So what is PLD good at?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

According to calculation, if the WAR put the slashing debuff, an equally gear PLD in SwOath will always do more damage than a WAR without Defiance. Not a "lot" more, but more nonetheless

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Gonna need math for this one, cause I don't buy it. Pld has exactly one ability that boosts his damage output, by 30% for 30 seconds every 90 seconds. Completely ignoring Storm's eye, war has a 20% boost to damage that should be up 100% of the time, as well as a 50% damage boost for 20 seconds, every 90 seconds. In defiance, you can throw Unchained on top of this to remove the 25% damage penalty for 20 seconds. They also have Internal Release at their disposal, and we'll just ignore the crit rate from defiance.

So please. Math at me.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Gonna need math for this one, cause I don't buy it. Pld has exactly one ability that boosts his damage output, by 30% for 30 seconds every 90 seconds. Completely ignoring Storm's eye, war has a 20% boost to damage that should be up 100% of the time, as well as a 50% damage boost for 20 seconds, every 90 seconds. In defiance, you can throw Unchained on top of this to remove the 25% damage penalty for 20 seconds. They also have Internal Release at their disposal, and we'll just ignore the crit rate from defiance.

So please. Math at me.

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You completely left out Sword oaths bonus. PLD has two of the best offensive skills in the game.

Here is PLD T10 parse from a PUG group I joined last month. I out DPSed the DRG and BLM, PLD is nothing scoff at in the right hands.

http://beast40.com/FFXIV/Parses/pldparse.png

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Originally Posted by Dynalon

I did not have coils in mind, WARs might struggle more than PLDs in new dungeons. But if you want an example where the block or so called "weak awareness" shine then for instance T5, those little snakes crit a lot and can be blocked, back in the days of progression awareness + block was definitely better than anything what WAR could bring.
PLD can't afford to use Rampart and Sentinel at the same time why exactly? PLD can do it and will do it if situation requires it. No idea why Convalescence is weak, if I use your logic against you then Defiance is weak as well, because it provides "only" healing bonus. Healing bonus and damage reduction are just different sides of the same coin ...

Anyway you will understand when you melt to some trash pack in the new dungeon.

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Using rampart and sent as a paladin is so bad.....I can't even begin to go into why but I'll just leave it at ROTATION MANAGEMENT

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

You completely left out Sword oaths bonus. PLD has two of the best offensive skills in the game.

Here is PLD T10 parse from a PUG group I joined last month. I out DPSed the DRG and BLM, PLD is nothing scoff at in the right hands.

http://beast40.com/FFXIV/Parses/pldparse.png

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Fair enough. I did leave out Sword oath. However, you'll have to forgive me if a parse based off a pug party isn't overly convincing to me. If you outdps'd a drg and a blm, that is way more a commentary on them than on you.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Fair enough. I did leave out Sword oath. However, you'll have to forgive me if a parse based off a pug party isn't overly convincing to me. If you outdps'd a drg and a blm, that is way more a commentary on them than on you.

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Anyone with both geared can just test it. I get 425-435 on WAR, 440-450 on PLD. DW axe vs DW sword and IW shield. http://i.imgur.com/i72jSZ0.png

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Fair enough. I did leave out Sword oath. However, you'll have to forgive me if a parse based off a pug party isn't overly convincing to me. If you outdps'd a drg and a blm, that is way more a commentary on them than on you.

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Its 445 MTing over 8 minutes. Khuja is also a highly regarded WAR. The reason why most WARs seem to do more DPS is because they build their sets and mindsets around the idea that they can DPS. While most PLDs just turtle up and 123.

This is a solid read and will get more interesting once HW drops.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/120...e-Off-Tank-DPS

I'm still not completely convinced, but I'll concede to the possibility, based merely on the fact that I haven't done any in depth testing on the matter, and am building my case exclusively off of paper math, and my personal experience playing alongside plds. Both of which give me the result of war winning.

