Defensive ability, WAR VS DRK

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Can you share your cooldown rotation, please ?

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well.. im just using the same rotation when im play PLD... but with extra dark mind and dark dance.. remember.. u can use that skill every 60 sec...
and if u calculation.. with 1 cooldown shadowskin u can use 2 dark dance/mind... (3 if shadow wall)

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I think it's good enough to practice CD rotation and see how many times you'd get caught off guard.
Something like "Without the Echo, this Flatten would have killed me since all my buffs are on cooldown" :p

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But you wouldn't know if it did unless you went back to your logs after the fight and looked at every single time you took damage, how much you took, did all the math of what was mitigated from your stats, the Echo, what your HP was left at after the hit, what level of HP your healers decided to let you get to before spamming their heals on you, etc. etc.

There are just far too many changes in play for someone to gauge that correctly.

And lets not forget, tank busters can be paced apart different depending on the encounter. I mean sure it'd be good for practicing what buttons to hit after another, or while another one is down, but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Lazka

well.. im just using the same rotation when im play PLD... but with extra dark mind and dark dance.. remember.. u can use that skill every 60 sec...

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True...so much topic about PLD and WAR shine with Sheltron and Raw Intuition that I start to forget you wouldn't have them for lvl50 content. :p

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Originally Posted by Ditto

FCoB has 20% Echo, and I'm fairly sure the stat scaling puts you at the absolute highest possible stats for the instance, same as it does in other instances when it level syncs you.

It isn't really a good place to determine a classes worth when you're 20%+ overtuned for the encounter.

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You can click off echo, and if so inclined, can click minimum iLVL.

It might not be a great comparison to do old content, true, but currently there's nothing in 3.0 that requires a strong tank including Bismark/Ravana EX. I feel like Phoenix bopping you for 1/3 your HP on a crit auto, and having to actually plan a timeline (without echo) is the closest thing we've got!

I have done this VERY quickly just before going to work so I almost certainly missed something. EDIT: I forgot Vengeance... so changing these calculations again as below.

Talking of tank busters, I decided to try and compare some hypothetical numbers. It doesn't matter if they are accurate in this case, as it's pure theory, as long as they start from the same premise.

If a DRK has 1000 health than the WAR would have 1250 with Defiance on. In here I presume that WAR has Defiance and the DRK has Grit.

WAR : 1250 health (Defiance up) - 800 hit = 450 (36% remaining life)
DRK : 1000 health - 640 hit (Grit up) = 360 (36% remaining life)
(Thanks Reynhart)

WAR Health 1250 +20% Thrill of Battle = 1500 - 800 hit (-80% Raw Intuition, Storm's Eye and IB, Vengeance) = 1340 + cure 300 (+25% Defiance) = 1715 (114% of health before Thrill of Battle wears off)
Total effective health output: 250 from Thrill of battle + 640 from mitigation + 375 from Cure with Defiance buff = 1265

PLD Health 1000 - 800 hit (- 70% Grit, Shadow Skin, Shadow Wall) = 760 + cure 300 = 1060 (106% of health - 60 overhealing)
Total effective health output: 560 from mitigation + 300 from Cure - 60 overhealing = 800 (860 if you count overhealing as health pools are larger than 1000)


(This was before EDIT: Therefore I do not think that WAR are WAY ahead of DRKs from a defensive point of view.) AFTER EDIT: WAR has about 32% more effective health when the conditions above are met.

Magic VS Physical Damage
Let's presume that there is a new tank buster in Heavensward, which is magical. Let's repeat the calculations above.

WAR Health 1250 +20% Thrill of Battle = 1500 - 800 hit (-60% Vengeance, Storm's Eye and IB) = 1020 + cure 300 (+25% Defiance) = 1395 (93% of health before Thrill of Battle wears off, some of which effectively becomes overhealing)
Total effective health output: 250 from Thrill of battle + 480 from mitigation + 375 from Cure with Defiance buff = 1105

PLD Health 1000 - 800 hit (- 85% Grit, Shadow Skin, Shadow Wall, Dark Mind) = 880 + cure 300 = 1180 (118% of health - 180 overhealing)
Total effective health output (including overhealing): 680 from mitigation + 300 from Cure = 800 (980 if you count overhealing)

But DRK has Delirium (-10% INT) and I don't know how much mitigation that is.

WAR is ahead of DRK even in tanking magical damage without counting Delirium, but Delirium will not make up for the gap, although it will bring them closer.

Extra Considerations

After the hit WAR could use Equilibrium (1200 potency) to heal (if the tankbuster happens less often than every 60 secs) VS DRK's use of several Souleaters (260 potency without DA, and 400 potency with DA) to heal.

