Community - The Most Likely Cause of the Game's Downfall

I am expecting this to be on the "Many Deaths of FFXIV" thread.

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

Hurray, exactly the people I was talking about...

I'm not asking whether I deserve or want anything or doing any of that nonsense you are assuming. Simply saying you need it too is more than enough, randomly acting like you need to say nothing and act as if you deserve it is exactly what you are saying I'm doing. Freaking hypocrites.

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No one owes you an explanation, feeling you are entitled to it is your problem. Do you want to know if they are going to need too so you can kick them or drop? Someone is being in selfish in this and it isn't who you think it is.

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Originally Posted by Kasenai

Everything you say is wrong. No one needs to justify their intent to you. And why would you possibly need to know it? For a kick, a log-out or to try and talk them out of looting? Doesn't sound like you have anyones interest at heart but your own.

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Well said sir.

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Originally Posted by Frankenberry

Completely agree. Not only that but most of the posts I see are people complaining about other people for not watching videos on fights and acting like those people are the bad guys. When did it become a requirement to watch someone else play content so that you can do it???

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♥ yup the general consensus is that you must watch before you get to experience it, that's so sad. I have been told that i am selfish for going into df not knowing anything about a fight. I don't always have people to play with so I will do df but I don't want to ruin the surprise. I want to experience the content. I won't rush people through cutscenes. Its sad but in order to have fun with the new content I feel like I must do it within the first days and put a pf up requesting people who haven't done it before. Those dungeons have been the most fun, trying to work out how todo it :) then the next run you get instructions on how to cut all the corners to do it asap :(

If you play these games long you enough RNG will screw you. I can understand why people try to set up a situation where if the thing they want drops, they get it. You have been trying to get something forever, it finally drops you lose, it sucks. You feel bad, you want to blame someone, it is easy to blame the person who won, they didn't deserve it as much as you(you feel). If you want to set up that situation, you can. It likely involves you doing it for others first, IE giving of yourself and your time so others will do it for you in return. You need to make FRIENDS, expecting to do this with strangers is absurd. You join the duty finder or PF because you friends are not on it, deal with the social conventions of that and don't expect people to modify them for you.

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

No one owes you an explanation, feeling you are entitled to it is your problem. Do you want to know if they are going to need too so you can kick them or drop? Someone is being in selfish in this and it isn't who you think it is.

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So I'm being selfish and entitled for the grandiose crime...of someone simply saying they need the gear too? Holy ****, I didn't think I would see someone so pretentious act as if that is so selfish of me to even get a damn answer, whether they need or not for ANY purpose.

Seriously, you have enough time to continue typing all this on the forums, yet can type up 4 simple words? I'm not even agreeing with the OP on any level but this is ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by SynMaris

I complained when someone called me a dick? You want to be able to need on gear then queue up for the job that will allow the need roll, simple as that.

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"I had 2 times where I asked in the polite manner if I can have this gear(CT Tank gear for my Elezen because let's face it Lorica gear is HORRIFIC on females and Scylla Gloves for my Roe because my Evenstar gloves clash badly with it) and I don't even get an ANSWER FROM THE PERSON WHO ROLLS AND WINS IT! In CT, the other Tank didn't need the CT hatpiece, but he never said anything about wanting it either, he just rolled on it, laughed and left. And yesterday, the other mage(yes, I rolled as a BLM and mainly had a Mage party...) again said nothing and rolled on it even when the others said they'll pass. My main issue is INTENT and not voicing it."

"Otherwise, I do try to be considerate to those who are weaker than me if I don't need and I won't raise a fuss if I play Monk and a Dragoon piece drops and vice versa for my other alts. And going back to the top, atleast be CONSIDERATE enough to state whether you need the pieces for BiS/Syn/Glamour, don't just take, you don't really look good doing so and continuously staying silent after the fact."

Why would I say any of that...if I didn't show up as the class I'm aiming that gear for?

Reading Comprehension...it's not just a commodity.

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Originally Posted by Kasenai

Everything you say is wrong. No one needs to justify their intent to you. And why would you possibly need to know it? For a kick, a log-out or to try and talk them out of looting? Doesn't sound like you have anyones interest at heart but your own.

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Very well said.

