BRD/MCH Fixed!

I honestly feel like dps without WM active.. is better ... just wiped on last boss of Aery.. cause DPS was just shy.. when I use WM.. when I went full mobile mode... we had no issues.

I can't wait till the parses start coming out, so we can see the hard numbers.

People's perceptions will always be clouded by heresay, especially when the vocal minority trips over their mouse cords rushing to get on message boards and make proclamations. Maybe I'm just lucky to be on a server that has not seen any MCH hate outside of idle banter in Idle-shire. Nearly every Ravana EX has a slot open for MCH and those that do not have a BRD. I have not been in any DF dungeons where anyone leaves due to me being a MCH and the stigma only drove me to perform better and any failure is taken as a "me-problem" and not a MCH issue. Was our dmg on the low side? Yes and I welcome the tune up. Does the change in playstyle bother me? No, because nearly every job got shaken up by change (except maybe PLD). GB/WM gained a "free" Rapid Fire and the time spent in those stances are not really that drastic a change. If anything, the extra oGCD skills gave us more tools for dmg other than spamming Split/Heavy ad nauseum until proc or BL reset.

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Originally Posted by Odowla

why are we still pretending it was a damage loss

everyone just sucked at using it so it looked like a loss, lol

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The only time it wasn't a damage loss is when you could cast every ability (and by that, I mean not using feint) at 100% uptime and use blanks off cooldown... Which amounts to around a 1-3% dps increase over not using GB, and at a loss when rapid fire bug existed and you instant GB for wildfire's burst.

Yawns, sorry well I don't play bard. Sorry if it feels like I'm trolling but I always hated the most mobile class. Hence why I play DRG (^_^)/ , But kinda glad with Heavy Heart it happened to you guys semi nerf semi buff you know. I guess some L2P skill is involved now. Have a great day (^_^)/

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Originally Posted by CrazyViet228

Yawns, sorry well I don't play bard. Sorry if it feels like I'm trolling but I always hated the most mobile class. Hence why I play DRG (^_^)/ , But kinda glad with Heavy Heart it happened to you guys semi nerf semi buff you know. I guess some L2P skill is involved now. Have a great day (^_^)/

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And dragoon requires any more skill than repeat a cycle of keys/macros and avoid aoes? Every class in this whole game is macros/key cycle. The only time you even do something different is when a boss switches a Phase and thats just repositioning.

I like the changes and all. 8 like that I can now add GB to my rotation and not lose DPS. But is it just me or does ricochet kinda suck now?

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Originally Posted by Thunda51

But is it just me or does ricochet kinda suck now?

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It was a hammer before the patch, it's still o-k, but YEESH, 100 less potency is steep.

But the 10% damage increase with GB allows MCH bring more consistent dps to the pt. Before this patch, it leaned too heavily on proc damage spikes. And that was weak.

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Originally Posted by Thunda51

I like the changes and all. 8 like that I can now add GB to my rotation and not lose DPS. But is it just me or does ricochet kinda suck now?

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Same happened to Sidewinder but meh trust me the dps of both got way better with the change. It was not needed to nerf a 1 min cd tho that to start with wasn't even that high compared to other stuff.

Are the bad BRDs still complaining that they don't have damage equal to a BLM and that they should be a full DPS class, despite YoshiP telling people BRD is a support class, whatever people's opinion?

And people still claiming they don't use songs?

My lord, you guys are just bad.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

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He's gone back and fourth from what I've seen in regards to what roles BRD/MCH brings. "They're not support dps! They're dps classes! oh wait, they're support DPS". At the end of the day, they still fill in a dps slot, and they already take a damage penalty anyway when they use their regen abilties.

Also, none of alexander atm (barring constant deaths and floor 2) require TP songs or mp songs. If savage were to maintain the basic concept of the current mechanics (that is, with all the phasing), it's very likely you won't need a TP song for those fights either. There's enough pauses inbetween every jump, every phase change, and every mortal revelation that I never had to swap my turret to TP.