IB is up way more often than Shadowskin or Shadow Wall, but DRK has 20% from Grit. So compare IB to Grit, DRK has the advantage.

Raw Intuition has a CD of 90 seconds SAME as Shadowskin and they both offer 20% damage reduction, but Shadowskin has no need for Awareness (I know RI is bugged, but I am not going to factor that in, I also know that with good position you can use it without Awareness, but it will prove clunky with a lot of mobs).

DRK has a 30% damage reduction every 180 secs (Shadow Wall), WAR has Vengeance on 150 secs CD.

DRKs -10% damage from Reprisal might be up sometimes, but as it's RNG, I didn't factor it in.

DRK's Dark Mind is a trap, since it's "extra magic damage" but actually, it isn't extra when you add it all up.

Dark Dance gives you an extra 30% parry chance, add it to the 20% parry chance, it means you have 50% parry chance. That is a 50% chance that the buster will be mitigated by 20% IF it's physical. Dark Dance is more effective against groups. You can give it extra evasion if you use Dark Arts. You can dodge spells (I dodged an this morning Ice Sprite), Dark Dance with DA makes sense only if you use it against magical damage.

Damage Considerations

These are not proper calculations just a "off the top of my head" thoughts.

Damage wise, WAR gets a DPS stance that gives them 5% extra damage and crit depending on stacks, they also get Maim (20% damage), Berserk and Inner Release. But they have attacks with considerably lower potency. They also get Fel Cleave and Decimate with 5 stacks of Abandon.

DRK keeps 15% from Dark Side, plus Blood Weapon (attack speed) attacks with considerably higher potency and enhanced Souleaters with DA, which with Blood Weapon can be executed quite often.

The WAR might pull slightly ahead here but I don't think it's trashing the DRK.

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Originally Posted by Xariann

IB is up way more often than Shadowskin or Shadow Wall, but DRK has 20% from Grit. So compare IB to Grit, DRK has the advantage.

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You can't compare "Grit to Inner Beast". The WAR equivalent of Grit is Defiance.
In your example, withtout any active mitigation :
WAR : 1250 health (Defiance up) - 800 hit = 450 (36% remaining life)
DRK : 1000 health - 640 hit (Grit up) = 360 (36% remaining life)

Raw Intuition is the same as Shadow Skin regarding mitigation and cooldown, and against a boss, you shouldn't be hit from anywhere but the front.
Vengeance is the same as Shadow Wall for damage mitigation, but as a shorter cooldown.

That leaves Inner Beast for WAR and Dark Dance, Dark Mind for DRK.
Dark Mind is magic only, and most of tankbusters are physical (for now), so it's situational at best.
And for Dark Dance, it has more than twice the "cooldown" of Inner Beast (The time to build wrath, Infuriate apart), and is far less reliable.

Damage wise...It needs far more calculations, and since I don't play WAR post 50, I won't talk about it.

Why can't you compare Grit to Inner Beast? The point is that one has 20% mitigation all the time, the other one doesn't. The 25% healing increase relies on the healer actually healing the tank, and in the calculations that is taken into account, the higher health pool is also taken into account. I get it about Raw Intuition, and it IS counted in the calculation.

But I did forget Thrill of Battle and I should probably add Storm's path in the calculation, so I am going to edit that now - once I add those things up, my thoughts might change.

Damage wise it does need more calculations, I am just making some general considerations.

Look at my example, I did not take any healing into account.
"Reducing damage by 20%" is the same as "having 25% more HP AND receiving 25% more heal". So, in fact Defiance is slighty behind Grit or Shield Oath, because it only provides 20%, but in the heat of the battle, it's not a really big difference.

If you don't want to take healing into account, just count how many hits it'd take to kill a WAR, a DRK or a PLD. You'll always end with the exact same number of hits between the three tanks.

Besides, in your example, what happens if another exact hit happens 30 seconds later ? The DRK will only have Grit, while the WAR will have Defiance still up AND can pop another Inner Beast.

I find all these posts of drys trying to convince themselves of their 'equal' mitigating pretty amusing. You guys do the most damage while tanking, and there is a cost for that and its called mitigation. Certainly they can buff you but I doubt you will ever touch war mitigation (let alone paladin). If you did you would need a damage nerf.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And you try to convince me that you can heal more than a 1200 potency spell that can be boosted by 30% with, at best, a 300 potency skill, even with 80% more damage...
And forgetting that all your healing skills need at least 3 GCD to pop...time during the PLD can cast Clemency several times.