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Originally Posted by Aivi_lo

♥ yup the general consensus is that you must watch before you get to experience it, that's so sad. I have been told that i am selfish for going into df not knowing anything about a fight. I don't always have people to play with so I will do df but I don't want to ruin the surprise. I want to experience the content. I won't rush people through cutscenes. SNIP:(

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It just depends on who you are. If if it takes you a long time to learn something, you should not put that on strangers, you should do what you can to make it easier on you and others. If you normally pick up stuff of fairly quickly I am willing to explain it to you, stand up for you if people bully you and not make you feel bad if you make a mistake. If you make the same mistakes over and over thats different.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The day you start paying for my subscription, then you decide which loot is mine and which one is yours. Until then, if I can need on something, I will. I don't give a damn if someone else could have used it for more than I did, I don't know that person and for all I know, that person wouldn't have done it for anybody else.

Call me selfish or whatever you like, you're a nobody to me and I could care less about what you think.

If this community is considered one of the best, gaming is in an atrocious state.

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

Simply saying you need it too is more than enough, randomly acting like you need to say nothing and act as if you deserve it is exactly what you are saying I'm doing. Freaking hypocrites.

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The nonsense you type brought up a scenario in my head of two strangers standing at a cooler with sandwiches in it.
One of them decided on a sandwich finally, but just as they did the other person takes said sandwich.
So one stranger says to the other ... "Why didn't you just TELL me you needed it!?"
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Yeah...that sounds normal.
Pretty sure people don't go around a grocery store declaring out loud "HEY I NEED THIS" on everything they grab to make sure no one else needed it, its there, they are there, they want it, they take it, they had enough money to buy it, they go home. (you didn't have enough money for your CT piece obviously)

If you are surrounded by strangers don't expect them to announce all their intentions or be surprised if you get ignored since you know...they don't know you.
Even if they answer and declare their intentions what does it change? They still roll you still lose lot...nothing changed. You are basically just mad you lost lot in a fair RNG against another player and at being ignored...on an MMO, I think you must be new to online games?

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

So I'm being selfish and entitled for the grandiose crime...of someone simply saying they need the gear too? Holy ****, I didn't think I would see someone so pretentious act as if that is so selfish of me to even get a damn answer, whether they need or not for ANY purpose.

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Stop. You can come up with more and more elaborate justifications of why you deserve the gear more than the person you rolled against, but it's irrelevant. They have the same right to roll that you do. Period. You don't get to vet their reasons for rolling and they have no obligation to explain it to you.

Greetings, all!

This thread has certainly taken a rather negative turn, both in direct insults and negative tones in sincere replies. There is certainly a valuable discussion to be had here about working together as a community and obtaining loot, and this discussion can be had without any of the negative aspects. Removing the direct insults should be easy (don't do it); however, tone can be difficult on an online medium. I recommend taking a moment to review what you write and to consider it from a negative standpoint to determine if it can be taken negatively. While this may not prevent it from being taken with a negative tone, a second glance can certainly help out a lot in heated and passionate discussions like this.

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Originally Posted by Stihllodeing

3) The lack of a moderator presence in the official forums.

Most successful forums (or forums I believe to be successful and rather drama free) are the ones that have very obvious and direct moderator intervention. They place warnings in topics for all to see. Sometimes they just delete a post entirely and replace it with "Post has been removed by moderator for violation/flaming/off topic" or will have an actual warning sign with a comment and warning from a moderator. It's not that the moderators in those forums make themselves a part of conversations, but they don't ghost erase posts without any sign of intervention. I also see the moderators here just lock a thread instead of cleaning it up which isn't fair to those who were engaging in stimulating conversation.

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Taking a moment to address this point as well, the moderation style you bring up is not often used because of our privacy policy. By noting that we took action against a post, it would indicate that we took action against an account, which is only information the owner of the account should be entitled to. As for posting more often, we do post when closing a thread or trying to correct the direction of a thread, as is being done here. However, we do not do this often since threads generally do well in staying on topic or die out before a GM response would be given.

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by Miste

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I get the feeling you like seeing yourself type...
You are exaggerating what I'm talking about but nice try. I don't remember me saying that for everything or me saying I say that for everything or it applies to everything. All I said as if someone asks that they need something, randomly changing that whole thing to "people going to ask for everything" nonsense isn't attacking my point in anyway, it just continues to point out how ridiculous this whole thing is with simply saying you need it as well IF someone asks if they can have something.