Well... for once I started a thread asking if a PLD is in need of damage buffing and from the responses I have received and through some personal experience, I stand corrected. PLD do fine in terms of damage-dealing. It's just that their skill set is focused on turtling that I didn't see through. I don't have the right gear to do those dps ranges as PLD so that's another thing. Also FoF is equivalent to WAR's Unchained since the buff normalizes the damage penalty you receive from ShO.

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Originally Posted by Zophar

Gonna need math for this one, cause I don't buy it. Pld has exactly one ability that boosts his damage output, by 30% for 30 seconds every 90 seconds. Completely ignoring Storm's eye, war has a 20% boost to damage that should be up 100% of the time, as well as a 50% damage boost for 20 seconds, every 90 seconds. In defiance, you can throw Unchained on top of this to remove the 25% damage penalty for 20 seconds. They also have Internal Release at their disposal, and we'll just ignore the crit rate from defiance.

So please. Math at me.

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^ PLD would never out parse war equally geared>.> again many people talk it does with no real numbers to back it up. all parsers i have seen past months show war does more Damage yawn

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

^ PLD would never out parse war equally geared>.> again many people talk it does with no real numbers to back it up. all parsers i have seen past months show war does more Damage yawn

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See:

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Originally Posted by Launched

Anyone with both geared can just test it. I get 425-435 on WAR, 440-450 on PLD. DW axe vs DW sword and IW shield. http://i.imgur.com/i72jSZ0.png

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And if you think I'm bad, you can go test it yourself. But stop with that theorycraft nonsense. It's been known for a long time that tank DPS is:
Sword Oath PLD (with Eye) > WAR out of Defiance > Sword Oath PLD > Defiance WAR > Shield Oath WAR

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Originally Posted by Launched

See:



And if you think I'm bad, you can go test it yourself. But stop with that theorycraft nonsense. It's been known for a long time that tank DPS is:
Sword Oath PLD (with Eye) > WAR out of Defiance > Sword Oath PLD > Defiance WAR > Shield Oath WAR

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pretty sure you are the one with nonesense supporting shity old math with no proof lol, both tank close on DPS but still war does more "again parsers on final coil does show that by lots players"

and is that dummy parser? if so its bad yea, war can do 450+ and more if you get lucky crits

in your parser war doing less encDPS but more dmg, i guess you should try again and parse both with same encounter time ~

edit:

http://s12.postimg.org/h738axwrx/3min_dummy.jpg

months ago, no food/pot/pt

i had better parsers with food+pot and no PT not sure if i saved them i'll see when im home

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

pretty sure you are the one with nonesense supporting shity old math with no proof lol, both tank close on DPS but still war does more "again parsers on final coil does show that by lots players"

and is that dummy parser? if so its bad yea, war can do 450+ and more if you get lucky crits

in your parser war doing less encDPS but more dmg, i guess you should try again and parse both with same encounter time ~

edit:

http://s12.postimg.org/h738axwrx/3min_dummy.jpg

months ago, no food/pot/pt

i had better parsers with food+pot and no PT not sure if i saved them i'll see when im home

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You hit 450 BECAUSE of lucky crits (28% vs my 16%). You got 10 DPS extra on both autoattacks and Eye, not because of gear or skill, but because of a lucky run of crits. Give a PLD the same critrate and it'll still be ahead.

Sword Oath is ridiculous. It's a free 50-60 DPS just for pointing towards whatever you're fighting. It doesn't matter if it's a dummy, Imdugud or Bahamut, because both tanks would have the same uptime.

That doesn't mean that PLD is a better offtank, because there's more to it than just DPS. But OT DPS is the one area PLD wins in, and like I've said before, anyone with both geared can prove it.

