Why Speed Pulls?

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I'll have to spam that same dungeon 10+ times to likely see the rng drop I need.

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We are all in the same boat. I am farming for these zodiacs too, I'm just as frustrated as you to not see them drop (probably not, tbh) and yet I don't feel an urge to pull everything at once unless I really need to. However you do realize that most pug healers out there don't even DPS at all?

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I meet the occasional special snowflake.

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Been meeting them more than the average player lately.

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DPS don't pull initial aggro on mobs. You are just going to get my healer killed and you are just being an ass

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Look, if they asked me if I wanted to speed run or pull more before, then fine, so I can choose my next action before it gets out of hand for me.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

We are all in the same boat. I am farming for these zodiacs too, I'm just as frustrated as you to not see them drop (probably not, tbh) and yet I don't feel an urge to pull everything at once unless I really need to. However you do realize that most pug healers out there don't even DPS at all?

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That's because most pug healers are bad / lazy. That's also why I go into the dungeons as a healer. I expect fast runs so I do my part to achieve them. If the party is going slow and have no desire to speed run after I inquire, I leave.

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That's because most pug healers are bad / lazy

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Most pugs are bad and lazy period. The problem still rests on the fact that I am upset at people taking decisions for me (IE pulling shit onto me). It's not like I have never speed ran before, it's not like I don't still do it when asked to or encouraged to and it's not like I won't start picking up the pace after I have judged the DPS to be in a hurry or have enough DPS / brains to perform. But just as much as I wouldn't impose my slow runs on those who asks, I would love if those people wouldn't assume I want and will speed run simply because I'm wielding a Nexus.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Most pugs are bad and lazy period. The problem still rests on the fact that I am upset at people taking decisions for me (IE pulling shit onto me). It's not like I have never speed ran before, it's not like I don't still do it when asked to or encouraged to and it's not like I won't start picking up the pace after I have judged the DPS to be in a hurry or have enough DPS / brains to perform. But just as much as I wouldn't impose my slow runs on those who asks, I would love if those people wouldn't assume I want and will speed run simply because I'm wielding a Nexus.

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That's fine. And it's your right to not speed run if you don't feel like it. Just like it's my right to leave a dungeon if they aren't. No real problem, just deal with what's happening or leave imho. The game is supposed to be fun. If people are playing in a way that's making the game less enjoyable for you, take yourself out of the situation.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

That's because most pug healers are bad / lazy.

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Nope, PuG healer do not bother because the healer cannot depend on the group to perform well enough that there is time to DPS. Too many bad tanks not using buffs, or DPS not dodging attacks.

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Just like it's my right to leave a dungeon if they aren't. No real problem, just deal with what's happening or leave imho.

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Oh, I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, leaving, in fact, I highly encourage it. I would rather have them leave on me, since I am not in a hurry and they are, they chose to willingly accept the wait time. The problem feels very real to me though. There isn't much else I can do but try to deal with what I am thrown with, I much prefer settling friendily than leaving, not because of my own time loss, but because the situation out of my control made me "waste their time", which is such a serious problem nowadays to waste time that they practically hold a grudge against you for not complying to their demands and then using your right to leave to get out of it all.

Here is something I don't get in a way. And I know my poor brain is wired differently.

Those who love speed runs, want to get as many RNG rolls in as possible. Ok, so a dungeon with a sped run finished in 10 minutes. Or less, yes I understand that. Normal pulls, 1-2 groups at a time only, the dungeon takes 15-20 minutes. Exactly how does leaving the dungeon, taking a 30 minute hit, re-queuing, going into the BACK of the line, getting another group you have no idea will speed run or not, get you that next RNG roll faster than just sticking with the original dungeon even if it took 20 minutes?

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Originally Posted by Mykll

Here is something I don't get in a way. And I know my poor brain is wired differently.

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Because trying to get that rng roll isn't the only thing we can do in game. You're acting as if for 30 minutes we can't log into the game. There's plenty of other stuff we can do in game during that period that doesn't involve duty finder. We're not really losing any time by ducking out and taking the 30 minute penalty. Especially healers and tanks which get almost instant ques after the 30 is up.

Yeah at my job they pay me the same if I review 10 charts or 100 a day.
Obviously I do 10 charts.

Lazybad is lazybad

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

We've been speedrunning dungeons since 1.0 because of the slot machine reward system. [large quantities of people who want reward] + [intermittent reward payout] = play that tends towards efficiency: we want to squeeze in as many rolls as we can in our limited playtime.