It's becoming really funny for all WAR lovers to claim they can deal faaar more damage than others tanks, and heal faaaar more and take hits faaaar easily.
Live in your dream, buddy, and cringe while everyone will still prefer PLD as a main tank.

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What is funny is how you have no clue about what you are talking about.

WAR can self heal for 7k+ in 2 seconds
Thrill of Battle for max HP increase + heal of that amount (3k+ at 60), new skill which is INSTANT CAST and also has 1200 cure potency (Equilibrium) for another 3k+, Second Wind as cross class for 1k+

I'm not even taking into acount double inner beasts, which heal for 1k+ each... over 3k total heal with berserk+bloodbath...

So a WAR can self-heal themselves for 10k in 3-4 seconds if you use the instant skills during/between inner beasts...

How many Clemency can you cast in 3-4 seconds, again??

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Originally Posted by Faytte

You guys do the most damage while tanking, and there is a cost for that and its called mitigation. Certainly they can buff you but I doubt you will ever touch war mitigation (let alone paladin). If you did you would need a damage nerf.

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Problem is, we haven't seen any solid numbers proving this. In fact, in these threads, it's still the "WAR is the most brutal" everywhere :p

@Reynhart - Just follow my entire line of thought in the post (now edited with the skills I forgot to account for). I guess I am bias because I have written it, but if you look at it the way I have done it makes sense. When you look at the calculations, DRK falls behind in tanking physical damage and it is about on par with WAR in tanking magic damage.

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Originally Posted by aerolol

WAR can self heal for 7k+ in 2 seconds

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Every 60 seconds

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Originally Posted by aerolol

Thrill of Battle for max HP increase + heal of that amount (3k+ at 60)

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Every 120 seconds, again

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Originally Posted by aerolol

Second Wind as cross class for 1k+

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Every 120 seconds, once more

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Originally Posted by aerolol

I'm not even taking into acount double inner beasts, which heal for 1k+ each... over 3k total heal with berserk+bloodbath...

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Berserk, every 90 seconds, bloobath every 90 seconds. Do you see a pattern here ?
And Infuriate, every 60 seconds, which will also make you overlap the damage mitigation of Inner Beast, proving that, in your quest to get big numbers, you throw away how to properly manage your skills.

EDIT : Ok, I'm foolish. Now, I'm starting to see the BIG picture.

You're in the last turn of savage Alexander
Both healers are dead and your party is exhausted from the struggle
The beast has only few HP left...survive the next 15 seconds and the victory is yours
Beware, the big tankbuster is coming, the one that makes every tank shudder in fear
But not you ! You're ready to take it !
Just before the hit, you activate Holmgang and survive with one HP
Your remembered to save your wrath for this moment, so, after unleashing Berserk and Bloodbath, you strike your first Inner Beast
Right after that, you gather all your fury, and strike a second time ! You could almost hear your Inner Beast howling
Now that your rage is almost quenched, you let yourself in the Thrill Of Battle, but not without catching your breath with a Second Wind, while still keeping your Equilibrium
You did it ! The beast is dead ! Your fast and cunning reflexes gave time for your last DPS to unleash its devastating Limit Break !
You saved the day, you're a hero worthy of praises, and people will make songs about you
Congratulations

Nooow, from a PLD
Big hit is coming, pop Hallowed Ground, Limit Break, boss dead

I'll admit any day that this is far less epic, but we're talking about mitigation here, not epicness :p

burst healing of a significant value is more valuable (by leagues) in raiding over small values that come up more often. I will tell you right now---the 400 potency heal of soul eater will mean nothing in raiding--when a buster hits you for nearly all of your health, and the next auto attack may kill you the 400 potency heal (which you need to be ready to land right in that window) isnt going to save you.

Smaller heals (blood bath, IB, soul eater) mostly get over written by healers--healers are not going to take into account your paltry self heal when they line up what to land on you.

Inner Beast is shadow skin whenever you want---thats why its great.
Thrill of Battle/equilibrium can make up for bad luck in a fight, either by pushing your health instantly over what might kill you (or recovering before the next mechanic/attack will kill you).
Periodic healing (which is what soul eater, blood bath are) are largely irrelevant outside of dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You're in the last turn of savage Alexander
...
...
You saved the day, you're a hero worthy of praises, and people will make songs about you
Congratulations

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Basically. Thrill and Equilibrium are 'BURST SURVIVABILITY' which counter 'BURST DAMAGE'. Things like soul eater are sustained survivability which counter sustained damage (generally, dungeons).

Hopefully that helps :P

Drks value is Dark Mind and Deliriums -Int when you don't have a monk. That and Dark Dance's shorter cooldown to something like Bulwark.
Not that it really matters for heavensward current dungeons, all ezpz lemon squeeze and you'll clear regardless, but basically unless Alexander is something with a fair amount of Magical dmg output to put Dark Mind to use, you'd just take a PLD.

