Am I the only one that sort of kinda likes the nerf to SoF?

Meanwhile, behind the facade of this innocent looking forum...

Yoshi P et al are watching us dance and eating popcorn.

...Or whatever they eat at the theater in Japan. I'm thinking popcorn. It's a different world over there, so I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Right now, the main scenario requires no skill. To use your minigolf and bowling examples, it's like aiming at one pin in a bowling lane that has bumpers over both gutters, or like playing a mini golf lane that's just a straight line with no humps or anything. I'm sure there are people who would like that, but we can both agree that it's not for everyone, right?

I'm not asking for great things, here. I'd like to think I'm a decent player, but I'm almost certainly not among the best. I'm certainly not going to be contending for server or world firsts any time soon. And I'm not asking anyone to get to my level, or to get to the levels of BG or Lucrezia. I'm not even asking to meet in the middle, so to speak. I'm asking that maybe we teach people how a golfball rolls down hill, or how it bounces off the walls to let you get to a hole around a corner. Or maybe remove the bumpers from the bowling lanes.

What kept people from doing SoF before the nerfs, to continue the metaphor, is that some people are so excruciatingly bad at it that it's like they managed to gutter-ball even with the bumpers on. Which wouldn't be so bad (I mean, it's bad but it's kinda tolerable) if there were any actual rewards, especially if the rewards were commensurate with the time. Unfortunately, you have an instance with essentially no rewards and a high time requirement even if you succeed on the first try.

Now, if SE would actually implement stuff (like they started to with Chrysalis and SoF) to try to raise the lowest common denominator, people might actually get better. If people get better, we would expect to see fewer people throwing their bowling ball across three lanes. Which means that when you get an instance like SoF, you can reasonably expect success within the first try or two without also feeling like some of the party aren't pulling their weight at all. All SE has done here is allow people to play worse while still succeeding.

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THIS. ALL OF THIS. CAN I FRAME THIS ON MY WALL PLEASE

Hard to say, I haven't done SoF yet. If it makes it easier for new players to clear the trial and progress in the story, I do not mind at all.

Did any other region i.e.: non U.S. players Need the nerf as well or was it mainly done for our region. I'm noticing a trend with content makers nerfing or "Changing" classes, quests, dungeons, mechanics and other aspects in many games to suit western culture.

As frustrated as I was with how many times I had to do steps of Faith, the completion of it was super rewarding because of how difficult it was. :D

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Originally Posted by Fallenstarz

Did any other region i.e.: non U.S. players Need the nerf as well or was it mainly done for our region. I'm noticing a trend with content makers nerfing or "Changing" classes, quests, dungeons, mechanics and other aspects in many games to suit western culture.

As frustrated as I was with how many times I had to do steps of Faith, the completion of it was super rewarding because of how difficult it was. :D

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Its too bad you don't get anything for doing it.

http://http://forum.square-enix.com/...96%84%E7%82%B9 there is a japanese thread talking about steps of faith. for once this does not appear to be a uniquely american problem.

Achievement: Help 10 players first clear the steps of faith (this can proc multiple times an instance.
Dragon Mount
Achievement: Help 20 players first clear the steps of faith (this can proc multiple times an instance.
Dragon's Bane Title
Achievement: Help 30 players first clear the steps of faith (this can proc multiple times an instance.
Dragonslayer Armor (unique armor that all players can wear/color.)
Dragonslayer Robes (unique armor that all players can wear/color.)

This would of been a much better way to fix the problem.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Achievement: Help 10 players first clear the steps of faith (this can proc multiple times an instance.
Dragon Mount
Achievement: Help 20 players first clear the steps of faith (this can proc multiple times an instance.
Dragon's Bane Title
Achievement: Help 30 players first clear the steps of faith (this can proc multiple times an instance.
Dragonslayer Armor (unique armor that all players can wear/color.)
Dragonslayer Robes (unique armor that all players can wear/color.)

This would of been a much better way to fix the problem.