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It's only a problem if you make it so by not pacing yourself. Everything in the game is designed to take a certain amount of time: if you want to speed the process up by incessantly farming content you can, of course, but it's souring your gaming experience too. I don't look at the time when I'm ejoying myself. If it didn't drop today, it'll drop tomorrow, I took my time for my relic, even breaks of weeks during Atma and Novus, yet I am almost done with collecting lights (last stage) and my performance hasn't suffered since my weapon is still good enough for the content I am doing (and if it came to the point where it wasn't, I have a faster, stronger alternative in Shiva's staff).

It's like how people are obsessed with capping tomes when I am pretty sure you don't even have to run an expert roulette every day to cap them, let alone all of them every day. But some people want 450 tomes in one day and it's their right! If the devs didn't want you to do that they'd have made it impossible, but if you're pacing yourself and taking your time I can assure you that you can get everything done in a reasonable time without worrying about anything but have fun from when you log in to when you log out. I'm not trying to be condescending but that honestly has never been a problem for me. Whenever I was starting to get frustrated about atma drops or how many more times I would have to run something for that things I wanted I would just stop it altogether before it became unenjoyable, did something else and came back to it when the feeling was gone.

Blame the zodiac quest for making i110+ players runs i60 dungeons over and over again. Seeing a full i110 group with 2 blms and the tank pulling one group at a time can be a little brainnumbing. I don't mind tanks going at their own pace but the nature of the quest will bring some hostility in others.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

That's because most pug healers are bad / lazy. That's also why I go into the dungeons as a healer. I expect fast runs so I do my part to achieve them. If the party is going slow and have no desire to speed run after I inquire, I leave.

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Actually, because of that I choose to do by Zodiac as a BLM instead. Longer queue times probably but it isn't that bad (5-10 mins average?).

You can enter as a WHM but if you get 2 melees you are still a goner. But as long as I am a BLM, I can ensure that the run ends faster than any other options. If the tank is going to pull pack by pack then as a WHM you can't possibly have the MP to holy spam them all, but as a BLM I can Flare them all. Pug tanks are more likely to pull more packs with a BLM than without.

Why speed-pulling? Because otherwise its really really boring.
I would actually welcome something like trash from WoW BC heroics, where if you did not had CC in the group tank would just drop dead with just 1 group of mobs wailing on him.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

Why speed-pulling? Because otherwise its really really boring.

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Inversely, I feel the speed pulling is boring. At least when it boils down to pull the first third of enemies, then spam Flash/Overpower/enmity tools, Cure/Holy, or any of the DPS aoes ad nauseum. I mean, with all the (usually more) damaging skills/spells I may have, why limit myself down to maybe 2 or 3 purely for the sake of "speed"?

Personally, I recommend going at a decent pace that you can handle. If that's fast, good. If not, good. Don't be put in a situation where someone else is making your performance suffer for speed or efficiency.

Also, don't respond to this post, please. This is a VERY old and beaten dead horse for me, and I've just about heard it all by now. Just simply putting my 2 cents in.

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Blame the zodiac quest for making i110+ players runs i60 dungeons over and over again.

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No, I won't. Not sure where this obsession of placing blame comes from. But no, I won't blame a feature that isn't mandatory. If we are getting them for increasing our chances at beating something harder, there are alternatives and most of all you don't need the relic to even beat the harder content in the first place. If it's for any other reason than gearing up for increasing chances of beating something harder, then it's obviously for the fun of doing it or obtaining it, for vanity and what not, in which case, speeding through the relic steps becomes unnecessary and unjustifiable of toxic behavior. I don't personally run the dungeons over and over in hopes of getting my Zodiac items, I run them once as I see fit and then I take a break because I will get bored of running it if I run it too frequently and I don't want that to happen.

I like Dungeons. I even love doing stupid things in them like DPS Tanking when I'm there for the lols. But I've got a Animus Relic to get to Zodiak level and 8 more combat classes to get to 50 AND my DoL/DoH classes to max out all before expansion. That's alot of tomes, items, gil, and EXP to grind in JUST 6-8 months. So forgive me if I wanna finish my 100 millionth speed run of Bryflox Longstom HM asap.

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So forgive me if I wanna finish my 100 millionth speed run of Bryflox Longstom HM asap.

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Nobody is forcing you, you are forcing yourself. Makes me wonder why you even are here reading the forum when you could be farming tomes and shit in just 8 months.

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Originally Posted by Gralna

Don't, if you don't want to speed run, as a tank you don't have to. You are the one that sets the pace of the duty, if rest of party doesn't like it, they can leave. If anyone tries to pull extra packs into your pull, let them tank it. This is a game, play it the way YOU enjoy it, and don't let others dictate how you play.