Dark Dance compared to Bulwark is ...painful to hear.

It being up more often almost never matters. Its 30% for 20% reduction. The bulwarks 60% ontop of base block rates is damn near 100% and shields can get over 30% block reduction even with the starting shields at level 60. Thats why bulwark has a much larger cd---cause its ...good.

Dark Dance is a 'maybe' shadow skin, if its parriable, if parry happens.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Things like soul eater are sustained survivability which counter sustained damage (generally, dungeons).

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We're not talking about healing from Soul Eater, but healing from Clemency.

As seen in this video a high level PLD can heal more than 5k on a WAR without convalescence.
So, with traited Convalescence, it can heal itself even more. Basically getting back to full life in 6 seconds.

Dark Dance is NOTHING like Bulwark. Hell it doesn't even compare to Rampart really, because Dark Dance is RNG, Rampart is constant reduction throughout it's duration. (We all know you're not going to dodge a tank buster so c'mon now)

And as far as Drk vs. War DPS, War pulls ahead as Main Tank still.

Not entirely sure in an OT situation, I myself have reached 600 DPS without Grit while MT even, but that only lasts until I run out of TP, which is incredibly quickly when you're using Blood Weapon. With War offensive buffs (Their better OT utility aside), and their new way to restore their TP (Which a Drk has absolutely no way to), I'm fairly sure Warrior will pull much further ahead in the long run.

As is, Drk offense is 1 big burst until you run out of TP. A burst that a Warrior can likely do better simple due to their own damage buffs, while still maintaining DPS outside of the burst without having to sit on their butt waiting for their TP to regen for as long as a Drk does.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

We're not talking about healing from Soul Eater, but healing from Clemency.

As seen in this video a high level PLD can heal more than 5k on a WAR without convalescence.
So, with traited Convalescence, it can heal itself even more. Basically getting back to full life in 6 seconds.

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Yeah Clemency is fantastic. It really expands the role of a Paladin as both MT and OT. Save a healer, save a dps, save the tank or save yourself.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Save a healer, save a dps, save the tank or save yourself.

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Save the cheerleader, save the world.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Snip

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Why does a dark run out of tp when a war doesnt? Equilibrium only restores tp in deliverance which you wont be in while MTing in raids.
Maim places a war in defiance at the same effective damage as a Dark (WAr is (1*.75)*1.25=90% of normal. Dark is (1*.80)*1.15=92% of normal.
So whats the argument then, cause berserk is pairing off against the massive (over 2000 or so) free potency of off GCD attacks a Dark has per minute.

None of the Darks Burst costs them TP--so im curious why you think this?

The actual reason war runs out of tp less is because Inner beast costs no TP, so you spend a GCD gaining TP when you use it.
Granted other things in the war kit are tp expensive if used (fracture/Overpower).

Erm so....that logic...

Darks aoe uses mana, and IB is nice (doesnt cost tp) but I doubt a Dark is running out of TP while tanking because it lacks IB. As you mentioned, things like warriors overpower counter the tp gains of IB.

That is correct that Drk Aoe uses mana. I deliberately pointed out that a War will run out of mana if they're pushing for their tp inefficient skills.
In the case of simplying using your Sword combos, Drk would have to use a mana GcD skill to replicate what is a natural effect for warrior, using a tp less gcd spell.

Another way to look at it would be that Drk has less initial tp cost due to building aggro via mana, but more sustained tp useage otherwise.

Could be a wash either way, but War regardless regain TP on every IB.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Erm so....that logic...

Darks aoe uses mana, and IB is nice (doesnt cost tp) but I doubt a Dark is running out of TP while tanking because it lacks IB. As you mentioned, things like warriors overpower counter the tp gains of IB.

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IB is like getting back ~63ish TP every 9-10 GCD as part of your normal rotation. You can also choose to drop fracture from your rotation if you want to conserve TP for long fights. DRK's only option is to mix in unmend & unleash, which eats at their also precious mana. It gets a little worse when you're out of Grit because blood weapon's haste means faster TP drain with nothing to make up for it.

I've noticed DRKs have TP issues on any fight of moderate length with constant up time. Although, maybe it's not a problem because they *do* have options for skills that don't cost TP.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

Why does a dark run out of tp when a war doesnt? Equilibrium only restores tp in deliverance which you wont be in while MTing in raids.
Maim places a war in defiance at the same effective damage as a Dark (WAr is (1*.75)*1.25=90% of normal. Dark is (1*.80)*1.15=92% of normal.
So whats the argument then, cause berserk is pairing off against the massive (over 2000 or so) free potency of off GCD attacks a Dark has per minute.

