The completely REASONABLE changes to the Dark Knight job thread

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Originally Posted by Falgern

Seems to be something related to dark knights, a lot of dark knights abilities have a long CD for no reason, shadow wall being 180 seconds, and it's worse than Vengeance. Carve and split, 1 minute cd for a 450 dmg attack. Reprisal, 30 second cd for the same type of debuff as Storm's Path which is just a normal combo spell.

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I speculate the CD for Shadow Wall is so high due to Dark Mind existing. When boosted with DA, it's the equivalent of Sentinel only for magic attacks, and is only on a 60s CD and can stack with the other mitigation debuffs.

Reprisal is the equivalent of SP but Delirium should be seen as the regular combo debuff a la Rage of Halone's STR down. Reprisal is just an extra ability when DRK is MT, clunky as it is currently.

Boosted Drk mind does the exact same thing as Shadow wall so long as you are taking specifically magical damage, on a third of the cooldown.
You can do 3 Dark minds for every 1 Sentinel/Shadow Wall. Its in its own world given SHadow wall already basically directly copies Sentinel outside of the 10% less. Which is kind of why you prioritize a Drk over Pld...big magical hits where the Drk has more frequent mitigation tools to deal with those. On physical hits he doesn't, but Pld does...hurrah we have a tank that excels @ magical, 1 that excels at Physical and 1 that doesn't really care or at least War didn't until Raw intuition said "Do u like parries?"

Drk isn't in mitigation trouble. Its not in aggro trouble from the info im hearing about their enmity and they aren't in damage trouble either. Its if their more "selfish" tanking is worth dropping PLD's support.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

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Shadow Wall is 30%, Sentinel is 40%. Vengeance is 30%, 120 second cooldown and longer duration as well as giving a stack of wrath. Shadow Wall is the worst out of the three abilities. There is no reason for the long CD.
Paladin's Spirits Within is a 30 second off global with 300 potency, Carve and Spit is 450 potency and costs mana, or 100 potency and gives a minor amount of mp. And there is little point in using Carve & Spit for the mp due to it just giving the same amount as Siphon Blade
I do like Dark Mind, it's a nice spell, Dark Dance is complete garbage for anything other than trash.
Most tank busters are physical, paladin and warrior can have at least one cooldown up every 30 seconds. dark knight is closer to 50 seconds. Give Dark Dance a physical damage reduction, like 20%, as the Dark Arts effect and dark knights would have the same possibility as warrior and paladin to mitigate damage.

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Originally Posted by MuzakFan

I speculate the CD for Shadow Wall is so high due to Dark Mind existing. When boosted with DA, it's the equivalent of Sentinel only for magic attacks, and is only on a 60s CD and can stack with the other mitigation debuffs.

Reprisal is the equivalent of SP but Delirium should be seen as the regular combo debuff a la Rage of Halone's STR down. Reprisal is just an extra ability when DRK is MT, clunky as it is currently.

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While I don't like double posting the 1000 char limit is quite.. limiting.

There is no reason why Reprisal can't have a 100% uptime. Warrior has a 100% uptime of Storms Path as well as having access to Storm's Eye. Let there be a 100% uptime of it and not stack with Storms Path. There shouldn't be a case of "Oh I missed the proc window, now everyone will take 10% more damage".

If Dark Dance was better I wouldn't mind the long cooldown of Shadow wall, as it would give us access to proper cooldowns for every tank buster.

Carve and Spit should be 30 second CD.
Reprisal should be 20 second CD.
Shadow Wall should be 120 second CD.
Dark Dance should be 25% Evasion for 15 seconds. No Dark Arts required (Problem is, its a temp buff, you have to rely on it.. terrible idea.)
Blood Weapon shouldn't require Grit.

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Originally Posted by Falgern

Paladin's Spirits Within is a 30 second off global with 300 potency, Carve and Spit....

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What a weird comparison to make given Dark Passenger & Salted Earth are far more apt comparisons to SW then C&S. Given C&S is another Mana refill.

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Most tank busters are physical, paladin and warrior can have at least one cooldown up every 30 seconds. dark knight is closer to 50 seconds.

