Lock out is to heavy handed

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Originally Posted by Riviere

The lock out wouldn't exist if we didn't have people fishing for in-progress or just trolling the queues because they have insta queue. Back when ST was just introduced, I spent about 6 minutes of constant withdrawing from the same player. We couldn't even click commence and my chat log was pretty much filled with the player has withdrawn message. I opened a ticket to see if a GM could do something about it and he said they were working on a system that would punish people that did this, but honestly I didn't think they would implement it soon enough.

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SE Could have solved it by throwing in a 3x withdrawn in 30 minutes = 24 hours penalty rather than 3 times withdrawn in 24 hours = 30 minutes penalty. They chose not to. And as such, they screwed over a large number of players.

And making it count party wide is even more screwed up. During the weekend I was queued up with a PF group to help a person out. They had a few dps already, 1 tank and 1 healer. Couldn't get a last healer interested. Let's PUG it instead. Ready check, all ready. Duty finder put up to find the last healer. Soon after it popped. Disconnect symbol appears next to one of the DPS' names. 45 seconds pass. Oh joy. One or more party members failed to commence. The DPS logs back in. Retry. Tank and healer both were on their 3rd strike. As not all could wait an extra 30 minutes anymore, after having already wasted a lot of time getting the party together in the first place, it got disbanded.

But I'm sure that this is well within the spirit of SE offering an enjoyable gameplay experience. Kudoz to them for implementing such a great system. I sincerely hope they'll continue implementing more of these amazing features.

Nothing is more annoying than people who ask to be kicked in the dungeon, and upon denial log-off in the hopes to be kicked. I'd suggest to implement an automatic kick and 3 hour queue penalty upon disconnecting in a dungeon. That'll work out miracles as well.

Two wrong doesnt a right make neither the fact that you want to believe that is THE system that it makes it so, this system is flawed, totally flawed and adds a pressure for nothing, in the end, we will get people that wont queue anymore in progress and with that you will have parties that are left down in the mid of it to have no choice but to start over with long waits...this is one of the repercussions, but of course people are like donkey with blinders all they see is what is what is in front of their nose but cant see anything else, I can excuse those, they have no choice but people arent donkeys right ?

Mei

Stop making excuses.

Was there ever a time when if you were in battle (like fighting in a FATE) and the queue window pops, you would get an error that said something like "You cannot be in combat, leave combat and accept again"? I was fighting in a FATE yesterday when a ST queue popped and I hit accept and went into ST while I was fighting a boss. So this "It takes me longer than 45 seconds to escape combat in Sahagin/Kobold territory" doesn't work, unless the system doesn't allow you to accept a duty when running from overworld mobs. I do know that if fighting a FATE when the window pops up, you can accept it while fighting.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

Was there ever a time when if you were in battle (like fighting in a FATE) and the queue window pops, you would get an error that said something like "You cannot be in combat, leave combat and accept again"? I was fighting in a FATE yesterday when a ST queue popped and I hit accept and went into ST while I was fighting a boss. So this "It takes me longer than 45 seconds to escape combat in Sahagin/Kobold territory" doesn't work, unless the system doesn't allow you to accept a duty when running from overworld mobs. I do know that if fighting a FATE when the window pops up, you can accept it while fighting.

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They are grasping at straws trying to get their fishing back, but it wont happen.

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Originally Posted by Gralna

Even for a 2 hour queue I can still find any number of things to fill in the time, that I'll be able to drop at a second once queue pops.

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Let's not forget, too, that you have two freebies. Until that third strike is in front of you, you're free to do stuff that you CAN'T drop at a second once a queue pops.

Face it, situations where you can't make it to the queue in time aren't going to crop up very often during natural play. Unless you're a tank (in which case your queue time is nil anyway), you can usually flee FATEs. If you're crafting, even something complicated, that queue needs to pop near the start of your synth for you not to have time to finish. Bathroom break? They happen, but they're unlikely to happen three times in a row unless you're ill or something. Long cutscenes? Yeah, them's the breaks, but you only have to deal with them once each.

For those two free strikes, your playstyle doesn't have to change at all from what it was before, and you STILL likely won't expend those strikes. If you DO expend them, then it is now time to choose your activities more carefully. If you're in duty finder on your third strike, go to the bathroom first. Don't start any quests with long cutscenes. Be cautious about venturing into areas with lots of aggro that you might not be able to escape in time. Keep your crafting simple. Gathering is a good pasttime. And so on. It is not unreasonable to ask players to exercise a bit of common sense when they're on the verge of earning a penalty.