None of the Darks Burst costs them TP--so im curious why you think this?

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I said in an OT situation, or basically with Grit down, not with it up. With Grit down, you have access to Blood Weapon, which gives you crazy attack speed. You blow your TP through very, very easily. I've only ever ran out of TP a couple of times while tanking with Grit up. It doesn't happen often, but it can definitely still happen. Also, yes, all of our burst comes from TP excluding C&S, which you can only use once every 60 seconds anyway. Within that 60 seconds, you'll be spamming either Delirium, or Souleater if you have the mana for Dark Arts. Power Slash only if you need enmity.

Outside of Grit, with Blood Weapon, it's Dark Arts Souleater over and over and over. Your TP goes very fast.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I've noticed DRKs have TP issues on any fight of moderate length with constant up time. Although, maybe it's not an option because they *do* have options for skills that don't cost TP.

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Running out of TP is not an option for us outside of Grit (Assuming I'm understanding what you wrote right), or in a fight with Grit on and 0 downtime between skills. It will happen at some point in prolonged fights, but usually most fights have enough transitions or tiny breaks where you can recover your TP. We have *no* skills that cost mana, and are on our GCD chain that we could use in a similar fashion to the way IB uses a gcd, unless we use Unmend, Unleash, or AByssal Drain, all of which are not worth spending the MP on for a single target. In Unmends case, not worth using once you initialize threat.

In Deliverence, a War should almost never run out of TP anymore.

Also, single target enmity is built using TP, and MP through Dark Arts only if it's needed. MP Enmity is only for AOE.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Running out of TP is not an option...

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Sorry, derped, i meant to type "problem". No idea why I wrote that.

Maybe it's not a problem because there are alternatives. They're obviously not as good as TP moves, but we are still doing something. As opposed to a WAR who can't do anything but flash a couple times if he's out of TP.

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Originally Posted by Faytte

(WAr is (1*.75)*1.25=90% of normal. Dark is (1*.80)*1.15=92% of normal.

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Not disagreeing with your overall point,

but more accurately WAR is (<Potency>*0.75)*1.20. Yes? Maim is 20%, not 25%. WAR is below DRK on true value per point of potency.

Butcher's Block VS Delirium true potency while in stance (both are 280 potency): BB = 252 VS Del = 257

However, Berserk increases Attack Power, and Unchained removes the -25%. Significant.

And Inner Beast & Steel Cyclone always ignore the 25% reduction.

It's close, which comes out on top depends on player, specifically the DRK, who is dropping DPS if they fail to utilize CDs and Dark Arts optimally

edit: regarding TP, DRK will run out before PLD or WAR. Unmend into Proc'd Unleash a couple/few GCDs to replenish (conserving MP). It's meh. Shield Swipe is 210 potency, WAR can stance dance.

<Goad> plz.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Sorry, derped, i meant to type "problem". No idea why I wrote that.

Maybe it's not a problem because there are alternatives. They're obviously not as good as TP moves, but we are still doing something. As opposed to a WAR who can't do anything but flash a couple times if he's out of TP.

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Well, if we're out of TP, we're not regenerating any MP either outside of Blood Price, which is only good on MP regen when you're being attacked by multiple targets. The best thing to do is lay off and only use costless skills for a little. Refresh scourge, then just sit back until some TP comes back. There is too much a need for your MP to blow it all on low damage, crappy single target skills, which you will. Better to sit on your MP and save it for if something goes wrong while waiting for the other one to replenish itself.

And a War could just stance into Deliverance, pop Equilibrium, then go back into Defiance I'm pretty sure. Thats 200 TP every 60 seconds if they don't need the cure.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Well, if we're out of TP, we're not regenerating any MP either outside of Blood Price, which is only good on MP regen when you're being attacked by multiple targets. The best thing to do is lay off and only use costless skills for a little. Refresh scourge, then just sit back until some TP comes back. There is too much a need for your MP to blow it all on low damage, crappy single target skills, which you will. Better to sit on your MP and save it for if something goes wrong while waiting for the other one to replenish itself.

And a War could just stance into Deliverance, pop Equilibrium, then go back into Defiance I'm pretty sure. Thats 200 TP every 60 seconds if they don't need the cure.

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Pretty sure unmend & free unleash are the best mana > damage abilities we have. So if you're to the point where it's do nothing or use those, those 2 win.

But those 2 don't generate MP during blood weapon. I will use my mana abilities to "regenerate" TP outside of blood weapon and make sure I have enough TP to finish blood weapon to get the most out of it.