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Not all are. Unless you're aiming to count for Shelltron as your immediate defensive cooldown , Pld has no more access to % mitigation Cooldowns then Drk. You have Rampart & Sentinel vs Shadow skin & Shadow wall. One could say Clemency but they can just as simply be responded with by Drk Mind, or the reality that as a MT, Reprisal is 10% dmg down for 66% of the time unless they ignore Parry...which is typically magic bosses which...Drk mind covers...

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Give Dark Dance a physical damage reduction, like 20%, damage.

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Wtf. Stahp

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Carve and Spit should be 30 second CD.
Reprisal should be 20 second CD.
Shadow Wall should be 120 second CD.
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Reprisal on 20 sec cd would make it have downtime, 15 second cd and it would have 5 seconds where you can reapply the debuff without it running out, making it work better.

Evasion doesn't work with our other skills, and requiring dark arts to cover for a tank buster isn't bad. Warriors need 5 stacks of wrath to do inner beast, it takes us less time to get enough mp to do dark arts.


I really want to see a TP refresh on blood price as we are already having problems with tp.

Blood Weapon could work a bit different during Grit, possibly a 25% life steal instead of the 10% attack speed. Our damage and threat is good enough, more life steal fits with the concept of the class and isn't really going to make the ability overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

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Dark Passenger is currently a waste of mana if you are tanking.

I made the comparison because Spirits Within is the same as C&S, a single target nuke.

C&S is a 450 potency attack, the MP gain is so minor it's not even worth it.

Sheltron is a defensive cooldown It has a guaranteed block on the next attack. Block is currently 25% damage reduction and you can block nearly all tank busters

Dark Mind only works on magical Most tank busters have been physical, there has been some magical.


Reprisal has the same amount (-10%) as warrior does with a 100% uptime, it also relies on parry, which isn't guaranteed.



20% physical damage reduction for a low duration, lets say 6 seconds, on Dark Arts + Dark dance, would be the equal to Inner Beast, which Warrior usually uses together with other cooldowns. It's not overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Falgern

While I don't like double posting the 1000 char limit is quite.. limiting.

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You can edit your post after the initial submit to get around the limit, btw.

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There is no reason why Reprisal can't have a 100% uptime. Warrior has a 100% uptime of Storms Path as well as having access to Storm's Eye. Let there be a 100% uptime of it and not stack with Storms Path. There shouldn't be a case of "Oh I missed the proc window, now everyone will take 10% more damage".

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I don't know, both reprisal and delirium together are pretty strong especially for magic focused bosses. I am okay with the limitations of reprisal but I would like applying it while MT to be much more reliable. Having it not stack with Path seems like more of a nerf to DRK/WAR tank combos more than anything.

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If Dark Dance was better I wouldn't mind the long cooldown of Shadow wall, as it would give us access to proper cooldowns for every tank buster.

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Dark Dance is designed to be physical only like Bulwark or Foresight, to help overall mitigation between the tank busters. DRK gets more out of the parries due to our other skills getting procs from them, the problem is the extra evasion bonus is counter to DRK's strengths and isn't worth blowing MP on. It could use a small buff so that it's more consistent and is worth boosting with DA.

Much of the problem with our current speculation is that we're trying to apply encounters in 2.0 to how we think Alex will work when no one really knows. Tank busters, if they will even be present the same way in 3.x, could function differently. Certain bosses could alternate physical and magical tank busters, in which case DRK could pop Dark Mind for the magical ones between Shadow Skin and Shadow Wall. So it would have an answer for every attack; we just don't know.

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Originally Posted by MuzakFan

I don't know, both reprisal and delirium together are pretty strong especially for magic focused bosses. I am okay with the limitations of reprisal but I would like applying it while MT to be much more reliable. Having it not stack with Path seems like more of a nerf to DRK/WAR tank combos more than anything.

Dark Dance is designed to be physical only like Bulwark or Foresight, to help overall mitigation between the tank busters. DRK gets more out of the parries due to our other skills getting procs from them, the problem is the extra evasion bonus is counter to DRK's strengths and isn't worth blowing MP on. It could use a small buff so that it's more consistent and is worth boosting with DA.

Much of the problem with our current speculation is that we're trying to apply encounters in 2.0 to how we think Alex will work when no one really knows. Tank busters, if they will even be present the same way in 3.x, could function differently. Certain bosses could alternate physical and magical tank busters, in which case DRK could pop Dark Mind for the magical ones between Shadow Skin and Shadow Wall. So it would have an answer for every attack; we just don't know.

