Please be considerate to newer players!

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Originally Posted by Wyrmnus

Hello Forum community. Ima place something a great person I grouped with once said.

T.E.A.M.

Together Everyone Achieves More.

Be one with your team members, understand the team members. They are your allies, your comrades, and your party members. NOT YOUR TOOLS!

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Good luck with that in this community. They don't even know how use the terms "hand holding" and "handed to you" right.

Edit: That's actually some very nice words. I do run into people who care more about the team and less about me.. me.

DF = learning parties. PF = whatever you want to make it. That's how I treat the two unless proven otherwise.

Next to that, how hard is it to be kind and considerate? I can tell you right now, that sometimes it pays off too. I met a very nice tank through a Sastasha run. It became clear he was new, I tried to help him as best as I could. It took an hour to clear it with all the tips and tricks.
Turns out, this tank is on my server. So we friended and right now *wipes tear away*... He's made me a proud mama. He was doing DD speed runs, no issue. He read the guides I linked him to. Now he's 50PLD with all the required cross class abilities and I can't wait to dungeon run with him again. He was even so happy for the help, that he offered to give me a materia IV for my gatherer, which I declined. Told him to sell it and roll in the gil.

While it's quite possible to hit 50 without really knowing how to fill your role, I'm not sure how that could be addressed. People who want to play well will pay attention and do their homework by comparing notes with others; those who don't care can't really be forced to care, and the same system that provides for them to lvl in duties often enables them by providing experienced or overpowered (*cough* SCH in lowbie dungeons) carries.

Also, this community is not nearly so toxic as some like to pretend. There are whole FCs out there (at least on Faerie), whose main focus is attracting new players and helping them get their 50+ game going. People who can't find friendly company or learning parties usually aren't trying very hard or are waiting for someone to walk up and hand them a brochure or something.

There's a lot of talk about how someone can get to 50 or be i90 and not understand their class. This, to me is part of the problem, it shouldn't be about "how do you NOT know your class?" but rather people's attitudes towards said players.

Players learn things at different rates, and players playing a new class experience aspects of a fight they've never handled before, and will adapt and learn at different rates.

it's being "considerate to new players"

a tank on their first T1 run doesn't want to hear the comment "fucking idiot tank" after they loose hate to a trigger happy DPS almost 20 i levels above them.

how is this being considerate? how is this knowing if they their job in the first place?

everybody needs to be adaptable to a point, and I think it's much easier for an experienced player to lower their level of play to suit an inexperienced or new player than it is to drag a new player up simply by saying "you should know better, but I'm not going to teach you".

Not every dungeon or fight is the same. I've healed Ramuh Ex as SCH (sweet baby Jesus, that was an experience on its own). But I cleared it as Bard before that. After two tries, I cleared it on SCH as well. Mind you, I'm fresh out of healing school.
Then I tried healing Twintania, I had to switch because it was slowing the FC down. Just because you have cleared something before, know the fight from a different point of view, doesn't mean you can fullfill another role just as easily. It's a whole new ballgame.

I haven't done any of the HM dungeons just yet as SCH. I might fall flat on my face, it might be cake. I don't know but I do know that it will be a bit of a learning curve on every new role I may try.

[QUOTE=Yukariko;2497698 "fucking idiot tank"[/QUOTE]

Depends if they know how to grab aggro back or at least tried to? Besides that kind of comment is so NA servers lol

Had something similar happen last night in AK, told the tank hey I havent been here in almost 10 months and another person in the party it was his first time there. I was heals and new person was dps, guess what tank, wanted a sr anyway. cleared it in about 25 min but still trying to heal and explain to the new person was not fun but it all worked out in the end.

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Originally Posted by Empressia

Depends if they know how to grab aggro back or at least tried to? Besides that kind of comment is so NA servers lol

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that requires an understanding of provoke (and following aggro generating moves) on the tanks part and the dps knowing before hand that the tank knows how to get aggro back.
the dps didn;t know this but gave an inexperienced tank no consideration. but instead was rude.
someone saying "I'm new / first time tanking this" (which the tank did say) implies that mistakes might happen and that those who are experienced should maybe be considerate enough to cut them some slack.
the tank did get hate back with no raid wipes.