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well the party can also choose to kick you for being uncooperative

maybe it is just an anecdote but any problem i have ever had in a dungeon that was so bad that i wanted to criticize another player was of my own design. but ffxiv is an mmo, running dungeons is not hard. don't be afraid of failure to try something different. if there is something you know you cannot do but the group does wants to do it anyway, just be humble and say you are not good enough at your job to do what they are asking - that things will go better if they take them a little bit slower.

work with, not against each other

After spamming the same dungeons for weeks no one wants to take it slow.

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Originally Posted by Wizhard

Why speed-pulling? Because otherwise its really really boring.
I would actually welcome something like trash from WoW BC heroics, where if you did not had CC in the group tank would just drop dead with just 1 group of mobs wailing on him.

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Lets see.
Mass pulls:

Tank Spamming Flash/Overpower
Heal Spamming Cure/CureII
Dps spamming 1-2 kind of AOE

Medium/Small Pulls

Tank being able to use proper Rotations and Aoe
Heal being able to use SS/Adlo as dmg prevention while DPS-ing
Dps using proper Rotations and/or Aoe

EXPLAIN TO ME, how the heck Mass pulls are THE way to go if you do not want a boring playstyle?

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Originally Posted by Sareal

No your right, it is not useless shortly after release, it is useless before it is even released, it's a game, what is so useful and productive about playing it other than having fun?

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Ah, playing the 'It's just a game' card. Then what are you even doing here?

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Too bad that's pretty much all you do in MMOs, grinding stuff and killing trash mobs and bosses. That's what you do even in coil. Why do you run dungeons to get poetics? To get geared and then do what? Run coil? If not, then explain.

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Yes, to run coil. Did you really just say running coil is comparable to facerolling trash in dungeons? I don't even...

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Originally Posted by Sareal

No, I won't. Not sure where this obsession of placing blame comes from. But no, I won't blame a feature that isn't mandatory.

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You don't get it, right? It's not about placing blame, it's about you asking a question (why do players want to speedrun all day?) and people in this thread giving you the answer. You obviously don't like that answer, so you're not going to accept it despite it being the truth. Waat? ^^

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Ah, playing the 'It's just a game' card. Then what are you even doing here?

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I said it's a game for having fun, I didn't say "it's just a game"

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Yes, to run coil. Did you really just say running coil is comparable to facerolling trash in dungeons? I don't even...

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It's part of the game, so why not? What is so different? Killing trash in coil is just the same as killing trash in dungeons. What's your point? Clarify

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You obviously don't like that answer, so you're not going to accept it despite it being the truth. Waat? ^^

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He did say "Blame...." So yes, they are trying to pin blame on something, I didn't. And what do you mean I'm not going to accept it despite what being the truth? I have been having conversations with people who were nice enough to come have conversations without being rude. It's probably what you believe but that doesn't make it "THE" truth.

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(why do players want to speedrun all day?)

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That's what I asked?

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

EXPLAIN TO ME, how the heck Mass pulls are THE way to go if you do not want a boring playstyle?

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Yup yup and yup. Wish I could give you a thousand likes.

I'll add on top of that tanks that think that because they overgear they don't need to use any CDs and can eat all damage.
Or even more fun... tanks that will mass pull... then drop their tank stance... Or that go and mass pull with 2 melee.

But the one I hate the most - You'll grab one mob... then run to the next pack and again only grab one mob... and repeat until you have all you can find.

By the time you stop you are dead. I can't place a single heal on you or e4e or stoneskin because you haven't grabbed the packs properly. And 99% of the time
you won't use a single CD.

And then there's the usual - healer is at half MP... rushing off and grabbing the next pack... while regen is still ticking on you...

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Originally Posted by Delorean

don't be afraid of failure to try something different.

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While I love your attitude and this in general - I've seen too many players that will chew out whoever they perceive as failing.

Other than the usual insults I've heard personally a couple that stuck in my head: "s*** in your eyes" "cardboard healer"

And then there's the usual one wipe on a mass pull: "good luck"(if they say anything) quits

Solution is very simple to avoid speed pulling dngs, ask nicely at the start if you are in DF. Even better form your own pre-made group, you can run a dmg anyway you like.

As much I dislike speed runs, this thread is simply turning into, it's "all about me, me, me!" whining and not about finding a solution.

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Originally Posted by Lancelot_Kahn

As much I dislike speed runs, this thread is simply turning into, it's "all about me, me, me!" whining and not about finding a solution.