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I don't mind the parry limitation of reprisal, but I would prefer to have a close to 100% uptime. At the moment you can't time it for bigger attacks, either possibility of 100% uptime or the ability should be on demand.


Delirium is already covered by monks and reprisal doesn't work unless the boss is hitting you, which magical bosses might not do. dark knights simply don't have an unique debuff to bring to the group.


Paladins got Sheltron and Bulwark for physical, Warriors have Raw Intuition. Sheltron is guaranteed block, bulwark is close to 100% block, raw intuition is guaranteed parry. Dark dance increases parry chance by 30% Quite ridiculous how they can be thought of as balanced. Foresight has generally been seen as the worst defensive cooldown as it only provides 5% mitigation, but all tanks have it.


While we haven't seen any alexander content, we can look at what spells both warrior and paladin got, and both of their new CDs were for physical damage Dark knights are just missing that guaranteed safety for physical attacks that the other tanks have.

And Pld is missing Drks ability to cover magical damage. Not that Pld can't cover Magical, Drks just *better* at it.
This is a moot point, The two damage types are physical and magical, which is more relevant is based entirely on the encounters of the dungeon/raid/trial which is set case by case. For progression general mitigation is near irrelevant when we're tanking in Deliverance/Sword Oath/Gritless. Given the main 'competitive' content will be coming out next week, the relevancy of Phys and Magical going forward will be brought out then.

Drk dance isn't a mere 30% parry. Its 30% Parry, 20% evasion in proper useage, which achieves the same role of Bulwark as mitigation when attacked with high frequency especially in the context of a notably shorter CD.
Granted PLD is the stronger mitigation tank in general when it comes to phys due to having Shield. Drk isn't aiming to be as efficient as PLD passively, neither is warrior as both lack a shield to mitigate that passive advantage.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Drk dance isn't a mere 30% parry. Its 30% Parry, 20% evasion in proper useage, which achieves the same role of Bulwark as mitigation when attacked with high frequency especially in the context of a notably shorter CD.
Granted PLD is the stronger mitigation tank in general when it comes to phys due to having Shield. Drk isn't aiming to be as efficient as PLD passively, neither is warrior as both lack a shield to mitigate that passive advantage.

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Only useful against trash mobs. Not against bosses and raid content. Dark Dance is a pretty worthless ability atm. Which is why I've suggested they change it to a damage absorption shield and the dark arts version adding damage reflection.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

While I understand WAR's with triple fell cleaves can do insane levels of damage, has anyone actually looked at the DRK numbers? They throw out a ton of high-potency abilities. Hell, spending 8 GCDs, the best case scenario for both attacks to launch a spiked Souleater or Fell Cleave, has the DRK a mere ~10 potency behind the WAR across all skills, and this is before factoring in Scourge, which crushes Fracture on potency per cast, Salted Earth, which the Warrior does not have an equivalent to, and Carve and Spit, which may as well serve as infuriate, which is only 50 potency behind an infuriate into fell cleave, but it is off the global cooldown.

The DRK is deceptive in its damage, but it is putting out a lot of it all the same.

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War's damage buffs are what put them ahead in damage. Well, as well as the fact that they now have a way to restore their TP. Drk's have no damage buffs other than Darkside, which is nice and all, but doesn't quite compete with a skilled Warrior. Drk's can definitely do a lot of damage sure, but I feel the reason most people are pointing the damage difference out is because that is yet another reason someone may choose a War over a Drk.

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Originally Posted by DeboNA

I've seen all tanking classes, clear all the content currently available. The Alexander Raid isn't out yet, and that will be the real big test. However a lot of people are jumping to conclusions w/o submitting the proper data, and or performing proper testing to conclude why their <insert class> needs a buff, or changes.

It has been 5 days sense the official release, and 9 days since the early release. I think people just need to get their 170/180 gear sets, learn how to properly manage cool-downs, and perform correct dps/threat rotations. Then when Alexander we will see how the tanking classes stack up against one another.

But I feel a lot of the people complaining, or asking for buffs for any class, haven't really attempted to push their class to its limits, or actually put in the effort to really learn their class.

