Holy and Flare diminishing returns nerf

Ouch. No longer worth the mana now. :S

So basically it took us 8 pages to go from "OMG this is the worst thing EVAH!" to "Oh, nothing's really changing at all, we just preemptively reacted."

It's a new record XD

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Originally Posted by Kerwin

Ouch. No longer worth the mana now. :S

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still is. still the most powerful spell besides assize. the buff only makes mass pulls >6 mobs a little more tedious.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

still is. still the most powerful spell besides assize. the buff only makes mass pulls >6 mobs a little more tedious.

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Still more powerful than Assize unless you're pulling 11 mobs, which would be 4 packs.

Still is worth it imo.

50% of 260 potency is still good when you put in perspective where you hit ALL the mobs around the target. Not to mention the ley lines thingy. You have to cast FLare inside so it'll be augmented or whatever it does. So the nerf was reasonable.

Holy nerf was needed as it provides an AOE 6 seconds stun lock with it too.

Not worth it. Very stupid changes. I will just take a Dragoon instead. <3

At least I can say: "I told you so."

These changes, plus the experience changes are horrible, horrible game design choices. They are taking away what made the game.. "Fun" why have 2.5 GCDs when the spells are not even powerful?

Flare, should be taken off your hot-bar.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

Still is worth it imo.

50% of 260 potency is still good when you put in perspective where you hit ALL the mobs around the target. Not to mention the ley lines thingy. You have to cast FLare inside so it'll be augmented or whatever it does. So the nerf was reasonable.

Holy nerf was needed as it provides an AOE 6 seconds stun lock with it too.

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Ley lines is just cast speed, has no effect on flares damage.

And 130 potency for all of my mana is little for a lot.

They could extend the stun to 10s for all anyone cares, if you spam it you quickly burn out it's effectiveness as the mobs build resistance. Holy was never meant to be spammed, it was intended as 'one and run', like Fluid Aura.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Still more powerful than Assize unless you're pulling 11 mobs, which would be 4 packs.

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How? Assize is 300 potency without diminishing returns. Holy is 200 for just the first enemy and goes down from there.

Assize is definitely more powerful, but it has a 90s recast timer so it's not a replacement.

If you take into consideration Aero 3 and Assize, then on moderate pulls (5-6 targets) the WHM total AoE potency hasn't changed much. I suspect it's the same with the BLM.

Wait...does Aero 3 put the DoT up on all the targets it hit, or only on the current target?

(A) Cast Aero 3 on T1, hits T1+T2+T3+T4, and all T1~T4 gets DoT; or
(B) Cast Aero 3 on T1, hits T1+T2+T3+T4, but only T1 gets the DoT.

I wonder which one it is.

EDIT: on second thought, it looks like it may even be a net buff with Assize...

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

How? Assize is 300 potency without diminishing returns. Holy is 200 for just the first enemy and goes down from there.

Assize is definitely more powerful, but it has a 90s recast timer so it's not a replacement.

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I was talking about Flare.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

Ley lines is just cast speed, has no effect on flares damage.

And 130 potency for all of my mana is little for a lot.

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Ah, I see. Still, casting Flare inside ley lines would be a good idea.

Yeah but what I said was it's 130 potency to all the enemies around the target. So, I think it's a reasonable amount considering you still hit the first target for full potency.

I rarely play as BLM but when I do, I flare a lot. I flare when the mana has only like close to 20%. Not enough to cast Fire 2 but enough to cast Fire 1. So, exchanging that Fire 1 with a big AOE is a very fair trade, given the Flare will deplete my mana.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

They could extend the stun to 10s for all anyone cares, if you spam it you quickly burn out it's effectiveness as the mobs build resistance. Holy was never meant to be spammed, it was intended as 'one and run', like Fluid Aura.

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The stun part is, but all CC isn't meant to be re-applied multiple times. The damage part is very clearly meant to be recast, because otherwise they just would've put it on a cooldown.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

Ah, I see. Still, casting Flare inside ley lines would be a good idea.