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Agreed and the only real solution is communication on all sides of the coin. Tanks with their groups. I was in Tam Tara last night and first started off in at the beginning to test the group. The healer was reluctant to Holy on moderate sized pulls so I decided to switch into my dps gear after the first boss and then danced between SwO and ShO. From there I proceeded to dance all the way to the last boss. The healer was amazing but it didn't serve any benefit to do incredibly large pulls when he wouldn't Holy and there was no BLM in the group. During the dungeon I said "Let me know if you want me to change back into Fending Gear". The healer said "you're not in fending gear?". Then at the last boss he goes "Have you been in SwO the whole dungeon?"

So morale of the story. Communication lead to a faster/smoother run. Wasn't huge pulls but were large enough everyone could manage.

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this thread is simply turning into, it's "all about me, me, me!" whining and not about finding a solution.

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That's because it never was about finding a solution in the first place. It's turning into whatever you perceive it turning into. People can whine if they want, whining is not always a bad thing per say. Your solution is just the opposite of "if you want to speed run just find a pre-made group" which I agree but both sides of the coin don't always want to go through the trouble of making a pre-made group, we don't always have friends at disposition either. The point of the thread is more about making a conscious choice between going along with whatever you are asked or told to do or leaving them be by quitting and accepting the consequences. People are giving their opinions from their side of the coins, and it is their right, just as much as it is our right to not always agree with their opinion, even if completely selfish and unconsidering.

Some Speed runners remind me of people in cars trying to get home after a day at work.
They drop all common sense, get mad over nothing and just HAVE to rush.

I hate rush hour.

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Originally Posted by Rasylia

Lets see.
Mass pulls:

Tank Spamming Flash/Overpower
Heal Spamming Cure/CureII
Dps spamming 1-2 kind of AOE

Medium/Small Pulls

Tank being able to use proper Rotations and Aoe
Heal being able to use SS/Adlo as dmg prevention while DPS-ing
Dps using proper Rotations and/or Aoe

EXPLAIN TO ME, how the heck Mass pulls are THE way to go if you do not want a boring playstyle?

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if youre just spamming flash or overpower, ouch. when I pull huge pulls, im popping beserk, bloodbath, infuriate, point is im doing 300-400 a hit each mob with Overpower. That's how a tank should contribute.

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They drop all common sense, get mad over nothing and just HAVE to rush.

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Don't you dare tell these people that you think differently. "Everyone does it, so why not?" It's kinda weird that a lot of people can perceive a simple question as a huge threat towards their comfort of being. Seriously what is so threatening about asking others about their opinions on the matter. Just because I'm asking a question means I cannot disagree with their point of view? If I had to agree with everything everyone sent my way then what is the point of even asking in the first place? I can keep the conversation going as long as there seems to be interests.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

It's part of the game, so why not? What is so different? Killing trash in coil is just the same as killing trash in dungeons. What's your point? Clarify

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Trash pulls in Coil? most of the time they're suicide pulls bc what good is wasting time killing trash? So again speed runs come out on top bc you want those extra minutes for boss attempts, not useless take your time trash mobs. That's a bad comparison for your argument.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

Don't you dare tell these people that you think differently.

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See, getting angry over nothing.

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That's a bad comparison for your argument.

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Because people decide to suicide pull coil does not make it any different. What argument? I'm stating my opinion, I'm saying pulling a trash and killing a trash is the same in any dungeons. The way people decide to handle it has nothing to do with it being different. Just as much as I think killing bosses in coil is the same as killing bosses in dungeons. The point is not really comparing both dungeons but looking at the game as a whole. So basically you are of the opinion that going in coil and wiping because of the same individual when you know you are capable of executing it correctly is different than doing bosses in other dungeons?

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See, getting angry over nothing.

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Just so we are clear, I'm not expressing my anger at you, I'm just saying I have been the dummy of expressed anger just by telling them I don't agree.

There is a difference between killing bosses in Coil compared to dungeons im sorry to say. I don't think I've had a problem once in any dungeon in this game where going in freshly blind my party couldn't down the boss the first or second try. Going into Coil even knowing all the mechanics for each boss, you're still going to wipe a bunch before you get it down on farm. they're not comparable. With that said, speed pulls on trash in Coil are necessary to eek out those extra minutes to utilize for boss attempt. Outside of my daily roulettes, I don't run dungeons, so yes, I want my Poetry as quick as possible so I can get on to more important (i.e Hunts, Pvp, Coil) content, so speed runs are the way to go.

