Why no further Echo on T9?

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Originally Posted by Craiger

I don't have a problem beating the T9 mechanics (not saying I'm a pro either), but there are 7 other players in a group, and all of them have to know what they're doing.

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I love this quote. I hear it all the time.
Nobody is ever the problem. You can go into an instance 50 times and never clear it, but you're the one good enough to clear it.
If you go into a DF and fail miserably, chances are good, all 8 people think they're the one good enough to clear it. They just need to find the right party.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Well, T10 is easier than T9 according to the people I've talked to...


What does the Relic have to do with anything? I'm not just after a better weapon, I want to experience Final Coil, and maybe get some gear there. I would want to beat T9 whether I got the 125 Relic or not, which I don't have, cause I recently switched to BLM, which I only had Zenith on...

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Why are you all still assuming I have a problem with DPS ? I never said that... I'm doing fine on that department, but it's hard to find party members that do it too.


I would probably not have as big problems with T10.

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Hang on, you recently switched to BLM, and are using a Zenith weapon, and are complainign that T9 needs more echo because you feel you have the DPS for T10?

I think we've been trolled.

If you can't beat Turn 9 with a 10% boost you're gonna have a bad time in Final Coil.

Next patch the echo is increased to a level where upon entering the boss arena the boss proceeds to pelt the players with so much loot that their inventory starts to fill up until they go away.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

I love this quote. I hear it all the time.
Nobody is ever the problem. You can go into an instance 50 times and never clear it, but you're the one good enough to clear it.
If you go into a DF and fail miserably, chances are good, all 8 people think they're the one good enough to clear it. They just need to find the right party.








Hang on, you recently switched to BLM, and are using a Zenith weapon, and are complainign that T9 needs more echo because you feel you have the DPS for T10?

I think we've been trolled.

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And if they think they have a chance in hell in t10 with an i90 weapon, well there is no hope for them.

I find t10 easy.. but helping people get wins on t9 who aren't already on farm status -is- hard even with -good- players. I do know people who are good enough to beat t9 and stuck and no matter how hard I try to get them help no one wants to because even those on farm status loathe the idea of trying anyone without multiple clears. The -only- people im finding willing enough besides me (and even im getting tired) is people who will charge these people 1 mil each and not everyone I know has that kind of money. These people are skilled good players who are stuck and it's quite unfortunate. Thing is unless more people are willing to give that extra hand they aren't gonna beat it without a static or at least joining a 7/8 static for the week. So I do agree with the OP because it is frustrating to both my friends I know can beat this and to myself because I was the lucky one who managed to have a 7/8 static give me a chance and go about 1 shoting it the first try.

Besides that we all know statics get gaps all the time these days. no one sticks around as much. breaks happen. Do you want that last spot filled by someone who tried and tried and finally won at t9 and started farming weapons to the point it was a cake walk in your pt because some pt gave them a chance and they proved themselves, or do you want the guy who paid some FC 7 mil to get carried picking his nose in your t10+ practice/clears. Id like to see more committed dedicated people I would be able to play with.

Right.. even if they get a t9 clear without a static anyone doing t10+ expects you to already be cleared and winning. so are these players supposed to forever buy wins to clear content until its nerfed horribly or can we give people a chance?

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Originally Posted by Sparktacus

And if they think they have a chance in hell in t10 with an i90 weapon, well there is no hope for them.

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Ok you guys cant really be that dumb can you, its obvious he meant he doesnt have a i125 relic b/c he just switched to BLM that has only Zenith and hasnt had time to do all the relic steps, pretty sure he has the i110 weapon to go into T9 w/ seeing how the ilvl req is 105 >.>

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

The dps required for 3 meteors is around 2000. But it's harder to hit that mark in T9 due to the downtime between jumps, but there was a 10% echo to help with that.

the dps required to beat Turn 10 without hitting the soft enrage is a little over 2000.

You are the one who's wrong.

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Funny then how my group has T10 on farm but we usually have 4 meteors on T9 (admittedly it's most of the time only by a percentage or less). Practical evidence proves that your statement is wrong.

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Nailed it.

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Kind of why while people found it negative that this 'elite' group of players took 18 hours to beat Pandemonium Warden in XI (since it wasn't done properly initially), it shows how extremely of a different playerbase gamers are nowadays when it comes to MMOs and why they want their fast food/microwave style MMORPGs. Fail once then bail? I'd hate to see they'd have reacted in a real MMORPG where failing was bound to happen even if you had it down to a science simply because bosses were actually out to kill you, not throw a script at you.