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Not really. Since then you'd have people complaining about it being unobtainable after everyone gets their clear lol. Oddly enough, incentive is either too uneffective or it becomes seen as necessary... and anything necessary is met with angst.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Not really. Since then you'd have people complaining about it being unobtainable after everyone gets their clear lol. Oddly enough, incentive is either too uneffective or it becomes seen as necessary... and anything necessary is met with angst.

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Not really, new players would need to do it to to get to the new expansion, since its part of the main storyline. They cannot access the expansion without doing this. Think outside the box a little.

People still do 2.0x stuff for clears today!

I don't think it was the right decision. They should have just created two versions in the first place: story mode and hard/extreme mode. Story mode can be as easy as the currently nerfed version right now, while hard/extreme mode has difficulty on par with other ex mode primals, balanced around an average ilevel of 120-130 and drops i130 rings (because this is the only patch cycle that only has two ways of obtaining highest ilevel rings)

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

Not really. Since then you'd have people complaining about it being unobtainable after everyone gets their clear lol. Oddly enough, incentive is either too uneffective or it becomes seen as necessary... and anything necessary is met with angst.

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Agreed, giving the trial a reward like glamour and titles that requires a grind would just lead to a similar situation. A situation where those striving to grind out the reward still cause problems for newcomers to the trail because they want the group to complete it easily, quickly and with only those proficient in the trial so as to make their grind more efficient.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Not really, new players would need to do it to to get to the new expansion, since its part of the main storyline. They cannot access the expansion without doing this. Think outside the box a little.

People still do 2.0x stuff for clears today!

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You need to think about it. If you give veterans a reason to grind this Trial specifically they are going to exclude and belittle new players even more due to them impacting their grind for their reward.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Agreed, giving the trial a reward like glamour and titles that requires a grind would just lead to a similar situation. A situation where those striving to grind out the reward still cause problems for newcomers to the trail because they want the group to complete it easily, quickly and with only those proficient in the trial so as to make their grind more efficient.



You need to think about it. If you give veterans a reason to grind this Trial specifically they are going to exclude and belittle new players even more due to them impacting their grind for their reward.

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Thats why instead of a "Grind" it needs to be an achievement based on how many people you HELP. That way you get more of the achievement for every new player doing it.

So you can't just take 1 new person in and the rest veterans.

"Help 10, 20, 30 players complete the steps of faith"

Of you take 1 new person, that is only 1 at a time you will earn. However with more new players it becomes 2x, 3x , 4x-full group x quicker!

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Not really, new players would need to do it to to get to the new expansion, since its part of the main storyline. They cannot access the expansion without doing this. Think outside the box a little.

People still do 2.0x stuff for clears today!

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Sorry, I didn't make it clear on my reply. I meant that the complaints would be about it being unobtainable, even if that may not be the actual case. Even with incentives like that, it's not really reason enough for people to do something they, as a result of existing bad impressions, would mostly steer away from anyway. Point was, complaining happens and incentives aren't really enough in some cases. Steps is unique in how frequently people just leave before it even begins. Even AV, for as much dread as that instance gets, doesn't suffer the same treatment as frequently.

Most of the reasons why its Unobtainable is new freshly geared ilvl90s came into the zone with others with health under 4k expecting to get it cleared. My healer (new player!) has 6k hp! I won't be one shot to the old stomp, BUT NEW PLAYERS WILL, they have 3.5k health!

GEAR DOES MATTER NO MATTER WHAT PEOPLE SAY!

AlSO people leaving! So many people leave when it starts! This is incentive for people to actually STAY and explain the fights.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Thats why instead of a "Grind" it needs to be an achievement based on how many people you HELP. That way you get more of the achievement for every new player doing it.

So you can't just take 1 new person in and the rest veterans.

"Help 10, 20, 30 players complete the steps of faith"

Of you take 1 new person, that is only 1 at a time you will earn. However with more new players it becomes 2x, 3x , 4x-full group x quicker!

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Using the term "help" loosely. They aren't there to help, they are there to grind for the titles and glamour, the new player be damned. Veterans will simply queue hoping for a new player, exploit said new player, or leave when there is no newcomer. It is no different than those that fish for 100 sol bonus individuals. Why encourage negative behavior on the part of veterans when this nerf already helps newcomers succeed easier without veteran aid.