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There is a difference between killing bosses in Coil compared to dungeons im sorry to say

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Well I'm sorry to say that I don't see the difference. To me it's just the same thing.

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Going into Coil even knowing all the mechanics for each boss, you're still going to wipe a bunch before you get it down on farm. they're not comparable

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Really? Not comparable at all? Okay so, I go into coil, knowing all the mechanics, I can execute the dungeon properly without mistake, but then I depend on my entire team. So this one guy isn't as used to the mechanics as everyone else and we all wipe because we don't meet the DPS requirement...that sounds oddly familiar as anything else in this game, even if the other stuff is easier. What you are saying is the difficulty of execution is different, but once mastered, it really isn't. Press buttons, dodge abilities, execute mechanics. MMO in a nutshell.

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Originally Posted by Deculture

Nobody is forcing you to speed run, just don't be surprised if you end up getting kicked if the majority of the group wants to play their way and you don't comply.

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Good luck on finding that replacement tank lol...

If the tank or healer disagrees to a speed run, it should not happen end of story. DPS wanna pull more mobs to a tank? Let. Them. Die. If they don't like it? They can leave... simple.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

No, I won't. Not sure where this obsession of placing blame comes from. But no, I won't blame a feature that isn't mandatory. If we are getting them for increasing our chances at beating something harder, there are alternatives and most of all you don't need the relic to even beat the harder content in the first place. If it's for any other reason than gearing up for increasing chances of beating something harder, then it's obviously for the fun of doing it or obtaining it, for vanity and what not, in which case, speeding through the relic steps becomes unnecessary and unjustifiable of toxic behavior.

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If you have elected to do Zodiac, it's not fair to dismiss the significance of content at the expense of everybody else with whom you do it. There are many things in the game you don't "have" to do:

You don't HAVE to score positional bonuses with MNK.
You don't HAVE to cast anything more advanced than cure on WHM.
You don't HAVE to wear gear any higher than the minimum ilvl.

You can do less than optimal and still make it through the dungeon, Zodiac or not. But why would you aim low? Why would you take a principled stand against doing more when you and your party are capable of more? If we all do our best, then it's a better experience for everybody.

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But why would you aim low? Why would you take a principled stand against doing more when you and your party are capable of more? If we all do our best, then it's a better experience for everybody.

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Because I don't always feel like it. I agree with what you say to some extent, but then, why the toxic behavior over it? Doing our best means speed pulling the entire trash floor even thought the tank did not express wanting to do it? There is probably a difference in opinion on what "doing our best" could be in this case. So basically, since the voice of majority is more "relevant" then I should speed run and if I don't, it means being detrimental to the experience of others? That's kinda one-sided. Like I said, I don't go in a dungeon and force people in slow runs. I do and still speed run when the group is being nice about it. But when they are being ass, it's not better than me going in and being an ass about not wanting to mega speed run.

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People make comments about "dungeon" content and in comes the elitists that make it all about "raid" content...

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That's ok. They are probably just missing the point and somehow feeling like the comfort of doing it is threatened, just giving a theory cause I have no idea really. They are using the dungeon part as a stepping stone and debating that speed running should be the way to go because "THEY" find it boring. That's fine, but then, the whole topic is about toxic behavior revolving around that stepping stone. Because you find it boring not to speed run like you want it you feel you should fight all your might against those who disagrees? Like it's been said, the opposite isn't better, but then it's not about the opposite, it's about weither or not complying with those who act tough in the face of change.

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Originally Posted by Sareal

That's ok. They are probably just missing the point and somehow feeling like the comfort of doing it is threatened, just giving a theory cause I have no idea really. They are using the dungeon part as a stepping stone and debating that speed running should be the way to go because "THEY" find it boring. That's fine, but then, the whole topic is about toxic behavior revolving around that stepping stone. Because you find it boring not to speed run like you want it you feel you should fight all your might against those who disagrees? Like it's been said, the opposite isn't better, but then it's not about the opposite, it's about weither or not complying with those who act tough in the face of change.

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You do realize you are quoting my signature and not a comment made in this thread, right?

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You do realize you are quoting my signature and not a comment made in this thread, right?

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I do, but I think it applies to here too, which is why I felt like quoting it and adding my 2 cents about it. People just don't seem to understand what I am asking, and that I am not looking for a solution, just opinions.

Edit: Guys if I was looking for a solution I would have stopped at the first response because it was a solution in itself. However I don't completely agree with it and anyway I already stated my own solutions for dealing with the problem. I'm simply trying to get what is on your mind on paper, I wouldn't follow up with questions and comparing your opinions with mine if I didn't. Take this as you will.