You don't necessarily have to sing to be a good bard (or turret in case of MCH). The good ones know when it's needed and not incur unnecessary dps loss. And in current content, it's really not needed unless your healers are dying or ressing. This is the case even for foe req; you;d want it being used at the best time where your caster (esp BLM) has full uptime.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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Current content, I'll agree it doesn't need it. But a BRDs true worth isn't in easy mode stuff ( I mean, for god sake, you can DPS everything in that content quicker with 3 WARs and a healer)

I say, wait till Savage Alexander, see how the fights are. If it's true that you don't need to use any TP song or MP song (which I truly doubt to be fair), then we can have this discussion. But the main end game content up to this point, pre nerf, has always had a BRD in it where those songs have always been crucial to the fight.

Christ, I hate this post limit.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Are the bad BRDs still complaining that they don't have damage equal to a BLM and that they should be a full DPS class, despite YoshiP telling people BRD is a support class, whatever people's opinion?

And people still claiming they don't use songs?

My lord, you guys are just bad.

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I'm not yelling at you directly, but WHY DOES EVERYONE KEEP SAYING THIS!!!!!

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Did everyone forget that BRDs receive a 15% damage loss every time we sing ballad or paeon? WE ARE ALREADY BEING PENALIZED FOR OUR SUPPORT ROLE IN THE PARTY!

Previously our lower base DPS was fine. We could make up for it with our great mobility by having no downtime(or very little) on our DPS in comparison to other DPS.

Now however, WM adds casting time to our skills which no longer allows for this great mobility unless stance dancing constantly. Which, depending on the fight could be problematic with the 15 second cool down on WM. And despite this, we still don't have the same damage output as other DPS (Now this is the important part so listen up) WHEN NOT SINGING AND STANDING COMPLETELY STILL.

Last time I checked NIN doesn't get a % DPS loss for the entire uptime of Suiton. DRG doesn't get a % DPS loss for the entire uptime of their crit buff. Etc, Etc.

I don't really post much but from what I'm seeing here and on reddit, the Bard community is split. Half of us want to be pure DPS and the other half wants to lean more towards support. To be honest, I've always hated the hybrid idea, and so I lean more towards the dps side. I think Yoshi-P and company need to do what they are avoiding and implement specialization, as to give players much more freedom and utility. I've been maining bard for a year now, and this is honestly the most dissatisfied I've been with it. I like my gun and run style, and I accepted my lower dps and songs in exchange for the style I actually enjoy.

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Originally Posted by AnnietheCat

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TBH there needs to be more than 3 roles. I'm not sure how they can go about that with 4-8 man parties unless you go into Alliances. Tank, Healer and Dps are the current roles. You need healers to keep the Tanks alive and DPS to finish the fight. Support on the other hand is either thrown in kits of the 3 without reducing the effectiveness of their role(usually). The problem is now Support and DPS is butting heads. You aren't a DPS if you're not doing dps. It comes down to how viable support is. TBH atm it seems you can complete most dungeons without Bard or Machinst.

If you add a new support Class you will need to reduce the health/etc of the mobs to compensate the dps loss but Also make sure Support is needed to get past certain dungeon aspects. Which imo just won't happen for content that has already been released. It would require to much time and a Over haul. I say have all this "support" go straight to the Healer. OR add a new soul crystal for Archer and have it become Ranger. This alone would fix this issue.

Arcanist goes from DPS to Healer with Scholar or stays on the DPS route with SMN.

The whole point of soul crystals was to switch professions. I heard the are going away from it but...tbh Soul crystals are really the best way. It allows a Class to go a different route with a different playstyle. In fact I honestly imo thought Machinst should have been a soul crystal for Archer.

I hate this post limit.