And if you take every precaution and STILL somehow manage to earn that third strike? You're out of Duty Finder for a half hour. 30 MINUTES. Whoop-de-frikkin'-do!

tl;dr, players who play normally will rarely have a problem with the three-strikes rule. People who formerly abused the system will have MAJOR problems with the three-strikes rule - especially if they expend their free strikes to further attempt to abuse the system, leaving them perpetually on the edge of a penalty. And that is all as it should be.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

They are grasping at straws trying to get their fishing back, but it wont happen.

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If they can identify those who used the system to fish and really abuse the system they should get more than a 30 minute lockout. That type of behavior is anti community and very selfish. Sadly because of losers who would abuse the system in that way others have to deal with remedies to try and fix it.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Stop making excuses.

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This, this, THIS!! This SO much!

The biggest excuse I am seeing on these forums is, "I had to take a poop," while the DF pops. If you need to use the bathroom, cancel the queue and re-queue when you're finished! There are easy ways to ensure you don't receive a penalty for the Duty Finder, but people want to get in ASAP, make assumptions that the DF won't pop while they're AFK for 2 mins, and are simply impatient. Also, 30 minutes isn't a long time, and it's hardly worth posting in the forums to whine about. No one cares about others' woes, really. =\ WORKING AS INTENDED, STFU. lol.

and again we have those that believe themselves superior and when it hits them are the first to run on these boards, there are some of them around that posted in this thread, speak of hypocrites, until it hits you, it never happens and is always the others' fault right ? 30mn for a healer, is a long wait, for any one 30mn is a long wait. Facts arent excuses though....eh?

Mei

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Originally Posted by Taliph

They are grasping at straws trying to get their fishing back, but it wont happen.

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No because despite their excuses, it working as intended & is a feature appreciated by vast amount of people for improving the duty finder queuing over all. Maybe needs some tweaks for the party queues. But other than that... it's working fine.

Since last week I have run ST 6-7 times with ONLY two withdraw from duty total. Before 2.4 I would of expected at least four MINIMUM on any one ST queue and upwards.

Also know if I got a long wait, then at the end of that wait a withdrawn from duty message is a lot less likely to happen and unlikely to happen at all on the second pop after that. Thus ultimately making queuing for duties quicker.

As for someone saying this will put off people using in progress. Still get people dropping into duties via in progress function and I still use in progress. Only ones unlikely to use the in progress were the fishers which were part of the problem in the first place.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

and again we have those that believe themselves superior and when it hits them are the first to run on these boards, there are some of them around that posted in this thread, speak of hypocrites, until it hits you, it never happens and is always the others' fault right ? 30mn for a healer, is a long wait, for any one 30mn is a long wait. Facts arent excuses though....eh?

Mei

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No one thinks they are "superior". Pretty sure the ones who you think, think themselves "Superior", would probably accept their 30 minute lock out and got on with their gaming until they could re-queue. Also you only get a 30 minute wait if you withdraw three times from a queue which has popped. Three times shouldn't be a common everyday experience. If it is, then you need to look at the activities you're doing whilst waiting for duties.

exactly my point Fellisin, and if you read by posts you will see it, this feature this lock out has changed ABSOLUTELY nothing, not even the drop. Yesterday I want to run CT, in and out for 7x in between again 5-6mn wait every time there was a withdraw, to me was norm and is norm. This feature changed nothing, but as far as I am concerned it slowed down the DF considerably during my play time, I am a healer, now my wait time went up to around 30 to 40mn (excluding roulettes those require around 10mn). Unbelievable right ? but it is though, what you want to believe is not necessarily what is. Some of us, me in first line, dont agree and find it stupid, it needs changes, or adjustments if you will, but saying that it works as intended is kind of silly because is not especially nto for groups. Before this fature to be implemented, there are far other things that would require action that are far more problematic.

Just me though

Mei

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

exactly my point Fellisin, and if you read by posts you will see it, this feature this lock out has changed ABSOLUTELY nothing,....

Just me though

Mei

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If that your experience it seems to run contradictory to virtually everyone else's I know of, including myself as a healer. I have experienced less withdrawn from duty pops and ST has been much quicker and easier to get in than ever before. Other day I did three in a row, no troll pops and in a time period I would of lucky to get two ST's in with all the troll pops that occurred.

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Originally Posted by Lucke

Was there ever a time when if you were in battle (like fighting in a FATE) and the queue window pops, you would get an error that said something like "You cannot be in combat, leave combat and accept again"? I was fighting in a FATE yesterday when a ST queue popped and I hit accept and went into ST while I was fighting a boss. So this "It takes me longer than 45 seconds to escape combat in Sahagin/Kobold territory" doesn't work, unless the system doesn't allow you to accept a duty when running from overworld mobs. I do know that if fighting a FATE when the window pops up, you can accept it while fighting.