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That is more than long enough for someone to understand the ins and outs of a class, especially people who tanked prior to Heavensward. I've been tanking since the start, as both a Paladin and a Warrior, and am now a Drk Main, with everything in the game currently cleared including Ravana EX, that of which I MT completely fine. Sure as hell cant solo tank it yet, but that's more due to it being a completely physical fight, and only having 2 reliable cd's for physical damage. One of which has an obnoxious cooldown for what it does.

But the "Everything can be done so stop whining" excuse is as old as Warriors. Just because a class can participate in a fight, and win that fight, doesn't revoke the right for anyone to voice their opinion on HOW that class performed during that fight. Drk has a very high skill cap, but no pay off in the end. Less damage than Warrior, less utility than Warrior, less mitigation than Paladin, and if the rumors of how Paladins are currently doing as much DPS as Warriors holds true, then we have less damage than Paladins as well. (Haven't been able to confirm this yet) We also have less utility than paladins, even in an OT position.

Their tanking style is very, very, very selfish, by the job itself. Though then again, it's hard to say whether their tanking style is selfish, or is just lacking, because enough selfishness in tanking can still help clear things. The lack of things however helps no one.

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On a side note, to a lot of these posts of people saying whatever:

Rampart = Shadowskin
Sentinel > Shadow Wall
Bulwark > Dark Dance
Dark Mind = ??? // I feel as though 15% isn't much at all, but it's low CD can justify that. I still only find it worth using however under the effect of Dark Arts.

- Carve And Spit is NOT worth using without Dark Arts, as it only deals a SINGLE 100 potency attack, and only replenishes an equivalent amount of MP a Syphon Strike would. Contrary to what the tooltip says, it only hits once, not 3 times. As for it's cooldown, I feel it could be reduced to something like 40 seconds. If no change in it's cooldown, then actually make the skill hit 'THREEFOLD' like the description is saying it does. FUnny how they fixed the Sole Survivor tooltip, yet left C&S untouched.

- Most tank busters ARE physical. Going from previous Raids/Primals, majority is physical. To say otherwise is just ignorance at it's finest. This doesn't mean that they will continue this trend, but as is, it is all we have to base things on. And at the moment, unless those tank busters are split about 46+ seconds apart from one another, a Drk will not be able to keep up with Physical tank busters. Parry is the absolute worse kind of mitigation to rely on next to dodge, and it just so happens that both Warriors and paladins can parry as well, on top of what they can already do.

- Sheltron is essentially a Paladins at demand, one hit Inner Beast. Inner Beast is a Warriors Inner Beast. Drk doesn't have one of these.

- Living dead is essentially Holmgang without the root, or the need to be in melee range. Although ours definitely does last longer, and is a hell of a lot less forgiving in the activation part than Holmgang is. It however does have the consequence of instant death if your healers are derping around, or have no idea that you are even under walking dead from the start.

It has a 300 second cooldown, vs. Holmgangs 180 seconds. To try counting Living Dead as a regular mitigation skill is plain stupid. It's your "Oh crap I'm going to die" button, nothing else. We all have one of these, Hollowed, Holm, and now Living Dead. Doesn't matter how they're used. In cases for example of eating Akh Morns solo, that is just an extra benefit of not being able to die for that duration. They are still your panic buttons.

- Storms Path > Reprisal, whether it is off GCD or not. It's a utility skill, the damage it does doesn't really matter, and in terms of being able to apply it immediately due to it being off GCD, I've not once yet met a decent Warrior who didn't know how to prime a rotation to apply path exactly when it is needed. In Turn 11 for example after killing the adds.

And if that really IS the argument, then seriously? Reprisal can 1) ONLY be used after you parry. 2) can ONLY be used within a very, very short window.

Skills like these, oGCD or GCD does not matter, they are utility, and if you're at least half decent as the job you're playing, you'll know how to prime your combos, and get what you need to get up, when it's needed. Reprisal on the other hand is locked behind RNG.

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Originally Posted by Hundred

Drk dance isn't a mere 30% parry. Its 30% Parry, 20% evasion in proper useage, which achieves the same role of Bulwark as mitigation when attacked with high frequency especially in the context of a notably shorter CD.

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I lol'd.