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Originally Posted by ScarecrowJames

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Don't quote me, but I believe Yoshi-P once said in an interview that if they were to add a whole new role into the game like support, then future content would need to have an increase on how many members are needed. Like in dungeon roulette, it would be increased to 5 (Tank/Healer/DPSx2/Support) and 10 for raids/primals (Tankx2/Healerx2/DPSx4/Supportx2). Which could work I suppose, but honestly it feels pointless to me to go with something like this. Would it bother me if it did? No. I simply just don't want something like this thrown in unless SE has a really good plan behind them on how they can change the whole dynamic of the game as we have it now for the better.

Also, MCH buffs are definitely there and welcomed. Hitting much higher numbers than I did pre-3.01. As someone who played a Hunter in WoW, the cast bar does not bother me at all and actually easier to work with than some may lead you to believe otherwise. I would ask anyone who are more reluctant to use it to try it out more and let it sink in, you might actually end up liking it.

you guys did notice alex has a lot of multi target situations which bard can exploit with dots and ironjaw right? Bards wont be far behind melee in there. Theres already 1k+ parses. So no, even if our songs aren't needed, guess what, we still do good damage in there.

And just to guess....alex savage will be similar multi target situations, with a truck of mechanics thrown on top. Now lets see what class was least affected by mechanics again.....

In fact optimal group will be 3 smns and a brd I'm pretty sure. seen one smn parse 1400, multi target doting is just so godly.


Really, let this rant end already.

You know what's better than a support class? a pure dps class helping kill the boss 2x faster.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Can't DPS if you're dead.

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I guess you could go to the black mages for tips on how to cast abilities during boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

You know what's better than a support class? a pure dps class helping kill the boss 2x faster.

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Yeah thats the problem. Dungeons atm don't really need support. They just need dps to deal damage. The whole issue is its just faster to take other dps over Bard/Mach.When You select the DPS role you are expecting to do DPS. If you are supporting...Then you aren't dps'ing.

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Originally Posted by Adventica6

You know what's better than a support class? a pure dps class helping kill the boss 2x faster.

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Which like I said, you would have to make drastic changes to how the game works to make support an appropriate role.

I think the jobs are closer to being where they need to be with the 3.01 adjustments. There are a couple things that I'd like to see addressed:
1) BRD/MCH should not be affected by "Seeing" moves in Ravana Ex just as other casters are unaffected
2) Foe Req/Promoted Bishop should affect damage when GB/WM are equipped.
3) Bring back procs for BRD AOE and add a proc to MCH AOE.

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Originally Posted by RhaegarFFXIFenrir

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1. Seeing moves affect weaponskills. As far as I'm concerned, machinist and bard can work around this very easily due to the amount of pauses inbetween each seeing, with the exception of warlord shell (then you'd probably be better off turning off WM/GB for that specific point, since you can easily swap back into WM/GB afterwards)

2. Huh? I think you're getting something confused here. Foe Req reduces magic resistance, a promoted bishop regens mana.

3. Please no. The procs for BRD aoe was utterly worthless and it was always better to just spam quick notch if you could position it. Both their AoE is fine (if not one of the stronger ones, esp MCH) with WM/GB.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

1. Seeing moves affect weaponskills. As far as I'm concerned, machinist and bard can work around this very easily due to the amount of pauses inbetween each seeing, with the exception of warlord shell (then you'd probably be better off turning off WM/GB for that specific point, since you can easily swap back into WM/GB afterwards)

2. Huh? I think you're getting something confused here. Foe Req reduces magic resistance, a promoted bishop regens mana.

3. Please no. The procs for BRD aoe was utterly worthless and it was always better to just spam quick notch if you could position it. Both their AoE is fine (if not one of the stronger ones, esp MCH) with WM/GB.