Obligatory "I think I'm better than you" thread

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Originally Posted by Kyri

Right.. even if they get a t9 clear without a static anyone doing t10+ expects you to already be cleared and winning. so are these players supposed to forever buy wins to clear content until its nerfed horribly or can we give people a chance?

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You just cracked the code of FFXIV's endgame raiding scene.

Doesn't matter how good you are. Don't have a static? Buy your way up until one accepts you, or fish pugs for months until you get the 1% droprate on 'eight other players who haven't cleared but know the fight'.

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Originally Posted by Kyri

Right.. even if they get a t9 clear without a static anyone doing t10+ expects you to already be cleared and winning. so are these players supposed to forever buy wins to clear content until its nerfed horribly or can we give people a chance?

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You either find/create a static or you deal with the drama/fallout that comes with not having one - this is simply how this game works at this point for most players. Almost every fight in this game (That matters at least) can be lost because of one person not knowing "the dance", it's not reasonable to expect people to dedicate the uncertain amount of time that comes with bringing in inexperienced people to a run. People search for the sure thing, there's nothing fundamentally "wrong" about exclusionary practices in party finder - these are people who are trying to optimize the time of people who are in the group and so long as people agree to those conditions when they join, it's fine. People should not get the benefit of plugging-in to a run with 7/8 people who know the fight, because almost nobody who initially did T9 (Or any fight) has gone into a fight with a group like that - even statics have to start at "0 experience".

Bottom line - If you care enough about endgame then make a static (Or your own party finders even) to learn and progress through the fight at your own rate, otherwise deal with inevitable exclusion for not knowing the fights. That's just the way the community has chosen to "shape" end-game formation.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

Funny then how my group has T10 on farm but we usually have 4 meteors on T9 (admittedly it's most of the time only by a percentage or less). Practical evidence proves that your statement is wrong.

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Then your dps (most likely melee) have an easier time in 10 than 9. Statement still stands. The required dps is nearly the same. There are "farm" parties for t9 with 5 dps that can't do 3 meteors. *shudders* Groups like that don't stand a chance in helk of beating fcob's dps checks.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

There are "farm" parties for t9 with 5 dps that can't do 3 meteors. *shudders* Groups like that don't stand a chance in helk of beating fcob's dps checks.

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I have to wonder if something like this is because of party makeup though. As I have not done T9 yet, I cannot give any first hand insight on it. However, a group made up of mostly casters might have trouble with this if there is a fair amount of moving. I suppose the dps loss from that may cause the situation you described.

When I beat both T5 and T9 I felt accomplished, but I also felt lucky. I knew that it would not have been possible had I not found the seven other competent and patient players that also needed their clears. Before then a friend of mine who had already cleared T9 was trying to convince some players in his T9 farm Linkshell to help me and my friend out with one clear, but they really, really don't like running T9 with people who don't already have it on farm. Of course there are some helpful FCs that will help you meet them halfway, you just have to find them.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

There are "farm" parties for t9 with 5 dps that can't do 3 meteors. *shudders* Groups like that don't stand a chance in helk of beating fcob's dps checks.

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Ehhh there are some pretty bad players in the T9 farms that I've been in. DPS that are doing 100 less than me when I play bard, healers who are at 2k MP by the start of phase two. You really don't have to be a hotshot to farm T9, just don't get anyone else killed and you're golden pretty much.

As most have said already while T10 is mechanically simpler, it's a lot more punishing overall. Though I feel once we start overgearing the content by 10-20 item levels T10 will lose most of what made it hard, which was its tight gear/skill check.

A lot of big headed kids and pro wannabes around this thread.... They also forget when they started learning T5 + T9...... there are alot skilful people out there without static so dont underestimate their gameplay.

imo the dps checks on t9 shouldnt be a problem providing you have the gear in the last few patches.

The main thing is the mechanics, e.g I know lots of grps will wipe to DBs because you cant just run to a ditch. You cant just up the echo bonus because in this fight it wont make a difference.

well op you got your echo
now surely you will clear t9
...
hahahahahaahahaha

I just recently downed T8 this last week. T5 was a pain though and I had problems finding a group that could do it. The echo was nice to be able to handle the dps checks and give the party a nice boost, but the dodging and positioning mechanics are there for a reason. These aren't meant to be easy fights, this is end game material. I haven't attempted T9 yet, but we are already getting a little spoiled with echo, if they take away all the mechanics of the fight there won't be anything left and it will just be an empty, fluff-filled win. I want some stuff to say a little difficult so I can use that as a bridge to know I'm capable of the next available raid content. Titan has been the same way for awhile now too. There may be an echo to help you, but you still need to be able to dodge, dodgy connections or not. Though I bet at some point they'll probably make the mechanics of T9 a little more forgiving to push people onwards in content, like they've been doing :(