As many times as I've tanked Ravana EX (I do quite a lot actually), I've never once actually dodged anything that really mattered. If anything at all honestly. Hell I hardly feel any difference in my Parry when I have it up even. The Healers don't have to suddenly heal me any less than they already have.

It's a trash mob skill, only efficient when paired with passengers Blind during large pack pulls, outside of Blood Price.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

War's damage buffs are what put them ahead in damage. Well, as well as the fact that they now have a way to restore their TP. Drk's have no damage buffs other than Darkside, which is nice and all, but doesn't quite compete with a skilled Warrior. Drk's can definitely do a lot of damage sure, but I feel the reason most people are pointing the damage difference out is because that is yet another reason someone may choose a War over a Drk.

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We have Dark Arts, which boosts several skill's damage, so that can be considered a Damage buff skill too.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

We have Dark Arts, which boosts several skill's damage, so that can be considered a Damage buff skill too.

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True, completely slipped my mind, but still doesn't quite put us on par with Warriors.

Also, our Dark Arts isn't even close to free, unlike WAR, who's damage increasing abilities not only come with little to no cost (Maim and Storm's Eye are completely free, and Berserk, if utilized correctly, only results in a little more than 2.5 seconds of real downtime) while also providing resources, while DRK's end up draining them further and limiting their options.

Additionally, one more skill comparison worth considering is Sole Survivor to Equilibrium (and kind of sort of to Clemency). Sole survivor featuring a usage requirement that makes it effectively useless for actually pulling out at clutch moments, and twice the cooldown of Equilibrium.

Sole Survivor is more of a mercy stroke for us that is actually designed properly. Save for the long cooldown that is.

However, in fights where things do not spawn mobs or anything that actually dies, it's useless. In fights where things do die, you'd have to be in range to use it.

On demand burst heals with a lower CD are far, far, far more useful than Sole Survivor. Funny thing however is that usually when things die, you'll be taking less damage, and the healers heals will be able to keep your HP afloat easily. I find myself using it more for the MP than the HP.

Lets also not forget that it's restricted to 20%, while Equilibrium for example runs on 1200 Potency, which can be quite a big heal.

Dark Arts - Blood Price - Gain TP when struck. Number can vary.

Dark Arts now allows the player to activate Reprisal without the Parry requirement. For off-tanking mostly.

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Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

Dark Arts - Blood Price - Gain TP when struck. Number can vary.

Dark Arts now allows the player to activate Reprisal without the Parry requirement. For off-tanking mostly.

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First one would be neat, but that would be useless when you're not tanking, which is often the time when TP becomes a problem.

Second one would be nice, but I feel like we shouldn't have to spend that much MP just to get Reprisal up. As OT doing damage should be our priority, and Dark Arts'd Souleaters is where most of our damage comes from. It'll really hurt to have to start spending 1.7k MP on Reprisal.

Having only got DRK to 54, I am a bit limited in experience, but there are a few changes I would propose:

Reprisal - at present, this is a terrible ability to have for one of our key debuffs - the damage is great, but it's redundant unless MT. Rather than increasing the length of the debuff, I think this would be better served by being on the GCD and the parry requirement removed. The skill could be changed so that each parry or evade reduces the CD by 2 seconds. This would mean that you don't hurt yourself in reprisal usage if you use DA Dark Dance and get the evasion buff (although it will reduce your MP regen if you use at the same time as Blood Price) and could keep the debuff up around 66% of the time as off tank and probably around 80% as main tank.

Salted Earth - it is a little annoying that this is a ground target AOE. I sometimes find that as it is oGCD, I'll click the ground target and it won't place properly. I think this is a timing thing, but it's a bit clumsy. A suggestion would be that this is either a targeted AOE with a lingering effect, or a double-click/activate will automatically place it on your current target.

Blood Weapon - I would like to see a use for this in Grit. DRK already has a lot of abilities which need certain stance criteria in order to use, which I don't think is the case for the other tanks (certainly wasn't for PLD pre-expansion, not sure about WAR). I would suggest that the CD be increased by 15s and the ability be changed to be usable in Grit. I'd also change it to give a secondary effect. For Grit this would be a health leech, similar to Bloodbath. For non-Grit I would keep the current buff. Blood Weapon would then form a combined defensive/offensive CD based on stance.

