Nin TP Increase: Too Much?

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Originally Posted by DakenBrunel

Obviously it synergies with itself, DRG/DRG and NIN/NIN do that too. Thats not the synergy I was talking about. Synergy with Healers specifically SCH. Traited Mantra + Fairy buff is an ungodly succor shield.

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How exactly does DRG synergize with itself?

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Originally Posted by DakenBrunel

Obviously it synergies with itself, DRG/DRG and NIN/NIN do that too.

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Which is why I didn't think to mention it in my response to you.

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Originally Posted by DakenBrunel

Thats not the synergy I was talking about. Synergy with Healers specifically SCH. Traited Mantra + Fairy buff is an ungodly succor shield.

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Awesome.


Anyway... Oh, yeah, TP consumption, it's pretty balanced now.

drg/drg has basically no synergy, and nin/nin doesn't offer synergy specific to the class, just raid wide dps increase (and that you probably won't have a brd, a caster, or a str buff)

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

Just look at typical boss moves which are commonly found throughout each of the final turns of each Coul like Aetheric Profusion (Twintania), Megaflare (Nael) and Gigaflare (Bahamut Prime). Those are VIT+DEF checks that can be survived with lesser gear when bringing a monk.

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Hate to nitpick, but you won't have DK up for Aetheric Profusion or Megaflare. The bosses are invulnerable for a good period of time prior to those attacks hitting so they are just flat gear checks. Now your Gigaflare example is valid.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

Hate to nitpick, but you won't have DK up for Aetheric Profusion or Megaflare. The bosses are invulnerable for a good period of time prior to those attacks hitting so they are just flat gear checks. Now your Gigaflare example is valid.

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Yeah, my bad. Was just thinking of some massive group wide AoE damage that doesn't kill the group afterwards by means of "everything else going on".

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

Hate to nitpick, but you won't have DK up for Aetheric Profusion or Megaflare. The bosses are invulnerable for a good period of time prior to those attacks hitting so they are just flat gear checks. Now your Gigaflare example is valid.

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Thats why Dragon Kick wasn't always seen as super utility, first and second coil it was mostly just a Blunt resist debuff but in the new coils it's also a great utility skill with 100% uptime getting groups through gear checks they wouldn't survive otherwise,

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Thats why Dragon Kick wasn't always seen as super utility, first and second coil it was mostly just a Blunt resist debuff but in the new coils it's also a great utility skill with 100% uptime getting groups through gear checks they wouldn't survive otherwise,

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Absolutely correct. No one thought twice about bringing a Monk for their utility in first and second coil because DK was really just for Monk and brought a monk for raw damage. You could make an argument for Mantra, but it's wasn't really any kind of fight changer. Final Coil does turn that around in that DK is beneficial for the group finally so it helps the outlook on Monk utility as a whole by a decent degree.

Sorry, Ricdeau, we're too busy picking apart pieces of my posts to care about general points or the thread's topic ;P Try back later.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Sorry, Ricdeau, we're too busy picking apart pieces of my posts to care about general points or the thread's topic ;P Try back later.

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With all the talk of buffs and nerfs I generally try to stay out of these conversations directly. I only play Monk as I always have so it didn't apply to me directly, but I have to keep up for the sake of my raid. I think the Dragoon changes were very nice and needed, but I'm not sure if there was enough time to really examine the state of Ninja before their changes. I like where all three melee sit and I feel that the balance between them now is better than what you'll find in most MMOs for like classes. So I'm going to back out of the conversation again until I see some base misinformation (not a stab at Vodormir since he's made some valid arguments in various threads, he just happened to have some incorrect info here).

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Awesome.


Anyway... Oh, yeah, TP consumption, it's pretty balanced now.

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I merely provided you with the synergy you thought monk didn't have.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

I think the Dragoon changes were very nice and needed, but I'm not sure if there was enough time to really examine the state of Ninja before their changes. I like where all three melee sit and I feel that the balance between them now is better than what you'll find in most MMOs for like classes.