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I think she means Hypercharge Bishop Turret, in which case, no still doesn't make much sense as Mch and Brd do physical non-elemental damage.

i can understand the complaining about BRD mobility, since the class had full mobility for ~2 years until SE throws you guys a curveball, but what's the deal with MCH mobility complaints? this is a job that was released with their low-mobility stance, which shows as gauss barrel is frankly better designed and doesn't really sacrifice THAT much mobility. really now, nobody was a MCH main before 3 weeks ago, and you all knew what gauss barrel was and what you were getting yourselves into - it just doesn't make sense to lump MCH in with BRD for these mobilty complaints.

i dropped leveling bard for MCH so i havent gotten it past 50, but i'd say they actually have a case -- compared to GB's more natural integration, WM seems like it was tacked on hastily.

this'll never happen, but something neat that they COULD do is change WM entirely to an insta cast, long cooldown song that grants a groupwide buff that allows casting while moving for a short period of time, while obviously removing the WM requirements on the other abilities. bam, just like that problem is solved (?). BRD has lower DPS but amazing utility abilities (and simply fantastic synergy with casters in general), and MCH has higher DPS/lower mobility while still having the baseline TP/MP regen abilities (alongside Rend Mind/Dismantle, if those ever prove to be useful).

Awesome burn!


"What does a bard do?
... the bard I would speak of is one born from a battle-hardened archer--one who sings his/her songs in the heat of combat to inspire his/her comrades to ever greater feats of martial prowess. ... the archer does the only thing he/she can: he/she sings. And in that raw melody resides the power to stir the souls of men. That, my friend, is the true definition of a bard, and one that few now remember."[/QUOTE]

It's definitely better than it was. I tried full gauss barrel on the other night in alexander and i was like on par with everyone else. it was with my static raid group not DF crap.

Dps after the fix has been increased significantly. Its much more balanced. Look at it this way, do you want 10% more dmg on all your other skills, or 100 more potency on the 1min cd skill that hardly ever lines up with anything. The potency loss is not even that big due to the 10% extra on gb.

I pick the change any day. Only thing I have problems with is the horrible proc rate on the combo. It doesn't feel like 50% at all.

I agree with some people that GB seems to be designed for MCH, not bard. I would not mind a WM change to make the classes less of a copy of one another. MCH mobility is perfectly fine. MCH fits the more stationary style with the big gun. Bard should be more mobile.

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Originally Posted by HairyRoger

Dps after the fix has been increased significantly.

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It doesn't change the fact that these jobs have now become bow-mage and gun-mage after 2 years (in bard's case) and 50 levels of a completely different play style.

They are better than 3.0, but not-as-bad is still bad.

Playing a support character it would have been nice to actually have support moves that aren't worse than the other dd's. I play with a summoner, ninja and dragoon most of the time and I rely on drg debuff for extra damage not me applying for the drg. If the tank needs tp the ninja quickly throws it him. If it goes badly the summoner steps in to revive, he also lowers the enemy dps on big moves with virus more than me..
When we need to do fast dps the dragoon uses battle litany for massive boosts. I just sit on the side doing dps.

I just came back from a long hiatus near the end of 2.0 I'm mostly only interested in the raids and what not. What exactly happened to the class to make it so hated? Is the dps terrible now or is the hate based on it being a turret stance? How does the class preform outside of said stance compared to the other classes? Is it viable atm in raids or am I better off gearing up and rolling dragoon/monk? (repeat from another thread, just want an answer)

Yep. BRD and MCH both suck. You all should go play DRG. Please. If anything, it'll stop your incessant whining

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Originally Posted by ChloeGrace

It doesn't change the fact that these jobs have now become bow-mage and gun-mage after 2 years (in bard's case) and 50 levels of a completely different play style.

They are better than 3.0, but not-as-bad is still bad.

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As I said in the post, I think bard should be more mobile. MCH has not become anything, it just came out. We are meant to be a gun-mage and I feel that is how it should be. The two should be different in that sense. I agree with GB and MCH, I don't agree with WM and bard, as stated. BRD needs to be more mobile than MCH.