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Originally Posted by Kydi

Salted Earth - it is a little annoying that this is a ground target AOE. I sometimes find that as it is oGCD, I'll click the ground target and it won't place properly. I think this is a timing thing, but it's a bit clumsy. A suggestion would be that this is either a targeted AOE with a lingering effect, or a double-click/activate will automatically place it on your current target.

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I personally love the skill, but I do agree it's very clumsy to place. I can't even tell you how many times I've sat there clicking trying to get it off as I'm doing other things, and wasting time. I don't think they need to change the skill as it is, more of make it easier to actually use when you're trying to place it.


I also hope they change plunge just a little bit. It's range feels very, very short. Maybe I'm just too used to the gap closers in SWTOR, but Plunge feels like I'm only a few steps from the enemy anyways. I really only find it useful in boss fights that use knock backs. Otherwise I use it as an oGCD attack.

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It was an odd choice for Dark Arts to boost Dark Dance's evasion rate because absolutely none of our other abilities work in sync with evasion

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You're wrong here, on add's, it's a great addition with dark art + dark passenger (blind effect), i get ton of "evasion" while under the effect of both.

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

You're wrong here, on add's, it's a great addition with dark art + dark passenger (blind effect), i get ton of "evasion" while under the effect of both.

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It's not in sync with any other of our abilities since they can only go off a parry and not a dodge or miss. Low blows and Reprisal are both from parry.

You're also talking about using dark arts on two different abilities, one with an already high mp cost. Even if you take less damage you will end up hurting your MP. If you end any non-boss fight with low mp you are doing it wrong.
You would be better off just using Shadowskin, Dark Dance, blood price and spam unleash for days.

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

You're wrong here, on add's, it's a great addition with dark art + dark passenger (blind effect), i get ton of "evasion" while under the effect of both.

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Blind should work on everything.
It would still require a huge chunk of MP to make it effective, though.

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

You're wrong here, on add's, it's a great addition with dark art + dark passenger (blind effect), i get ton of "evasion" while under the effect of both.

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Oh good I was afraid I'd have MP left over.

That's silly. What would you even use it for? Other things?

So I theory-crafted a little t13 cooldown rotation just to see if a lvl50, for example, DRK has the cooldowns to make it through a fight with big tank busters. I put it in another thread but it seems relevant here :D

Phase 1:
Flatten #1 - Shadow Wall + Convalescence
Flatten #2 - Shadowskin + Dark Dance - DA Dark Mind after hit for breath

Phase 2: (This assumes only 2 Flattens in Phase 1):
Flatten #3 - Foresight + DA Dark Dance + Convalescence
Flatten #4 - Living Dead
Flatten #5 - Dark Dance + Shadow Wall

Phase 3:
Pain #1 - Foresight + DA Dark Dance
Gusts x3 - Awareness + Foresight
Sin - Convalescence

Storm of Meracydia:
Death Sentence #1 - Shadow Wall
Death Sentence #2 - Shadowskin + Foresight + Awareness

Phase 4: Bloodbath/Foresight/Awareness/Dark Dance kept on CD to help ensure you aren't picked off by autos after Akh Morns

Akh Morn #1 - DA Dark Mind + Convalescence

Akh Morn #2 - Shadow Wall

Akh Morn #3 - DA Dark Mind + Shadowskin

Akh Morn #4 - Living Dead + possibly Bloodbath and a DA Souleater or two to help the healers get the buff off of you

Akh Morn #5 - DA Dark Mind + Shadowskin + Convalescence

The more I think on it, one big issue I have with DRK is just the lack of synergy with skills. DA + Dark Passenger/Dark Dance help you avoid damage, sounds great until remembering that the main CD for DRK to get MP back is ONLY useful if you're hit, and if you're avoiding attacks you're not parrying so you're not getting your parry procs. It just seems backwards to give us abilities that require us to be hit, then add in abilities that help us avoid getting hit.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

Oh good I was afraid I'd have MP left over.

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You have plenty when it come to tank more than 4 adds.

One issue that needs to be adressed is TP. We're getting out of TP really quickly meanwhile Warriors can bring a lot as OT/MT and still have a TP regeneration move. Paladin do not have a TP restoration move but their utility is great as OT just because of divine veil.