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I know sometimes I do FATEs on a different class than I queued on, but still you can always just run away.

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Originally Posted by Fornix

SE Could have solved it by throwing in a 3x withdrawn in 30 minutes = 24 hours penalty rather than 3 times withdrawn in 24 hours = 30 minutes penalty. They chose not to. And as such, they screwed over a large number of players.

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They could have done that and we'd be getting exactly the same kind of threads, but with people complaining about being locked out for 24 hours instead of 30 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Fellisin

If that your experience it seems to run contradictory to virtually everyone else's I know of, including myself as a healer. I have experienced less withdrawn from duty pops and ST has been much quicker and easier to get in than ever before. Other day I did three in a row, no troll pops and in a time period I would of lucky to get two ST's in with all the troll pops that occurred.

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Same here. ST queue is better than ever before and I'm very thankful they did this. I haven't received a strike yet.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

This leads to a follow up question. Will there be a "are you ready" check to enter at all? If yes, then you've solved nothing with this as that player could just idle off or drop at that point. If it just drops the character in, allow me to suggest an issue with your design.

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You can suggest issues all you want - but it's not *my* design - it's the design of every other mmo queue on the planet. I never said a thing about dropping a player into a queue without warning. You still click the accept button when your queue pops, you just don't know what you are going into (x bosses killed) because the queue is truly randomized and just filters you as slots open. Voila - no more ability to fish for in-progress runs and no one needed to be penalized, ever. Really, these concepts aren't all that difficult. I don't understand why some of you are being so willfully obtuse.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Okay, I have to ask, honestly, how are you getting three strikes in 90 minutes?

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I'm not. I'm suggesting that overall, this was the incorrect way to address the issue. Instead of making people paranoid that they might miss a queue - fix the queue. That's what I've said from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

, in the end, we will get people that wont queue anymore in progress and with that you will have parties that are left down in the mid of it to have no choice but to start over with long waits...this is one of the repercussions

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I have zero idea what you are talking about with this statement. Literally. It is hyperbole and nothing more. I always queued in progress before the change. If one popped great, if not oh well I ran the full run I queued for (as the system intended). The same is still true for me and most people I know. Are you really saying that because someone cannot be assured they will get an in progress run they just won't queue for the chance they may get one? Why would someone pass up the opportunity for an in progress run just because its not assured one will pop? Am I missing something?

Honestly, all I get from this is "blah blah blah... I can't have my way so I'm taking my ball and going home QQ'ing... blah blah blah"... cause this example makes zero sense and smacks of making something up for the sake of making something up.

I haven't really read your other posts in depth but if they follow this pattern I am glad I haven't.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

I never said a thing about dropping a player into a queue without warning.

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Which is why I asked the question. That's what you do when you want clarification on things.

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You still click the accept button when your queue pops, you just don't know what you are going into (x bosses killed) because the queue is truly randomized and just filters you as slots open. Voila - no more ability to fish for in-progress runs and no one needed to be penalized, ever.

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This won't fix the troll factor or the folks who seem to queue and run off to the restroom incessantly. I'm also going to call an increase in abandoned duties now if this were implemented. The duty in progress feature has a purpose(s) that doesn't involve fishing and I'd like that to stay.

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Really, these concepts aren't all that difficult. I don't understand why some of you are being so willfully obtuse.

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So we've shifted from being toxic to just being clueless? That's a good change I guess. Some day we may just be dissenting fellow humans. I can dream right?

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I'm not. I'm suggesting that overall, this was the incorrect way to address the issue. Instead of making people paranoid that they might miss a queue - fix the queue. That's what I've said from the beginning.

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So you're being made paranoid about a penalty that you have never and likely will never be affected by and the bulk of the players will never be affected by and is designed to make a QoL improvement for the player base? Judging by the reactions I'm seeing both here and in game, it's been largely a positive move. Once they fix the party penalty, I suspect it will be even more so.

Well to be fair - the change implemented apparently didn't fix the troll factor either. The issue was people fishing in progress queues and withdrawing when they didn't get the one they wanted. That part was fixed, but you will always have people not joining a battle for whatever reason. It's not even people necessarily being trolls.

And no, I haven't shifted in my belief that this community overall is fairly toxic. I just reported a post today by a player who told another player to uninstall, stop subbing, go play an offline game, etc. Last night I watched another scuffle between some RP'ers and the folks who clearly think anyone who RP's is a waste of human life. Perhaps I've just been unlucky, being on a legacy server with a healthy population of mercs and just plain mean people. I don't know.