There is no entitlement in it whatsoever, so try again.
And P.S. this is not my first MMO and I barely even played in MMOs that had the greed system to begin with and barely cared.

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Originally Posted by Ryuukishi

Stop. You can come up with more and more elaborate justifications of why you deserve the gear more than the person you rolled against, but it's irrelevant. They have the same right to roll that you do. Period. You don't get to vet their reasons for rolling and they have no obligation to explain it to you.

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Oh well hey, it's funny because the people who responded to me is doing the exact same nonsense. I'll I asked is simply saying SOMETHING, you is literally defending the right to be a troll yet not wanting to be called one. There is no justification or just cause for simply not saying ANYTHING, that's being lazy. And your defense is pretentious.

And hiding behind MMO logic doesn't stop you from being a troll. It's your right to do what you do, it's my right to call you a troll, we both payed money for this game monthly and THAT is my right.

Why would these new players need gear from HM Primals when it becomes obsolete a little after hitting 50 (soldiery weapon)

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Greetings, all!

This thread has certainly taken a rather negative turn, both in direct insults and negative tones in sincere replies.
....trying to correct the direction of a thread, as is being done here. However, we do not do this often since threads generally do well in staying on topic or die out before a GM response would be given.

LGM Enkrateia

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I think perhaps this thread has gone too far down the road of personal insults to be pulled back. ^^' The two sides are very firmly on each side and are unable to understand any other viewpoint but their own due to their personal experiences in the game. I'll stick my neck out and call for closure. Overwhelming negativity isn't good for the front page of the forum.

Since 2.5 I've used over 350,000 GC seals. Sorry but I didn't get those by running fates and certainly don't plan on doing that in the future. If someone asks for a pass on a particular set of gear I'll consider it. And you better believe if I'm interested in a particular piece of gear for glamour I'll jump at getting it. One thing is for sure I'm not about to check the gear level of players in my party to make a decision about whether or not I'm going to roll on a particular set of gear.

Furthermore I'm not sure what type of free companies people belong too but in ours our crafters are quick to help new players by making gear for them not only for War classes but for Crafting classes as well.

Sadly the name calling started early on by calling people douche's and selfish. There is or was no need to get into name calling to have a discussion of this sort.

16 Bombard Cores for these.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/...94e503e2_o.jpg

It is my opinion that, whenever you queue up for an instance, you agree to the predetermined loot rules for that instance. While Party Finder can define their own rules (i.e. called items), when you queue for Duty Finder with even 1 slot open you are agreeing to the default loot system, which is Need/Greed. If you are a tank but need MNK items for instance, the fact you ran it on a tank class for faster queue times shouldn't give you more right to the MNK gear than the other players in the instance with you. If a player only rolls on it to turn in for seals, that should not be an issue.

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

Oh well hey, it's funny because the people who responded to me is doing the exact same nonsense. I'll I asked is simply saying SOMETHING, you is literally defending the right to be a troll yet not wanting to be called one. There is no justification or just cause for simply not saying ANYTHING, that's being lazy. And your defense is pretentious.

And hiding behind MMO logic doesn't stop you from being a troll. It's your right to do what you do, it's my right to call you a troll, we both payed money for this game monthly and THAT is my right.

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He's simply stating that them saying they're going for something or not doesn't make a difference. It's possible they didn't know that item dropped. It's possible they didn't know it had that stat allocation. It's possible they don't read party chat. It's possible they are playing on a playstation and typing is a PITA so they don't bother.

Unless you plan on dropping group or initiating a votekick for them, the results will still be a 50/50 chance of you getting it if they say they want it or not. Some people are just not as talkative as others.

There are plenty of reasons to turn in items for seals that don't fall into the category of "wasted". Maybe the person is working on their Zodiac weapon and needs seals for Bombard Cores. Maybe they want to trade those seals in for crafting items for Lucis tools. Just because you don't know their intentions doesn't make them a "greedy player", it really isn't your business in the first place what they do with a drop they legitimately won. What it boils down to is this: Do you need Demon Armor of Fending? RUN WoD ON A TANK CLASS. Otherwise don't get all bent out of shape when you are on BRD and you greed it, only to be beaten by someone else who greeded with you.

