of their potential, there is always going to be high risk. But to say that being top dps is 'average reward' is a bit asinine.

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Originally Posted by Alym

Edit: To be clear, I'm advocating for reducing the risk, not increasing the reward.

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And I'm advocating that neither is necessary. BLM has the potential, it is simply a matter of player skill that is holding people back.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Why, because I can't have an opinion based on observation and anecdote rather than first person experience? I need to personally be top tier BLM to have an opinion worth posting?

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No. It's because, as you said yourself, you "do not pretend to fully understand the woes of BLM." If you don't understand them, why are you posting that they aren't real?

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Originally Posted by T0rin

It is high risk for high reward. Like practically every DPS class now.

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I'd hardly call it a high reward if every DPS is putting out numbers in the same 1000-1200 range. That's just a normal reward. Additionally, according to the reddit SMN theorycrafter, Hai Hai on Gilgamesh, SMN is now "low risk and high reward." You can find this on page 11 here under "Black Mage or Summoner? Revisited." It's stated at number 1 of the "I support this claim with the following reasons" part. Not every DPS class comes with the high risk that BLM does. I think BLM is probably the job with the highest risk at the moment.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

But to say that being top dps is 'average reward' is a bit asinine.

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BLM is not top DPS. It's average in the very literal sense. It's in the middle of DPS output for all DPS jobs.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

And I'm advocating that neither is necessary. BLM has the potential, it is simply a matter of player skill that is holding people back.

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Again, if you "do not pretend to fully understand the woes of BLM" then you probably shouldn't have a voice in whether or not those woes are real.

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Originally Posted by Alym

No. It's because, as you said yourself, you "do not pretend to fully understand the woes of BLM." If you don't understand them, why are you posting that they aren't real?

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I didn't say they aren't real, I'm saying they can be played around, evidenced by the BLM who are having good success, despite all of these supposed game breaking handicaps. Being able to adapt to a hardship and still succeed is different from being unable to adapt at all and failure being inevitable.

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Originally Posted by Alym

I'd hardly call it a high reward if every DPS is putting out numbers in the same 1000-1200 range. That's just a normal reward.

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It's normal reward if you assume they are under less risk than you are. Reality is that every class is under a fairly high level of risk when playing at the top of their potential. High risk with normal reward would be playing BLM as it is now and only pulling 700 DPS on an encounter where people are putting in equivalent effort and getting 1000+. The reality is that given roughly the same amount of effort and risk, BLM is getting up in the same ranges as other classes.

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Originally Posted by Alym

Additionally, according to the reddit SMN theorycrafter, SMN is now "low risk and high reward." You can find this on page 11 here under "Black Mage or Summoner? Revisited." It's stated at number 1 of the "I support this claim with the following reasons" part. Not every DPS class comes with the high risk that BLM does. I think BLM is probably the job with the highest risk at the moment.

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I read through all 70 or whatever pages of that document, and while it does serve as a good foundation of knowledge for newly minted or middling SMN, it is definitely lacking when it comes to the top 15-20% of SMN potential. Perfect execution requires juggling a lot of stuff, and is more than simply understanding the math of when to use Tri-Disaster or what not to cast during Deathwyrm Trance. Perfect execution is about knowing fights and understanding the flow and figuring out how to adapt a rotation to fit in with that flow while maintaining 100% uptime on dots and using cooldowns to burst at the proper moments. You can't really write a bunch of mathematical explanations to predict how long to hold onto a third Aetherflow charge to deal with a phase change without dropping Aethertrail stacks.

All of that aside, the guide does make some points in regards to BLM vs SMN, but they are one person's opinion, not fact, just because he wrote an extensive guide. I'm not trying to argue that BLM doesn't have a high amount of risk, I'm trying to argue that all classes have a high amount of risk... and that proper execution is what separates the good players from the average, and what allows BLM to be top tier instead of average. It may have more risk than other DPS classes, but isn't that always the case with some class? To say that BLM is in a league of their own when it comes to risk when dealing with top tier of output is just inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by Alym

BLM is not top DPS. It's average in the very literal sense. It's in the middle of DPS output for all DPS jobs.

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The problem here is an assumption being made regarding potential vs realized results. You're saying that BLM has a high level of risk (they do) and when perfectly executed only has average results, aka they cannot keep up with other top tier classes like Dragoon. Except that isn't true. It may be the case that _you_ cannot execute it well enough to get top tier DPS, or you don't know any BLM who can, but there exists a large universe of players outside of your small circle that are capable of executing and achieving top tier DPS. The BLMs pulling 1000+ DPS in Ravana Extreme, for example.