Yeah but what I said was it's 130 potency to all the enemies around the target. So, I think it's a reasonable amount considering you still hit the first target for full potency.

I rarely play as BLM but when I do, I flare a lot. I flare when the mana has only like close to 20%. Not enough to cast Fire 2 but enough to cast Fire 1. So, exchanging that Fire 1 with a big AOE is a very fair trade, given the Flare will deplete my mana.

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Be more efficient now to blizzard 3 to refill mana for more fire 2 spam quicker.

Flare will now just be something you cast when convert is up.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I was talking about Flare.

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Oh I got the impression the person you quoted was talking about for WHM.
Because the person they quoted were talking about what I assume was Holy, since they were talking about it being worth the mana.

But I do see the argument about Flare vs Assize the page before.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

...130 potency for all of my mana is little for a lot.

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I don't think you really know when to use flare...

I can understand doing this for Holy but why Flare? Flare uses 100% of remaining MP to cast but holy doesn't. Seems like Flare won't be used much anymore.

This is just a way to scale back the power of current AoEs to make room for the new ones. This really isn't something worth complaining about.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

Be more efficient now to blizzard 3 to refill mana for more fire 2 spam quicker.

Flare will now just be something you cast when convert is up.

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Yeah but I like Flare not just because of it's damage but because it's a big explosion.

Besides, I'm not trying to hit min/max here. And people wouldn't say no to a flare spam anyways.

Convert will always be up after I cast Flare, so no problem there. Only places where I don't actually end my spells with Flare is when I know I have to move during the next cast.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

Yeah but I like Flare not just because of it's damage but because it's a big explosion.

Besides, I'm not trying to hit min/max here. And people wouldn't say no to a flare spam anyways.

Convert will always be up after I cast Flare, so no problem there. Only places where I don't actually end my spells with Flare is when I know I have to move during the next cast.

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Gameplay wise, RIP big shiny numbers on multiple enemies making you feel like a god. Now it'll be one big number, then a bunch of wannabe numbers looking for table scraps from the bigger better number.

Think of the numbers, SE. They need homes, too.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

It's true, though, Flare can be your whole pool. It can also be less than 300 mp.

Also, Flare has a potency of 468 with AF3. And it only goes down to 234 potency after the sixth target.

Pretty bad to use the lowest number, which requires the higher potencies to hit for that to even happen.
Then to say you use all your mp which could be as low as 270.

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Thanks, Prima Strategy Guide, for telling me hitting start begins the game.

Well honestly I don't care much about holy even though I'm WHM main. I could heal and spam holy but at times just wanted to straight heal. With the cost of it now I surely will not be spamming it.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

Thanks, Prima Strategy Guide, for telling me hitting start begins the game.

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Now YOU'RE being an ass.

We get it, you don't like the nerf because you want to see big numbers on the screen and that's FINE. But the rest of us still see Flare as a very useful spell. Or at least I do.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

Thanks, Prima Strategy Guide, for telling me hitting start begins the game.

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No problem. Hopefully, you figure out how to play the game now.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

Now YOU'RE being an ass.

We get it, you don't like the nerf because you want to see big numbers on the screen and that's FINE. But the rest of us still see Flare as a very useful spell. Or at least I do.

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I'm holding off making any actual statements of the nerf myself.
His comparison is just completely disingenuous. It's beyond hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

Now YOU'RE being an ass.

We get it, you don't like the nerf because you want to see big numbers on the screen and that's FINE. But the rest of us still see Flare as a very useful spell. Or at least I do.

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Fight fire with fire. Be a dick, and get it in return.

Also, I was agreeing with you on liking the spell. So not sure where your animosity is coming from.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

Fight fire with fire. Be a dick, and get it in return.

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Oh I'm being a dick by saying what makes me casting Flare a reasonable action.

If you look back at my posts, none of my words weren't meant to mock or insult you in anyway. I simply present my opinion of what I think makes Flare a still valid spell.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Holy was never meant to be spammed, it was intended as 'one and run', like Fluid Aura.