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Originally Posted by Launched

hmhmhm

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excuses as always, parsers from over all net disagree with you so is many many top players yet you still cling on this false shit :)

just did 4 parsers i never drop below 440 and my crit rate always high >.> your gear isn't even optimized for war>.>

http://s29.postimg.org/e2mx5e8on/445.jpg

http://s30.postimg.org/dydrhb08h/447.jpg

http://s4.postimg.org/ciptk9kx9/452.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/nwvosnj3r/454.jpg

It's a pain to test because PLD needs the slashing debuff. Reddit has a math thread but I'm having trouble finding it.

And in three days... none of this matters.

^ thats for sure, jobs gona change abit

when the preliminary notes suppose to be up? i know yoshi will read them in about 12hrs however i hope its up to read for us before that /;

They'll probably be up before the reading, but your guess is as good as mine. :V

Paladin is fantastic at everything. As a main PLD I can parse 400+ easy in sword Oath. Crit on Halone can go to 1100+ with good dps acc. And defense is of course superior when used correctly. I PVP all the time and those cooldowns allow me to get focused and survive by hordes with good heals not to mention major mechanics in coil. Hallowed>Holmegang. Yes Warrior can burst But I'd much rather survive and provide steady decent dps in the long run and be able to cover/mitigate damage. Love my PLD

In terms of pure single target damage, a Sword Oath Paladin with Slash resist down will pull ahead of a Non-Defiance Warrior. (By a tiiiiiny bit) Purely on potencies. Sword Oath practically gives all your GCD skills 50 potency since a general auto attack for a paladin is 2.3 (with zeta, dread is faster etc etc). Effectively making Paladin's potency per action like so:

2.5sec GCD.

Fast Blade (200) > Savage Blade (250) > Rage of Halone (310) | 760

vs

Heavy Swing (180) > Skull Sunder (240) > Butcher's Block (336) | 756
Heavy Swing (180) > Maim (228) > Storm's Eye (324) | 732

So Total potency in 30 seconds is
PLD: 3040
WAR: 2976

Pretty damn close, but then PLD pulls slightly ahead by getting free 550 Pot from Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within.

But what about fracture and INNER BEAST?! They're both Effective 360 Potencies and can only be realistically used once each in our sample. So just take out the last 2 actions which is Skull and Butcher's or Maim and SE

PLD: 3590
WAR: 3132 or 3144


But what about mah FCOB parses?! I dun understands!
One simple answer:


ADDS

Poor Paladin sama has no AoE damage skills (besides CoS but lol yeah every 25 secs)
and this is where we Warrior's cheese the fuck out of our parses and go OVERPOWER OVERPOWER OVERPOWAAAAA! 2 adds?! 288 Pot PER GCD! 3 adds?! 432 PER GCD! 4? 5? 6?! You get the idea. And steel cyclone I guess if you really want to make your healers cry. 2 adds 480 pot 3 adds 720 pot etc etc etc.

So yes, Warriors do more damage even as OT, as long as there are 2 or more targets at some point during the encounter. Otherwise a PLD should pull ahead in SINGLE TARGET based upon Skill Potencies.

Final note: I can't be bothered with these but whatever, Warrior's AA's are 20% stronger cuz of maim. So I estimate they're closer to 3400 or so potency. Naturally Crit will also dilute parses and so on and so forth. Apply your blanket buffs etc etc. hnnngh. Expansion is coming with Deliverance \o/ so warriors might just flat out pull ahead in every scenario. Why did I waste my time with this.