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Originally Posted by Alym

Again, if "do not pretend to fully understand the woes of BLM" then you probably shouldn't have a voice in whether or not those woes are real.

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Like I said, I never stated they weren't real. I'm not denying that there aren't some QoL issues. But to try to paint the picture that BLM is not a serviceable class simply because of this is untrue. It's not the same BLM as pre-3.0, but it is still a good class capable of top tier performance in the right hands. It is however a lot less tolerant for lesser skilled players than it was before. That's not necessarily bad, unless you're expecting it to be.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

I didn't say they aren't real, I'm saying they can be played around, evidenced by the BLM who are having good success, despite all of these supposed game breaking handicaps. Being able to adapt to a hardship and still succeed is different from being unable to adapt at all and failure being inevitable.

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We haven't seen a truly difficult fight yet. I try to imagine keeping Enochian up and doing acceptable DPS in a fight designed like T9. BLM would be at such a significant disadvantage compared to almost everyone else. I think this is the core of the complaints; BLMs can see this coming.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

To say that BLM is in a league of their own when it comes to risk when dealing with top tier of output is just inaccurate.

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And I would say that it is. You should level BLM to 60 and see for yourself.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Except that isn't true. It may be the case that _you_ cannot execute it well enough to get top tier DPS

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Personal attacks are not a good way to argue. Additionally, melee DPS are top tier because of their associated high risk. Sure, BLMs are good in Ravana. That doesn't change the fact that melee DPS have a higher DPS output and BLM's is average while also carrying a very high risk. BLM and SMN are close on a dummy, but increasing BLM DPS to match their risk makes them completely outclass SMN again, which no one wants. That's why I propose cutting back on BLM risk instead with QoL changes.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Like I said, I never stated they weren't real. I'm not denying that there aren't some QoL issues.

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Now we're getting somewhere. This is exactly what I stated in my first post: the QoL issues HaroldSaxon proposes are what is needed, in my opinion.

So I heard that I could come here and complain about BLM Dmg needing to be fixed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Sy89m5rrQ )

As a "Fixed!" Machinist I could not agree more can we bring them down to our level.

(pss... unless you are also maining a level 60 Machinist/Bard please don't say they are fixed k thxs)

This is beginning to show evidence of being unproductive. You obviously have your opinions and assumptions and will not be swayed.

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Originally Posted by Alym

We haven't seen a truly difficult fight yet. I try to imagine keeping Enochian up and doing acceptable DPS in a fight designed like T9. BLM would be at such a significant disadvantage compared to almost everyone else. I think this is the core of the complaints; BLMs can see this coming.

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So now we're in the game of predicting the future and laying hypothetical over actual implementation of the class and assuming that while things may be fine now, one day they won't be? We're not longer debating reality, right? We're debating a theoretical situation you assume is going to become reality, with no changes made between now and then. Ok, this is useful.

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Originally Posted by Alym

And I would say that it is. You should level BLM to 60 and see for yourself.

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I know enough highly skilled BLMs that are producing results, that play multiple DPS classes, whose word I trust, that I don't need to level BLM to 60 to see that it is feasibly capable of good results, because I've seen those parses with my own eyes. When these high skill BLMs tell me that, while different, BLM is definitely still playable and not unduly difficult, I believe them. When they put out great DPS, I trust that their skill is not in question. Perhaps this is just the right time for me to exit this particular debate, given that unless I'm going to claim to know all the nitty gritty of these issues firsthand, that having witnessed what is essentially contradictory to your claims is doing me nothing to prove a reality other than what you believe exists.

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Originally Posted by Alym

Personal attacks are not a good way to argue. Additionally, melee DPS are top tier because of their associated high risk. Sure, BLMs are good in Ravana. That doesn't change the fact that melee DPS have a higher DPS output and BLM's is average while also carrying a very high risk. BLM and SMN are close on a dummy, but increasing BLM DPS to match their risk makes them completely outclass SMN again, which no one wants. That's why I propose cutting back on BLM risk instead with QoL changes.

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I didn't personally attack you, I said it _may_ be the case. I don't know exactly where your opinions are rooted, nor does it particularly matter. I was simply postulating that your realm of experience is biasing your stance, and there exists players outside of your circle that are achieving results that go against the claims you make. The mere existence of these players and their claims that the class is not as difficult to execute as they thought a couple weeks ago, tells me that this is more of a personal skill issue (not your issue, necessarily) than a balance issue. A friend of mine switched back to BLM from DRG the other day simply because the DRG rotation was more difficult for him to master, whereas BLM is old hat to him.

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Originally Posted by Alym

Now we're getting somewhere. This is exactly what I stated in my first post: the QoL issues HaroldSaxon proposes are what is needed, in my opinion.