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If Holy was never meant to be spammed it could have been given a recast time and/or a much lower overall potency. It wasn't, even after the initial nerf. Flare actually had a limitation and still ate the same DR nerf, which is why I feel a lot worse for black mages.

The spells were only used for repetitive grindy content rather than serious raiding or anything actually demanding. People who played the classes used them to make content move a little faster for everyone. Mages alone do not lose here, everyone loses here. Two iconic FF spells will be thrown aside and really never looked at again.

I don't really mind standing there while regen ticks pressing 1 button to heal every few moments, doing something else in the background. Would rather save everyone else time though.

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Originally Posted by elemental10

Oh I'm being a dick by saying what makes me casting Flare a reasonable action.

If you look back at my posts, none of my words weren't meant to mock or insult you in anyway. I simply present my opinion of what I think makes Flare a still valid spell.

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In case you missed my edit.

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Also, I was agreeing with you on liking the spell. So not sure where your animosity is coming from.

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maybe will see a cut down on black mage bots

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Originally Posted by XgungraveX

maybe will see a cut down on black mage bots

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Doubt it. I never see them spam anything other than blizzard 2.

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Originally Posted by Miakisaki

Two iconic FF spells will be thrown aside and really never looked at again.

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You're overreacting. It's just an adjustment and I bet it won't matter that much at the end of the day.

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Originally Posted by bettomendes

You're overreacting. It's just an adjustment and I bet it won't matter that much at the end of the day.

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I don't think you understand any concept. If you take away something - it does matter. <3

Is this due to bad tanks complaining about aggro?, i imagine it would be...

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Originally Posted by Onikimaru

Is this due to bad tanks complaining about aggro?, i imagine it would be...

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Has to do with Yoshi P not keen on the speed runs and also why XP on trash mobs has been nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I don't think you understand any concept. If you take away something - it does matter. <3

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Originally Posted by bettomendes

it won't matter that much

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And well, if you agree that no one will ever use Holy and Flare again you are delusional, sorry.
No one is taking away anything besides maybe 30 seconds of your time on trash pulls in dungeons.

I knew the official forums would errupt in rage and tears lol, but you all know your asses will be sitting in that chair come Friday to play Heavensward. Flare and Holy will still be good, this just makes other jobs viable at AOE.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

If you don't think we'll simply switch to the next best class for AoE, you're delusional. You'd have to nerf EVERY AoE to ever stop speedruns.

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Or just put up more doors with keys that drop off the mobs before them.

Edit: One of the problems with speed runs is that everyone starts to expect them, even when the group members are not good at it, geared for, and/or designed for it. And then what ends up happening is the tank gets stuck tanking a pack of 10+ MOBs for over ten minutes while the DPS pretend they're working through the encounters faster. But I guess that's ok when they're not the ones paying the tank's repair bill.

I disagree with making special exceptions for aoe, like bane and now flare/holy.

Flare and holy too strong? Lower the potency.

Worried about mass pull speedruns? Then put diminishing returns on all aoes. If you don't someone's just going to step up and take blms place as the new goto aoe speedrun dps.

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Originally Posted by RazeLandale

I disagree with making special exceptions for aoe, like bane and now flare/holy.

Flare and holy too strong? Lower the potency.

Worried about mass pull speedruns? Then put diminishing returns on all aoes. If you don't someone's just going to step up and take blms place as the new goto aoe speedrun dps.

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Eh. Name one. There's definitely not a good one in DoWs that wouldn't better off picking mobs off one by one lol.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

Or just put up more doors with keys that drop off the mobs before them.

Edit: One of the problems with speed runs is that everyone starts to expect them, even when the group members are not good at it, geared for, and/or designed for it. And then what ends up happening is the tank gets stuck tanking a pack of 10+ MOBs for over ten minutes while the DPS pretend they're working through the encounters faster. But I guess that's ok when they're not the ones paying the tank's repair bill.

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Don't forget the poor healers having a coronary keeping the tank alive. ;)