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I completely agree and that was actually the point of my first post in this thread before it descended lol I play them all so, unfortunately, I feel I have to keep an eye on all these threads. Personally, the NIN changes were of extremely low impact so it hasn't bothered me. I do feel the TP increase was justified, as before I could go for a little over 5 minutes without issue.

The last thing I wan't to see is people calling for more nerfs though. MNK may be in a valuable place right now but that could very easily shift in the expansion and we don't need to yell at the devs then to buff them back up. The balance is good, better than most games, as Ricdaeu said, let's be happy about that much.

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Originally Posted by Aiurily

the numbers are all napkin math tier/estimates, but i don't think they're very far from reality. you can shift the numbers up and down to your liking, but i still think the result would be favor paeon, or be very close, as long as they're reasonable and realistic.

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It's really difficult to go by these numbers because we don't know roughly how long said NIN is low on TP. But for now I'll just say 1 min as that's roughly a full bar of MP that could be used for Paeon or Foe's. Realistically I think most BRDs would do 1/2 bar of MP for Paeon.

You get 60 TP ticks every 3s and your GCD is roughly 2s. So even if you do let your TP run to 0 without taking measures against that ahead of time you'd be at roughly 21% less weaponskills damage according to your numbers. 79% of your total. That would put you at 435. A loss of 115 DPS during that time. So 86 (BRD) + 75 (BLM) = 161. 161 > 115 (NIN). That's +46 for Foe's. Factor in the small DPS gain NIN gets from Foe's with magic attacks and it's certainly over +50 for Foe's. If you want to be very very generous and say that BRD loses 10% DPS instead because of the extra TP from Paeon it is still +3 for Foe's not including NIN magic attacks.

And yes, this is ignoring a few things that could balance things out a bit. Like the potential for slight tank or healer DPS increases. Seems like a good time to touch on what I mean by managing TP as well. So for instance, as a BRD I have IR, RS, BFB, HE, Bar, and dex pot. When I get lower on TP I hold back Heavy Shots and keep my dots and Straight Shot up and wait for my buffs to come off CD. When buffs come off CD I am able to pop them immediately and go full throttle while they're up. It's far less of a DPS loss than just going full throttle til you hit rock bottom and wondering what to do with yourself. I plan things out to hit 0 TP or close to it as the fight ends. Do the same on NIN and that supposed 115 DPS loss for this time where Foe's is used instead of Paeon is reduced by quite a bit. That gives even more of a + to Foe's.

Anyway, I'm all for ending this as it's a bit tiring, and I'm sure both strats are perfectly viable. Especially now that we aren't doing FCoB at i110 on week 1 anymore.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Thats why Dragon Kick wasn't always seen as super utility, first and second coil it was mostly just a Blunt resist debuff but in the new coils it's also a great utility skill with 100% uptime getting groups through gear checks they wouldn't survive otherwise,

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One thing I would have to argue is that that is a flaw in the design of the fight then.

Bare with me a moment and I'll explain my thoughts here.

For now, MNK has amazing utility with DK. It has great synergy with the current content, I don't doubt that. What would happen if we were to nerf that though? All right, it might make them more balanced for this coil, but what happens when another raid comes about where DK suddenly does not have such an impact? Suddenly, it's going to be MNK falling behind in utility aspect. Now the main problem I see here is that it's a flaw in the design of the fight and that is where the problem lies.

However, something like disembowel will always be relevant on any fight if you have a BRD with you. And TA will always be relevant even if you have a monkey with you.

It seems to be something that SE needs to look at, when it comes to their fights itself. A single signature move from one class should not make or break the content. And I don't think they intended it that way, I'm sure there must be other ways to bypass that part of the fight without a MNK (hell I'm pretty people HAVE.)

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

I'm sure there must be other ways to bypass that part of the fight without a MNK (hell I'm pretty people HAVE.)

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Of course there is another way to pass that part of the fight and that is to bring higher iLvl (for more VIT and more mDef/pDef), which means that you aren't going to be in the forefront of progression (remember that FCoB has been cleared within the first week which means no iLvls higher than 111; it wouldn't have been possible without a MNK).