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I said that from the very beginning. I also said that if nothing changed, BLM would still be in a good place. I can't shake the feeling that BLM are all consciously or unconsciously pining for pre-HW days when things were a lot easier, and have not mentally conceded to their new reality. I doubt any of those changes will be implemented, but a month or two down the road, some BLMs will have adapted and become set apart from the average BLMs, and their risk will seem no different than any other. These very much seem like growing pains to me.

If it's a QoL fix, then by nature it's not necessary.

Whether or not you think the risk/reward ratio is on target, blm has the potential to put out viable numbers in all fights, and very competitive numbers in certain fights. It's not broken.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Whether or not you think the risk/reward ratio is on target, blm has the potential to put out viable numbers in all fights, and very competitive numbers in certain fights. It's not broken.

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I would agree with this, but probably in a more cynical way. "Well, at least it's not broken..." :)

Though, I do think the Thunder spell situation was not intentional and is probably broken. But the job overall? Well, it functions.

Edit: I do consider QoL changes to be essential for everyone. But that's a semantics game and I'm not really interested in playing it.

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Originally Posted by rpm7182

So I heard that I could come here and complain about BLM Dmg needing to be fixed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Sy89m5rrQ )

As a "Fixed!" Machinist I could not agree more can we bring them down to our level.

(pss... unless you are also maining a level 60 Machinist/Bard please don't say they are fixed k thxs)

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Wow, a dummy parse. Who would've seen that one coming. It's not like the majority of black mage problems are related to cast canceling and movement or anything. I wish classes had their own section and only account with lvl 60 of said class could post in their specific sections.

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Originally Posted by rpm7182

So I heard that I could come here and complain about BLM Dmg needing to be fixed. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Sy89m5rrQ )

As a "Fixed!" Machinist I could not agree more can we bring them down to our level.

(pss... unless you are also maining a level 60 Machinist/Bard please don't say they are fixed k thxs)

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They are fixed k thxs

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

If it's a QoL fix, then by nature it's not necessary.

Whether or not you think the risk/reward ratio is on target, blm has the potential to put out viable numbers in all fights, and very competitive numbers in certain fights. It's not broken.

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It's a QoL fix because it's not a buff or a nerf, but it's still necessary to the state of the class.

The amount of risk involved in the BLM rotation is significantly higher to perform mid-range DPS. In high tier content, it will get to the point where teams will ask the BLM to roll SMN instead, simply because it'll do more damage on the more movement heavy fights, has better AoE with all the new spells SMN got, and has less risk involved in its total rotation so a simple mess up doesn't cause you to lose to a DPS check. Simple QoL of fixes will make the risk lower, and the gap between the overall viability of the two caster classes becomes shorter. The reward is the same as it was before. There is no reason to be against these QoL fixes.

I mained monk for a long time, and a boss mechanic that made you lose greased lightning stacks was a dps loss, sure, but I was never locked out of greased lightning for 30seconds because of it.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

I mained monk for a long time, and a boss mechanic that made you lose greased lightning stacks was a dps loss, sure, but I was never locked out of greased lightning for 30seconds because of it.

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What's even worse, if you press the buff even 1 second too early you could be locked out of your abilities for almost a full minute! What a joke.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

One very specific mistake and your DPS would tank. But it was not difficult to avoid.

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Sometimes that "mistake" is random unavoidable damage interrupting your cast. You should've heard me when the A4 boss randomly fired a laser at me when I was casting B4, interrupted the cast, and made me lose Enochian.

I posted it in another thread but i think that would fix most thing, if not everything.
They could just take the easy way out.
Allow blm to cast fire IV and blizzard IV without enochian.
We still want enochian up for the damage boost but if it run out because of mechanics and movement. we lose 5% damage instead of 40-50%
The rotation dont change. Firestarters and thundercloud are worth using again.

I haven't levelled BLM to 60 yet, but I get what he's saying. It's similar to the major problem Dragoons are having with Wheeling Thrust and Geirskogul. Gameplay should be fun, not just about it working in spreadsheets like WoW. Increasing Astral Fire/Umbral Ice duration doesn't even sound remotely overpowered or even a DPS increase to me. Also the thing about using Enochian before its duration expires sounds weird and incredibly stupid to me too.

I do sympathize with the fact that it's very difficult to determine just HOW punishing movement should be for casters. It's a tough and touchy subject. Movement should impair casters, but it does sound like BLM is punished far too much for it, similar to DRG and its new positional abilities, but way worse than that. It doesn't matter if BLM is balanced overall, like if, for example, you made their DPS 150% of normal while not moving and 50% when they have to move some. That may be balanced, but it's probably going to make the player feel stressed and awful.