Apologies! I usually include this in my refocusing posts, and neglected to do so here.

If the thread does continue to remain off the topic or negative, I will close the thread. However, the refocusing post gives a chance to correct the discussion and possibly yield a better discussion instead of just closing it. So, moving forward, the thread should be more focused on the topics I raised. If there was a violation in the past, it can be reported and we will investigate it. But it doesn't matter which minor transgression (not a violation) occurred first in the past, so long as the thread does better moving forward.

LGM Enkrateia

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Originally Posted by Nymeia

The community? Really isn't that great. Gaming communities? Never going to be great. I've been on MMOs 10 years.

However, general attitudes on this game can be horrendous...

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So you've just stated the obvious. What now?

Pointing an accusatory finger at the community in an attempt shame them into better behavior probably won't work and accomplishes nothing, aside from adding more negativity to the forums.

I'm not defending the toxic community, but I say SE is partly responsible with their take on grinding. They have a lengthy grind, and then in the next content update they have players grind the same old grinds even more. It's not fun and it's turning this game into a job for many players, which I find profoundly sad.

I say they ease up the grind, or keep the super grinds to newer content, away from new or casual players.


And no, this game will live on despite the rotten apples in the community, after all, Wow is still profitable by quite a large margin.

While I agree that certain aspects of the community suck, it also has many more champion-worthy parts. Such as - in FFXI you'd have to pay for a raise but in FFXIV people will gladly come along - or experienced players joining a newbie's party finder for relic quest just to help out. Also, the loot isnt a great example of a let-down. If the new player is doing the run as the job the loot is for then theyve more chance of obtaining it - if they're losing out to someone else on 4 attempts then that sounds a bit iffy to me. New players will better learn the mannerisms of the game and community if the opportunities are equal.

I'm gonna hope my 10-foot pole will keep me safe from the debate about mmo property rights and just add that there are far better weapon options, even as a fresh 50, than hm primal weapons. Heck, just get your i80 relic (guaranteed after doing each of em once instead of hoping both that the drop drops and that no one rolls on it). After the first weap it'd be much easier to just ST farm for their alt weapons. Heck, even at launch hm primal weapons weren't that great as filler gear.

I'd also like to mention that the value of gear for most pre-50 content for purposes other than glamours or desynth or GC turn ins is really not that great. The pink gear has maybe 1 or 2 slightly better stat points than its equivalent HQ crafted gear, and it's going to be obsolete in five levels regardless. Depending on the server's economy, it's entirely possible for a new player to be decked out with HQ everything purchased from the market board, if they think to update their gear. Other content in the game throws mid-level gear at you constantly with no lotting competition. You could level up entirely in quest gear without ever seeing a single dungeon drop, and no one would be the wiser.

That said, I always pass on the level 15 gear in the baby dungeons because I already have it all, and it's the only cool looking outfits most new players will see until well past level 30.

One thing to note as to why someone may not say that they are needing a item is because of certain results. For example a healer in a wp HM came in and demanded that no one roll on any caster gear or else they wouldn't heal. Now in this instance we had no blm or smn It was this healers intention to hold the dungeon hostage until we agreed in chat. While i can see that for certain items like mounts or minions that cant be traded that once you activate it you shouldn't be able to roll on it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Lethallin

He's simply stating that them saying they're going for something or not doesn't make a difference. It's possible they didn't know that item dropped. It's possible they didn't know it had that stat allocation. It's possible they don't read party chat. It's possible they are playing on a playstation and typing is a PITA so they don't bother.

Unless you plan on dropping group or initiating a votekick for them, the results will still be a 50/50 chance of you getting it if they say they want it or not. Some people are just not as talkative as others.

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And it's possible that they are trolls, it works in every single factor. I don't honestly believe that they just plain don't know anyway to communicate at all at post-game content. And I don't kick people for taking gear no matter what, I get pissed but I don't kick. I only kick when they act like douchebags over it.

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Originally Posted by Nymeia

Yes, they can farm Atma when they don't even have their first Zenith, and are wanting them for future relic quests they're not far off! the person I'm helping has a Lv 42 SCH/SMN and a lv36 BLM they want gear for, too!

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Imo, you shouldnt roll on level 50 items if your jobs aren't at 50. Its a raid rule my statics have always gone by. If it cant wear it now, and are not going to use it frequently, then you dont need it.