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Originally Posted by JayCommon

Nailed it. If the players you have found are good, but impatient then you aren't going to get a clear. With PF's its a bit easier to get around that, but I think that's a big reason why a DF is highly improbable. You can watch all the videos in the world, but without any practice you aren't going to clear t9. And when you are progressing, learning the final phase of t9 takes a long time because people get burnt out doing the first 7-8 minutes of the fight flawlessly, but then (for instance) missing the DPS needed to push Nael to final phase and having a Drake pop right before she goes into Favor. That destroys morale and makes progression seem like it's never going to happen with a pick-up.

SE put these turns in DF to make it more accessible, but it isn't. I really think SE should implement a system (just for DF coil turns) where the group can vote to extend the time. You are not going to learn t9 in 90 minutes. The group needs cohesion and a bit of time to learn each other's tendencies. When the duty boots you shortly after you are able to reach that level of symmetry, it is going to deter any person who is truly serious about completion away from ever trying for it in DF.

If you find 7 other people in the DF who understand mechanics up to a certain point, or are quick learners and you seem to be progressing, you should just be able to say:

/p Hey guys, we seem to be progressing well, but the time is at 10mins. Do y'all want to {Vote Extend} to refresh the timer and continue working on this? I think we can do it!!

I bet a lot more people with the patience you search for would attempt the fight via DF more often.

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The obvious solution to this isn't a Vote Extend, but Cross-Server Friends Lists like a certain other MMO.

Cross-Server Friends List would also go millions of miles towards relieving the current issue of all players cramming themselves onto Gilgamesh and Balmung just to find people to play with. If you Friends can be on any server, there's no reason to overcrowd 1 or 2 servers.

The fact of the matter is that raids are not for everyone. There are hard-core and casual players. You can take offense to a form of labeling but it's just what it is. If you not willing to put in a certain level of effort and make some sacrifices (even if it is periodically meeting up with 7 other people), you would be considered casual. If that's the case, you'll have to wait until they ease the raids. Right now raids are made to test team work and efficiency. It difficult to do with a rotating cast of characters. That is why after they become repeatable, the mechanics are also made easier. Now you complain about feeling as though you're being forced into a static. Have no fear. In the expansion, they will be releasing normal mode raid with should satisfy your itch. If you would Like to satisfy the hard mode itch, I would at that point recommend a static.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

The dps required for 3 meteors is around 2000. But it's harder to hit that mark in T9 due to the downtime between jumps, but there was a 10% echo to help with that.

the dps required to beat Turn 10 without hitting the soft enrage is a little over 2000.

You are the one who's wrong.

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It's around 2050 to kill it with a couple of seconds before enrage. However Meteor on 4 adds (around 65-80k damage depending on your party's weapons) contributes a hefty chunk to the party's overall dps.

Also bear in mind that most people solo tank T9. Nothing in final coil can be solo tanked.

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

T5 a gate ? With potential i120 char in game right now......

T5 is gated behind by players who lack the commitment or desire to raid in further coils at this point.

I pug T5 daily on Tonberry and get a 100 Sol message everytime.....*one-two shot it all the time

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you forget lag and internet connection related issues

No amount of Echo is going to change the fact that two ball- er, meteors touching will instantly kill you, getting touched by Heavensfall will instantly kill you, being too far from Heavensfall will kill you, being hit by bad stuff during Heavensfall will instantly kill you, standing in a supernova will probably eventually kill you, and putting lightning/fire inappropriately on a party will kill everyone, and divebombs....well, those are divebombs.

T9 probably won't see mechanical nerfs for a while, given its sacred status as a 'final encounter' in Second Coil.

t9 is just mechanics. Get them sorted and you're safe home. Anyone doing correct rotations will be fine for it.

In fact the inflated ilvl and echo cushions dps a bit too much. T10 is a reality check , since u do it in recommended ilvl and w/o echo.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

It's around 2050 to kill it with a couple of seconds before enrage. However Meteor on 4 adds (around 65-80k damage depending on your party's weapons) contributes a hefty chunk to the party's overall dps.

Also bear in mind that most people solo tank T9. Nothing in final coil can be solo tanked.

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That's why I said 3 meteors with 4 dps.