I still don't agree that adding a penalty is ever the right answer when the problem could have easily been fixed by patching up the hole. If YoshiP was truly concerned about players being able to fill dungeons for their friends (which was the original reason to leave the "In Progress" checkbox there instead of changing it months ago), he's clearly made that impossible with the new penalty and must have changed his mind. With that thought - I can't see any real reason to keep that check box there anymore, which means there's no need to have implemented this penalty. He's pretty much broken the original reason he wanted to keep it in the first place, unless the stars align and you are filtered directly into the dungeon your friends need you to help with. I've done it in the past - and it's not sure fire to get an in progress even when queuing a single dungeon. I'd had to withdraw a couple times to get the right one.

So why not take out the whole in-progress checkbox, remove the penalty, and let dungeons fill as they will?

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Originally Posted by Fellisin

If that your experience it seems to run contradictory to virtually everyone else's I know of, including myself as a healer. I have experienced less withdrawn from duty pops and ST has been much quicker and easier to get in than ever before. Other day I did three in a row, no troll pops and in a time period I would of lucky to get two ST's in with all the troll pops that occurred.

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Same with me.

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Now if your getting 3 strikes maybe you should not queue if you may need to afk or maybe withdraw when you go afk if you're not sure how long it will be. I for one was ecstatic when I seen the patch notes and seen they were doing this and am happier now I know it actually is working.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You can suggest issues all you want - but it's not *my* design - it's the design of every other mmo queue on the planet. I never said a thing about dropping a player into a queue without warning. You still click the accept button when your queue pops, you just don't know what you are going into (x bosses killed) because the queue is truly randomized and just filters you as slots open. Voila - no more ability to fish for in-progress runs and no one needed to be penalized, ever. Really, these concepts aren't all that difficult. I don't understand why some of you are being so willfully obtuse.

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So please tell me, what does a person do when they don't want to wait an hour just to get into a run that's at the last boss? If you're looking for exp, this is essentially a huge waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Well to be fair - the change implemented apparently didn't fix the troll factor either.

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It doesn't solve trolls in instances, no. It does remove a method (a very lame method granted) of griefing other players. Part of what helps my play experience vs the experience I had in WoW was how some of the mechanics in final fantasy were designed to take away some opportunities to make other players lives difficult.

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And no, I haven't shifted in my belief that this community overall is fairly toxic. I just reported a post today by a player who told another player to uninstall, stop subbing, go play an offline game, etc. Last night I watched another scuffle between some RP'ers and the folks who clearly think anyone who RP's is a waste of human life. Perhaps I've just been unlucky, being on a legacy server with a healthy population of mercs and just plain mean people. I don't know.

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And you should report them. Please keep reporting them. Again, coming from the blizzard side of things, this place is positively pleasant.

Part of the RP problem is that SE hasn't made the leap and christened an official RP server with appropriate GM rules of enforcement. It's a long time coming and it needs to be done. It's sad that, while very little RP happens on Siren, I've never seen what is happening get attacked by other players. Probably because it's novel.

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I still don't agree that adding a penalty is ever the right answer when the problem could have easily been fixed by patching up the hole. If YoshiP was truly concerned about players being able to fill dungeons for their friends (which was the original reason to leave the "In Progress" checkbox there instead of changing it months ago), he's clearly made that impossible with the new penalty and must have changed his mind. With that thought - I can't see any real reason to keep that check box there anymore, which means there's no need to have implemented this penalty. He's pretty much broken the original reason he wanted to keep it in the first place, unless the stars align and you are filtered directly into the dungeon your friends need you to help with. I've done it in the past - and it's not sure fire to get an in progress even when queuing a single dungeon. I'd had to withdraw a couple times to get the right one.

So why not take out the whole in-progress checkbox, remove the penalty, and let dungeons fill as they will?

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The only reason I ever use that checkbox is to help people in my Linkshells finish instances and I like the ability to do that. If it can be used solo to run the daily roulettes more quickly, then I can see it's value there as well. It's a feature I like in the game. As I said before, I think if you did the free-for-all randoms, you'd see an increase of withdraw/abandons.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

So please tell me, what does a person do when they don't want to wait an hour just to get into a run that's at the last boss? If you're looking for exp, this is essentially a huge waste of time.

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You queue for the highest dungeon your level bracket allows by itself. When you are running the random queue you are really only trying to get the bonus anyway, right?