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

Apologies! I usually include this in my refocusing posts, and neglected to do so here.

If the thread does continue to remain off the topic or negative, I will close the thread. However, the refocusing post gives a chance to correct the discussion and possibly yield a better discussion instead of just closing it. So, moving forward, the thread should be more focused on the topics I raised. If there was a violation in the past, it can be reported and we will investigate it. But it doesn't matter which minor transgression (not a violation) occurred first in the past, so long as the thread does better moving forward.

LGM Enkrateia

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May as well give it the ol' lock-a-roo.

Because a lot of us are against what OP's trying to say and saying we suck apparently.

@OP: If anyone needs to roll in DF, speak now or forever hold your tears, I don't mind if you ask nicely!
But no if you're going to sound demanding I ain't doing nothing...This is why you make friends doe.

In OP's defence there were several times we asked people if it were okay if our friend got the loot and we were ignored each time. So asking doesn't always work as people seem to think it does.

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Originally Posted by CrestNovia

In OP's defence there were several times we asked people if it were okay if our friend got the loot and we were ignored each time. So asking doesn't always work as people seem to think it does.

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No one said that will always work. The exception most of the replies in this thread took was due to the OP making sweeping generalizations about the community as a whole because they chose to enter content with a group of strangers and then were put out when said strangers didn't abide by the OP's loot rules. As for determining who needs an item, how exactly do you make the claim that your friend "needs" those drops anymore than the person that wants to use them for glamor, desynthesis, or GC seals does?

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Originally Posted by Nymeia

I'm saying be damn considerate, it's something half of you don't understand. Consideration for a point where you once were. Second, if you've been farming that long for 1 book, you could just buy the EX book materials, it looks better anyway. People must be rich enough stealing all the gear off newer players for their precious seals and desynth.

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By that same way of thinking, what's stopping you from making your friend the higher level version of the weapon to use? Or even one of the newer wootz weapons?

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Originally Posted by Xhominid

I get the feeling you like seeing yourself type...
You are exaggerating what I'm talking about but nice try. I don't remember me saying that for everything or me saying I say that for everything or it applies to everything. All I said as if someone asks that they need something, randomly changing that whole thing to "people going to ask for everything" nonsense isn't attacking my point in anyway, it just continues to point out how ridiculous this whole thing is with simply saying you need it as well IF someone asks if they can have something.

There is no entitlement in it whatsoever, so try again.
And P.S. this is not my first MMO and I barely even played in MMOs that had the greed system to begin with and barely cared.

Oh well hey, it's funny because the people who responded to me is doing the exact same nonsense. I'll I asked is simply saying SOMETHING, you is literally defending the right to be a troll yet not wanting to be called one. There is no justification or just cause for simply not saying ANYTHING, that's being lazy. And your defense is pretentious.

And hiding behind MMO logic doesn't stop you from being a troll. It's your right to do what you do, it's my right to call you a troll, we both payed money for this game monthly and THAT is my right.

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So...I explain how realistically what you are asking for is never gonna happen and you say I just like seeing myself. Despite the fact that line makes no sense since you do not know anything about me, I will try to clarify to you what I meant.

Your main argument has been that people don't respond when you ask politely that you really would like something. I clearly pointed out that these people are random players who have no connection to you therefore may choose to ignore you, sorry but you do not matter to them. You can think it rude, you can think it lazy, but really don't waste your energy getting mad about it.

98% of the time the person who "didn't respond and rolled anyway" did not do it as some kinda troll attack against you. They just wanted the item or needed it, and they have the right to lot on it. Some people just play this game with close friends and do not chat with others, or maybe they just don't feel like typing that day. You might find this "ridiculous" but that is your opinion, they can and will ignore you if they want to.

So it really is pointless to get angry at them or about this. Thinking the player is a troll just because they chose not to acknowledge a person they do not know and roll on a piece of gear that they have every right to roll on is just...well in your words ridiculous. Keep thinking everyone are trolls if you want to, but you are only ruining your own gaming experience by getting mad about this and those 2% who are trolls will just laugh that they are making you paranoid and ruining your enjoyment.