I'm mathing out the difference and will continue to update as work allows. (simple math)

Check it out and let me know of any corrections. FoF is a flat 30% increase but I wasn't sure how to account for Zerk's 50% to attack power, so I just made it a 50% increase. Again I'm just keeping it simple.

http://www.beast40.com/FFXIV/

PLDWAR.xlsx is the file

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

blahblah[/SIZE]

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i like how you don't know what you talking about, most of wars never overpower on T10/T11/T12 and they still pull lots DPS, but again blahblah full of your self and your lolmath "i like how everyone forget to calculate IR but w/e"

i would like you go T11 and tank sphere and let me know how much you get captain obvious

old but w/e sadly i don't play war much since i main rofldin in my static

http://s7.postimg.org/moh39k7l7/t10_442.jpg

yea im not sure why i waste my time with this crap /sigh

IR is an extremely small DPS increase and a pain to math. We also left out shield swipe which is a large boost to PLD DPS. Shield swipe >>>>> IR

10% crit bonus for 15 seconds (6-7 GCDs plus 1 BS) is going to be small no matter what. .7 crits added per minute. (best case since crit dilutes itself as the rate increase) That's 4-5 dps total.


Also why are you getting defensive? You asked for Math and FallenWings provided some. How about you add your math and we can compare instead of sitting back and being annoyed you were proven wrong.

i asked for math? i never did i always mentioned most of math done here worth nothing when it comes to actual fights, i talk content and you guys give me dummy parsers lol

and im not being defensive i provided numbers while all you guys you give math and no real parsers with PLD doing more than war

and how is im proved wrong again and annoyed?? you guys all relay on math while im talking about parsers all time since ages on those forums

again show me some parsers where PLD do more than war please, but ofcourse since second coil its been same thing, we talk parsers and you talk math over and over, every time WAR comes ahead we see a excuses left and right.

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

i asked for math? i never did i always mentioned most of math done here worth nothing when it comes to actual fights, i talk content and you guys give me dummy parsers lol

and im not being defensive i provided numbers while all you guys you give math and no real parsers with PLD doing more than war

and how is im proved wrong again and annoyed?? you guys all relay on math while im talking about parsers all time since ages on those forums

again show me some parsers where PLD do more than war please, but ofcourse since second coil its been same thing, we talk parsers and you talk math over and over, every time WAR comes ahead we see a excuses left and right.

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I posted a parse of me beating one of Behemoths best WARs.....its extremely rare that I lose to a WAR in a parse except T13 where I turtle unless I'm with my static.

http://www.beast40.com/FFXIV/Parses/pldparse.png


We've also covered why WARs are typically ahead in parses even though the math doesn't support it. Parses are extremely easy to skew to any one job which is why they can not be the sole comparative point.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

I posted a parse of me beating one of Behemoths best WARs.....its extremely rare that I lose to a WAR in a parse except T13 where I turtle unless I'm with my static.

http://www.beast40.com/FFXIV/Parses/pldparse.png


We've also covered why WARs are typically ahead in parses even though the math doesn't support it. Parses are extremely easy to skew to any one job which is why they can not be the sole comparative point.

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that war doing really low dmg 420dps with i135 weapon is bad, i did around that in i125 weapon, and there is many wars around does better than me, you can check ther parsers with 450-470 DPS in T10

i already read what you call covered which is most of it isn't true, and i explained it too >.>

i also run turtle mostly on T13 since i try let healers DPS more especially on our speed kills

T12 PLD
http://s21.postimg.org/3sjuusttj/pld_413.jpg

T13
http://s8.postimg.org/9ug0gerj9/09b_JZZA.jpg

T11
http://s1.postimg.org/nlwh6aea7/Mk_Sy0_Hq.png

Pld's can hold agro i just find that for larger group of adds war does it better?
Not sure as i have not leveled warrior yet but just an observation.

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

that war doing really low dmg 420dps with i135 weapon is bad, i did around that in i125 weapon, and there is many wars around does better than me, you can check ther parsers with 450-470 DPS in T10

i already read what you call covered which is most of it isn't true, and i explained it too >.>

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That's where you miss the point of parses being relative. 8min in T10 as a WAR isn't exactly ideal.

I can skew any parse to make the WAR or PLD come out ahead, so they can only be part of the equation.

WAR and PLDs can hit 475-480 without the echo in T10, but that requires a full team and a fast kill.