I can barely tell what nektulos is even talking about but please make it stop.

It's an unreasonable goal, because newbies can only have their steps of faith virginity popped once. Constantly finding new people to achieve this is unrealistic.

Darn I fed troll. lets see how this goes

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

The problem with the Trial was that youre asking a random group of people over the internet to cooperate.

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That's on them, not the game. I did SoF first week in DF, qued solo as tank, no one knew what to do, we wiped once learning the mechanics and we killed on the second try. Players can cooperate if they want to, problem is too many go in as solo heros and fail. Then blame everyone else. "I can do it, it's the other 7 that always mess up".

I'm not keen on the nerf for the simple reason if players can cry nerf on anything they have to put any effort into then they will never learn. Just like spoilt children get everything given and then continue through life expecting the same from everyone.

Ppl r getting "helping" and "carried" mixed in together.
They are 2 different things.

Helping = helping ppl learn the fight -> allows them to understand the fight thus making them capable of helping others = more ppl know fight = less bad players

Carrying = ur dead a lot/ dunno what to do and rather do their own stuff than take criticism and improve = bad player = dunno fight despite u clearing it = not being able to prove tht ur clear worthy if u were to re do that instance.

I'm fine with the nerf on SoF simply because it is main story content, and the item level requirement for it is very low compared to how strong the enemies originally were. While the community is really strong now in terms of item level (average of 120 maybe?), the fact that they implied that it could be completed by a team of IL90 people is something to consider. Would a boss with that amount of HP really be defeated by eight IL90s? Imagine IL90 tanks getting whacked by those adds and that underfoot attack; it's not their fault that they got in and had to face a big-azz boss... the duty let them in.

That said, the lack of cooperation reminds me of a "lone wolf" assassin player that I met in another MMO. He was so pissed off that he couldn't complete duties "by himself" and that he actually had to "go in with a group of people". I wonder what he thought "MMORPG" meant xD

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Originally Posted by Neuflune

I'm fine with the nerf on SoF simply because it is main story content, and the item level requirement for it is very low compared to how strong the enemies originally were. While the community is really strong now in terms of item level (average of 120 maybe?), the fact that they implied that it could be completed by a team of IL90 people is something to consider. Would a boss with that amount of HP really be defeated by eight IL90s? Imagine IL90 tanks getting whacked by those adds and that underfoot attack; it's not their fault that they got in and had to face a big-azz boss... the duty let them in.

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Yes, a group of i90s/i100s should be able to clear the fight if they follow the intended strategy, but no one does the intended strategy.

The intended strategy is:

1. All 4 DpS each man a cannon at the start of each stage.
2. Tanks pull adds between closest cannon set.
3. Healers heal.
4. DpS on Front cannons use cannons to attack Vishap. DpS on Rear cannons use Cannons to kill adds and Miniboss.
5. When Front cannons are targeted by Vishaps AoE, DpS on them disengage for them and help finish of the adds/Miniboss.
6. Tanks grab new adds and tanks them under Vishap
7. Rear Cannon DpS pound Vishap, adds and if (necessary) Miniboss.
8. During Stages 2, 3 and 4 a healer runs up Tower.
9. During Stages 3 and 4 Front DpS run to Snares and use them to stun/fetter Vishap.
10. Front cannon DpS start directly DpSing Vishap.
11. During Stages 2, 3 and 4 healer uses Dragonkiller when Vishap is in range and (if stage 3 and 4) snared.
12. When Rear cannons targeted by cone AoE everyone starts directly DpSing Vishap until barrier falls.
13. Repeat from Step 1 until victory or defeat.

Totally agree with the nerf.
I only can think the issue with SoF were so serious that SE done heavy nerfs on purpose, expansion if just a few weeks away and too much people stuck there.