That's basically how I leveled all my classes. Why would you want to continue to use the random queue to level when you could be put in a Satasha at level 40, where you won't even get level appropriate drops?

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The only reason I ever use that checkbox is to help people in my Linkshells finish instances and I like the ability to do that. If it can be used solo to run the daily roulettes more quickly, then I can see it's value there as well. It's a feature I like in the game. As I said before, I think if you did the free-for-all randoms, you'd see an increase of withdraw/abandons.

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Do you not realize that you have now basically lost the ability to do that?

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Do you not realize that you have now basically lost the ability to do that?

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No, I haven't. I can still queue party in progress for that specific duty. Only once have I not ended up in their instance and I did what I will continue to do, apologize to the folks in the LS and complete the instance I got.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

No, I haven't. I can still queue party in progress for that specific duty. Only once have I not ended up in their instance and I did what I will continue to do, apologize to the folks in the LS and complete the instance I got.

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You aren't guaranteed an in progress run just because you checked the box. You might eat a penalty or two before getting the correct dungeon. I've used the in progress feature as well to help friends, and popular (storyline\log\etc) dungeons that are queued for individually frequently can be prioritized weirdly. I've had to withdraw a time or two before getting the right queue in the past. It might not be as simple as you imagine it to be anymore.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You aren't guaranteed an in progress run just because you checked the box. You might eat a penalty or two before getting the correct dungeon. I've used the in progress feature as well to help friends, and popular (storyline\log\etc) dungeons that are queued for individually frequently can be prioritized weirdly. I've had to withdraw a time or two before getting the right queue in the past. It might not be as simple as you imagine it to be anymore.

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That's true, you're not. That said, and this is just conjecture, I suspect that, for most situations, the duty finder prioritizes parties in progress higher when deciding where to put the new player. So when the healer rage quits from Cutter's Cry, odds are good that when I switch to WHM and queue as party in progress for Cutter's Cry, I'm going to get a party in progress. Maybe not the exact one I want, but I should get one.

I guess we will just have to wait and see. I expect sooner or later I'll have to test it out, so hopefully they made some changes to the prioritization along with this penalty addition.

Good discussion, at any rate. I'm sure that over time SE will make tweaks and improvements. I haven't lost faith in YoshiP to look at trends and make things better. Acknowledging that there was an issue with in-progress fishing was a positive thing, regardless of his chosen implementation of a fix.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You queue for the highest dungeon your level bracket allows by itself. When you are running the random queue you are really only trying to get the bonus anyway, right?

That's basically how I leveled all my classes. Why would you want to continue to use the random queue to level when you could be put in a Satasha at level 40, where you won't even get level appropriate drops?

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Actually when I queue for roulette when I'm leveling a job, I go for a full run. Why would I want to wait so long just to only get the bonus at the end?

And what about runs like ST? There's no roulette option there. Should we put into a run completely randomly? What if I want drops from the first boss? I should just accept a run that has already beaten it?

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Originally Posted by IfritReborn

Clearly you can't read either

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What's that saying? Oh yea..... "you're emergency is not my emergency"... Unbothered. When something literally does not even effect most people to call it a "major flaw" is a ridiculous stretch. Most people do not care if it is a minor inconvenience (at BEST) to people who FREQUENTLY withdraw when a que pops.....

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Originally Posted by Akira_Tenshi

I had to withdraw 3 times yesterday. I was leveling Ninja and kept getting stuck in combat chased across half the zone before it would allow me to change jobs to accept. You also can't accept the queue in a cutscene. It's like they just expect us to sit and wait, for 2-3 hours. I did not get the penalty though for some reason. You don't always have to be AFK to miss it there are times it simply just doesn't allow you to accept or give you time to change jobs.

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Yup, this was and sadly still is the main problem of the Game when it comes down to registering to dungeons that you are almost bound to stand still while you wait. I have zero problems with the three times withdrawl penalty but how they handle it in general is not player friendly at all. I almost forgot about it till I started levelling Ninja. I wish there would be a checkbox where I can allow the Game to put me into the dungeon automatically without I have to manually change the class. And what bugs my little NIN most is that he can't just do a few FATES or slain mobs while waiting with the choccobo out.

I know they said it has something to do with how they coded the birdie and that he acts similiar to a group member but it is beyond me why this can't be changed? Why can't they just auto-disband the birdie when you enter the dungeon? I do not get this inconvinience and why they can't provide a solution even after an entire Year this Game is out and people are asking for it all the time. I wait 30-90 minutes per dungeon if I go alone. What am I supposed to do in that time? Stand still and look cool in Mor Dhona?