Also you completely misinterpreted my post, it wasn't about "people asking for everything" it was about how it makes no sense to assume that strangers would announce what they are taking to other strangers. Also....no where in my post did I say anything about you being entitled, not sure where you are getting this from. The MMO thing was a legitimate question, I was seriously wondering if you are new to online games, I guess I was wrong, but I was curious.

I actually try my best to help others in this game, if people ask nicely I pass if I do not need the item, but if I do need the item; well I have a right to try for it. So you are basically attacking someone who likely would have passed your item for you, but if I did need it and rolled without chatting to you that I was going to roll, I am a troll I guess? Do you see the problem here?

As a fellow gamer I am telling you what you want won't happen, unless the game enforces some new rule that you must respond to someone chatting to you, so there is no point in getting mad, just play the game and have fun in your own way if you lose a roll just go again, that's what everyone else does.

You are getting mad that complete strangers do not acknowledge you.
Yet when one does on a forum you accuse them of being a liking to see themselves type lol so I think I am done here if you still don't get it.

Time to put on my AF1 gear, GC i40+ weapon, and go in HM primals, and "kindly" ask for everyone to pass me loot :D

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Originally Posted by Nymeia

PEOPLE ARE COMPLETELY DISREGARDING THE 2ND POINT - SO, NOW IT'S THE FIRST.

There, I said it.

The community? Really isn't that great. Gaming communities? Never going to be great. I've been on MMOs 10 years.

*blah blah*

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I've been playing MMOs for a lot longer than you and you're wrong.

QED I suppose!

Overall, the community is fine. I've played Eve Online for ten years. This community is heavenly compared to some of the sheer horror I've encountered on Eve.

Every time this topic comes up I honestly just read it as "I want my item on the first run." Even if a system was put in place where people could only roll for upgrades, you still have to hope RNG smiles on you and that it drops. If it doesn't drop at all, what do you do? You probably run it again. Am I right? Why can't people just do that in cases where someone else rolled on it and won? Why do people have to come and make complaint posts about it? Just run the instance until you get the item you need.

Bad community = not getting the loot you want

Honestly there are so many other things that are much worse than this, it's not hard to get gear these days. If you really want to help that friend of yours out grab 7 people in your FC to help them run those hard mode primals until they get that weapon they want. Once they get to ilvl70 just start spamming ST for gear, sands, oils, UAT's and tomes. Honestly if you want to be helpful just buy them some gear off the MB.

Saying that people shouldn't lot on stuff if they have better gear is simply stupid. Why? Because it takes next to no time to get something better.

I spammed Thornmarch HM for over a week trying to get the Mogaxe. When it finally droped on my 20th+ run the healer wanted me to pass it for his Warrior because I had a Bravura already.

Worse was in LotA, when I was insulted the whole run by the other tank for lotting on the tank gear. Apparently I should pass it to the other tank because it's an upgrade to him, even though it would only take him a couple of hours to get the Myth needed for something better.

And people are back to the focus on loot...

Thank you for those who actually input on the other information other than just seeing loot and going "*Blahblah* loot! *blahblah*"

People also seem to believe that just because I'm a level 50 crafter, I can whip up anything. I can't, I'm not a good crafter, it's mostly there for glamour crafting, furniture and melding, not to mention it's not exactly an enjoyable task. Second, not every server's market is the same. What you may consider cheap could be quite a bit more pricey elsewhere. Third, as I said she wanted it in preparation for her next relic quests which were hot on the tail of her first, she doesn't want to be grinding higher content where more people are looking to gear up to get a temporary fix while she earns her relics.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Since 2.5 I've used over 350,000 GC seals. Sorry but I didn't get those by running fates and certainly don't plan on doing that in the future. If someone asks for a pass on a particular set of gear I'll consider it. And you better believe if I'm interested in a particular piece of gear for glamour I'll jump at getting it. One thing is for sure I'm not about to check the gear level of players in my party to make a decision about whether or not I'm going to roll on a particular set of gear.

Furthermore I'm not sure what type of free companies people belong too but in ours our crafters are quick to help new players by making gear for them not only for War classes but for Crafting classes as well.

Sadly the name calling started early on by calling people douche's and selfish. There is or was no need to get into name calling to have a discussion of this sort.

16 Bombard Cores for these.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7409/...94e503e2_o.jpg

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only 350k! should go get some lucis also! :) 11/11 lucis is 880k seals! I take everything i can get my hands on for seals!