Expansion is intended for everyone, not only the pros.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Now, if SE would actually implement stuff (like they started to with Chrysalis and SoF) to try to raise the lowest common denominator, people might actually get better. If people get better, we would expect to see fewer people throwing their bowling ball across three lanes. Which means that when you get an instance like SoF, you can reasonably expect success within the first try or two without also feeling like some of the party aren't pulling their weight at all. All SE has done here is allow people to play worse while still succeeding.

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this :)
they did that early on, by trying to teach ppl how do deal with mechanics, through quests. There was that gargoyle that poisoned you, so you were supposed to use the antidotes that were given to you...but ppl didn't, and just tried to bash their heads at the gargoyle, never trying to understand it. So instead of asking for tips how to clear the fight, they just complain. so now the poison is so weak, you can ignore it.
There's a few quests where you're supposed to use items, to weaken mob...and most of the time when i see ppl fighting them, they don't.

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Originally Posted by Rendecrow

There is plenty of hard mode content out there for people

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I'd like a list of this 'plenty of hard content'.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Isn't that the notion of selfishness?

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Are you saying that the people who play bad, expecting to get carried, are not selfish?

Also, newsflash: Everyone plays for fun. Did you honestly believe that people who want to play good are not having fun?)

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Originally Posted by Elazu

I'd like a list of this 'plenty of hard content'.

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Extreme primals, FCOB T13 and savage.
Yep plenty, plenty indeed... (sarcasm).

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Extreme primals, FCOB T13 and savage.
Yep plenty, plenty indeed... (sarcasm).

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As long as we're all pretending to be Lucrezia, none of these are hard and this game is nothing but casual content for casuals. I'm going back to Chess 2.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

As long as we're all pretending to be Lucrezia, none of these are hard and this game is nothing but casual content for casuals. I'm going back to Chess 2.

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I am not exactly sure how you meant it. But I don't have to be as skilled as Lucrezia's members to say that for me there is no other hard content than the content I have mentioned and even the primals are kinda balancing between normal and hard.

If you find other content to be hard or challenging, that is good for you, but those are not my words.

If you didn't meant it as a sarcasm, I am sorry.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Yes, a group of i90s/i100s should be able to clear the fight if they follow the intended strategy

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Correct but pre nerf, 1 missed dk or a tank not picking up adds fast enough were causing wipes. Hence the nerf.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Extreme primals, FCOB T13 and savage.
Yep plenty, plenty indeed... (sarcasm).

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Extreme primals is hard?

Scratch that, read that as "now" when I assume you meant at launch. Even still, barring Titan... never found the EX primals to be more than "mildly challenging". Even Titan was more just "don't make a mistake" ala T7. If you mean now then yeah: Savage Coil and uhhh, certain Final Coils.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

As long as we're all pretending to be Lucrezia, none of these are hard and this game is nothing but casual content for casuals. I'm going back to Chess 2.

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Who's pretending to be Lucrezia? Your saying you need to be a top tier raid group to clear anything outside of those? lol.

Personally? I now have a legitimate reason to quit this trial when I get it in roulette now. It's boring as pi## now.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Totally agree with the nerf.
I only can think the issue with SoF were so serious that SE done heavy nerfs on purpose, expansion if just a few weeks away and too much people stuck there.

Expansion is intended for everyone, not only the pros.

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Still a month away, so the nerf could have happened on or just before expansion day. Also, communication and coordination was all it required (Chrysalis is pretty much the hardest story Trial now, as it has two mechanics). Vet players just needed to not leave the instance if they got it as a roulette and the exceptionally bad players holding casual players back needed to stop making everyone else do the work and start being a part of the team for once.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Still a month away, so the nerf could have happened on or just before expansion day. Also, communication and coordination was all it required (Chrysalis is pretty much the hardest story Trial now, as it has two mechanics). Vet players just needed to not leave the instance if they got it as a roulette and the exceptionally bad players holding casual players back needed to stop making everyone else do the work and start being a part of the team for once.

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Eh, if you're gonna nerf you might as well do it a few weeks prior just to make sure people have a reasonable chance to do it before it absolutely matters. I mean, I don't like that it was nerfed, but if it was gonna happen I'd say the end of May is the latest I'd pick to do it.