We can't even use reprisal as OT, and Delirium is useless if there's a monk in your group... WHAT do we bring to our group?? I'm seriously wondering.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

One issue that needs to be adressed is TP. We're getting out of TP really quickly meanwhile Warriors can bring a lot as OT/MT and still have a TP regeneration move. Paladin do not have a TP restoration move but their utility is great as OT just because of divine veil.

We can't even use reprisal as OT, and Delirium is useless if there's a monk in your group... WHAT do we bring to our group?? I'm seriously wondering.

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Paladins way of restoring TP is to use more Shield Swipe. It's a low cost on global cooldown attack. The gain is very low but if they weave it between attacks they will last for ages.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

One issue that needs to be adressed is TP. We're getting out of TP really quickly meanwhile Warriors can bring a lot as OT/MT and still have a TP regeneration move. Paladin do not have a TP restoration move but their utility is great as OT just because of divine veil.

We can't even use reprisal as OT, and Delirium is useless if there's a monk in your group... WHAT do we bring to our group?? I'm seriously wondering.

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Yes, this is certainly a matter of genuine concern. I find myself almost demanding MT roles in any 8-man content I approach, simply because DRK's off tanking abilities are just so worthless.

Giving Delirium a Dark Arts bonus (it's silly to be the only finisher without one) that provided a -10% Magic resistance debuff (which everyone has been crying for anyway) would definitely help quite a bit.

Additionally, I'd be all for changing Dark Arts so that all of its effects modify skills for offensive purposes, while improving the base defensive abilities of the same cooldowns. For example, instead of Dark Dance giving +20% evasion while in Dark Arts, it could drop the defensive buffs from the skill entirely to give some sort of TP regen. It would set a simpler baseline for lower level play, while still providing a high skill ceiling for optimized efficiency, something I think we all can appreciate.

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Originally Posted by Croisciento

One issue that needs to be adressed is TP. We're getting out of TP really quickly meanwhile Warriors can bring a lot as OT/MT and still have a TP regeneration move. Paladin do not have a TP restoration move but their utility is great as OT just because of divine veil.

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TP yes. Even as MT without using BW I'll still run dry on TP in any extended fight. Which just goes to show how poorly thought out the TP system is, we only get a single move above 60 TP, and we can drain that TP like no other somehow.

You could make dark arts force regen timer and activate Reprisal for use as well, this way we could keep debuff 100% of the time at high cost. And as OT and Solo we have an extra off global cooldown at will when others are cooling.

I think thats REASONABLE hehe

I don't know about having 100% up-time on reprisal. That might be a bit much, and appears to be a role that should be fulfilled by the WARs out there. I agree with everything else, though.

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Originally Posted by Falgern

Paladins way of restoring TP is to use more Shield Swipe. It's a low cost on global cooldown attack. The gain is very low but if they weave it between attacks they will last for ages.

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Just want to note, Shield Swipe isn't available as OT unless you Cover + Bulwark/Sheltron or something.

Reduce Shadow Wall to 120 seconds or keep the same timer but increase the dmg reduction to 40%.

It's no where near as good as Vengeance which is also 30% dmg reduction but also deflects physical damage meaning it can stack with Bloodbath. It's also no where near as powerful as Sentinel which is 40% dmg reduction but shares the same 180 recast timer.

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Originally Posted by Kiteless

Yes, this is certainly a matter of genuine concern. I find myself almost demanding MT roles in any 8-man content I approach, simply because DRK's off tanking abilities are just so worthless.

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I'm all with you with Delirium dark arts bonus. I also think Carve and Spit should give TP back under dark arts instead of increasing potency. I also think Dark Stance isn't reliable enough and just as you see this spell be enhanced in another way when used with Dark Arts.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

Reduce Shadow Wall to 120 seconds or keep the same timer but increase the dmg reduction to 40%.

It's no where near as good as Vengeance which is also 30% dmg reduction but also deflects physical damage meaning it can stack with Bloodbath. It's also no where near as powerful as Sentinel which is 40% dmg reduction but shares the same 180 recast timer.

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Don't forget that Vengeance also gives Wrath/Abandon of the GCD.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Just want to note, Shield Swipe isn't available as OT unless you Cover + Bulwark/Sheltron or something.

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But you can't forget that you do have Clemency/SS which you can toss out occasionally to do essentially the same effect of recovering TP for a GCD.