Again most PLDs play with terrible gear selection and use shield oath.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

That's where you miss the point of parses being relative. 8min in T10 as a WAR isn't exactly ideal.

I can skew any parse to make the WAR or PLD come out ahead, so they can only be part of the equation.

WAR and PLDs can hit 475-480 without the echo in T10, but that requires a full team and a fast kill.


Again most PLDs play with terrible gear selection and use shield oath.

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pretty sure im missing no point, that war is low DPS for i135 weapon and gear, fight 8 min is not excuse.


that isn't true, ilya posted parse with pug doing 470+ DPS as war with around 8min kill and no echo and so is other guy from lamia i think had similar numbers with 8mins in pugs >.>

edit

here found one parser too 7:31 fight

http://i.imgur.com/Q3Y0CBT.png

That's exactly my point. When a BLM comes in 6th the adds were up way too long which pumps WAR DPS.

Again you can skew any parse to favor any job. WAR is always going to win on multiple targets.

Unless the PLD and WAR have equal gear a parse is never a good example. Again, most WARs gear for DPS and most PLDs don't. I still see PLDs using i110s which is complete /face palm.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

That's exactly my point. When a BLM comes in 6th the adds were up way too long which pumps WAR DPS.

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?

http://www.beast40.com/FFXIV/Parses/pldparse.png

thats your parse, and blm also come 6th too and even did lower than parse i posted so why war did only 420?

even on single target war will pull over slightly :O

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Originally Posted by Gildarts

?

[url]

even on single target war will pull over slightly :O

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Based on what? Eye balling? Trends in gear? Play style? Or are there some facts you'd like to bring to the discussion?

The parse I posted was garbage, same as yours. Parses DO NOT tell the story, especially considering the player base and how they think jobs should operate. I play WAR just as much as PLD. I'm not foolish enough to think WAR wins on single targets. (assumes slashing debuff for PLD)

If you want to compare a parse you need to know the layout and gear. Something like Lucerzia's parses would be worth considering because you know both players are geared correctly and play very well. (WAR edges out the PLD in this one)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0AyFjeIcaM

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

hm

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earlier you were bragging about beating one of behemoth best wars and now you saying its shit parser because its proven he was doing shit dmg talk about hypocrite dude.

and i pretty much i brought more facts than you and others did, you aren't only one who play war and pld many others do and most of tests dummy or content showed war does more dmg.

all you guys do is defending your math but when it comes to actual testing i see nothing, even before when you all were defending kitru lolmath layla did parse both on dummy and also proved war does more dmg however all you guys come with excuses again.

so besides excuses over and over what you bring to table? nothing at all

w/e im done

Highest mitigation, longest stun chains, good shields block a lot and let you use a potent move for 40 TP, they can become invincible for 10 seconds every 5 minutes. They can blind mobs, etc, etc. Every tank stands out from another in one way. Dark Knight will be no different.

Oh, and they can silence. People overlook that a lot.

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Originally Posted by Hieral

Oh, and they can silence. People overlook that a lot.

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There doesn't seem to be a lot of fights that really take advantage of the Silence mechanic over Stun, so I can see why Spirits Within might be more relegated to DPS duty.

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Originally Posted by Syfer22

There doesn't seem to be a lot of fights that really take advantage of the Silence mechanic over Stun, so I can see why Spirits Within might be more relegated to DPS duty.

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ADS did back when first coil was relevant, but that was usually split with Bards. But Spirits is off GCD, which makes it good for any situation that needs it.

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Originally Posted by Syfer22

There doesn't seem to be a lot of fights that really take advantage of the Silence mechanic over Stun, so I can see why Spirits Within might be more relegated to DPS duty.

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The annoyance of no tanks or DPS silencing Chimera in ARR The Chimera, the FATE, or the WOD comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by Hieral

Oh, and they can silence. People overlook that a lot.

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Cause it's only relevant in like three eight man fights, and two of them are from first coil.