I don't think we are fine, but we did get better. I do not, however, think the two classes require the same fixes to be where they should. What they did now was fix the thing that hurt both classes. Any fix directed towards each one will take more time.

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Originally Posted by Rivez

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I have to agree. Would be fun if the support penalty didn't only apply to MCH / BRD. I have no problems with a support penalty when using the support abilities tho.

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Originally Posted by HairyRoger

MCH has not become anything, it just came out.

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Surely you can see the parallels between MCH and BRD though. It's not totally outlandish for comparisons to be made. That said though, why? If SE has beef with the BRD style of free moving ranged dps why isn't MCH just cast times to begin with? Does no one communicate at SE? -_-

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Originally Posted by ParanoidHobo

Surely you can see the parallels between MCH and BRD though. It's not totally outlandish for comparisons to be made. That said though, why? If SE has beef with the BRD style of free moving ranged dps why isn't MCH just cast times to begin with? Does no one communicate at SE? -_-

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That is indeed the question. I can ofc see the parallels, but I just think they are too similar. Giving BLM "inferno trance" at the expense of "inferno stacks" and have them deplete it with "infernosomething" would be equally silly in my opinion.

I just think they are two different classes filling the same role with emphasis on different. Giving both the same mechanic with different names is lazy. MCH fits GB, bard does not fit WM. Just my opinion and has nothing to do with WM being good or not. Turning it on and off adds variety to the gameplay, which is good. If they wanted brd to stand still they could have done it in many ways : /

I think the changes are good. The burst is great and it still levels out nicely. People who say it is garbage do not know what they are talking about and have not played it effectively to see the difference.

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Originally Posted by Garan

Did everyone forget that BRDs receive a 15% damage loss every time we sing ballad or paeon? WE ARE ALREADY BEING PENALIZED FOR OUR SUPPORT ROLE IN THE PARTY!

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Hmm. DPS loss huh? Sure, 15% damage down when we sing Ballad/Paeon, I can see that. When we sing these 2 songs, yes, our numbers are reduced. But how often do we actually have to sing these? Allow me to indulge you with an example from my first few Alexander runs in the Duty Finder. In all 4 turns, I only had to sing in 2 of them; one Paeon in A2 and a Ballad in A4. Now, did I have to empty my mana reserves? No, in fact I merely had to sing for the duration of Battle Voice before TP/MP were once again at comfortable levels. Did my damage take a hit? Of course. But was this a dps loss? Let me ask you, is a dead tank or dps a dps loss? Is a lack of TP for several classes a dps loss? We take the hit so that The Raid does not. Is 15% a lot? Not Really, and I will explain why down below.

As I stated before I had to sing for about 30 seconds, the duration of Battle Voice. During these 30 seconds, I had Wanderer's Minuet up, because I am of the mind that it is a good skill. I like the damage increase. Movement isn't an issue because I didn't run around like a neanderthal previously. The playstyle is minimalistically different. Oh wow, I need to stand still to use a skill! Let me do that like I have always done. Oh no! I have an ability I can use! Let me just use this 1 second of freedom before my GCD is available again. Egad! An aoe marker has appear at my feet! Whatever shall I do!? Oh, hang on, I can move out of it preemptively because just like BLM we are able to move as our casts come to an end without interrupting them, not to mention that second where I can also activate an ability.

WM increases your damage by 30%. So, if I have to Ballad/Paeon, with WM up I am still dealing more damage than I would be without WM. Pre 3.0 it was always a loss to support the party, but now we have the opportunity to negate this and even overcome it. Mobility is not an issue with some practice, we've seen inside of Alexander, nothing in there is even remotely difficult to dodge or avoid. And please tell me how on earth we have lost our 100% uptime; I'd love to hear from you about this point in particular. With WM being at 30%, there is no question that is does more than enough to compensate for the loss of Autoattacks now (which by the way many of these were often squandered by the Bards who loved running around without at least facing the target or locking on), and all of our attacks are much stronger for it.