If a tank is inexperienced, "be considerate" it takes nothing on a dps's part to wait 6-7 seconds before they go into full dps rotation.

it's simple situational awareness and adaptability, runs will go much smoother and the community will be much better for it.

"Be Considerate" is the anti-thesis to the speedrunner or speedfarmers. They do no want to have to spend time ever to explain anything or slow down for anything. They do NOT even want to spend time recruiting their own speed run farm statics. They feel just because they have experience, they are entitled to have the system magically find them a speed farm party whenever they want. They take for granted all the other players and expect them to be there for them at their beck and call, be it PF or DF.

Unfortunately, the moment reality hits them that there are newer players they get mad and want to do whatever they can to exclude the newbies and/or take out their anger at them. It doesn't matter if it is tanks than are having problems keeping aggro, dps that don't know their rotations, healers having trouble keeping up, or just people don't know all phases of the fight, or just people that still need more practice, or people that want to watch cutscenes for the 1st-time, "being considerate" is something the speedrunner/speedfarmers want to do. Luckily these people are a small minority and not encountered at every run, but their hatred and contempt for newbies or newer players come thru loud and clear.
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Originally Posted by ziddyt

....."Don't tell me to speed up, but let me tell you to slow down"

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You can not push a string. You can not demand people to magically gain experience, skill, or suddenly be geared up more than they are. The practical reality is slowing down makes things possible and workable, but speeding up when the group is not ready, that is a guaranteed wipe. Demanding that newbies/newe players meet them half-way is just another one of those false equivalences, because they can't fix what they don't know. Watching all the videos is no substitute for actual experience and practice.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

If the player wants to control the pace, they can be the tank since it's pretty much that role's job.

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A tank no more controls the pace, than a healer or the DPS in the group. If the DPS can't keep up and the pull is too big it is a wipe. If the the healer can't keep up, it is a wipe. Similarily, if people want to pull more than the tank can handle it is also wipe. Speed and pace is something the team has to work out and work together.

I once had a Titan HM with someone who decided to go off on me for dying. I pointed out that they died multiple times. He said it was because he did so much damage that the tank couldn't hold it.

I'm still trying to figure out why that's something to brag about.

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Originally Posted by Violyre

I once had a Titan HM with someone who decided to go off on me for dying. I pointed out that they died multiple times. He said it was because he did so much damage that the tank couldn't hold it.

I'm still trying to figure out why that's something to brag about.

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It's not. It's basically saying "I'm a bad DPS that doesn't know how to throttle back for a less geared tank."

Just when I thought I heard it all. Just a fews minutes ago, this BLM in DF just straight up told the tank to leave because he was tanking with a controller... WHHHHAAATTT?!!!

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

To sum up the sentiment in this topic
"Don't tell me to speed up, but let me tell you to slow down"

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I understand the sentiment behind that. The thing is, it's easier for someone who's overgeared/experienced to slow down than it is for someone who's undergeared/unexperienced to suddenly be neither so that a speed run is possible. An i90 player can't suddenly turn into i110, but an i110 player can easily slow down to a pace that an i90 can comfortably handle.

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Originally Posted by RaquelleAvarosa

New to tanking

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Nope

By lvl 50 you should be well versed in how to tank. If you want to fate farm your way to 50 you're going to get a crash course and have to deal with a lot of rage which is no ones fault but your own.

If you didn't learn your job by using fates, hunting logs and leves instead of your insta-queue tank dungeons (which are better exp by far anyway) don't expect a df group to coddle you, instead get some fc members together and learn your rotations and abilities that way.

I am more than happy to give tips about a particular dungeon to someone who has never been before. Like the tank I walked through AK last week since it was his first time through. I covered tactics and which mobs to skip but he knew how to play his job and it was all good.

Just like in life don't come to a job unprepared and under skilled. You are not going to get a trophy just for showing up.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

That is so true.

But don't tell the speed runners. They will hate you and me and everyone else that tells them to slow down. I've seen these crazy fools vote kick a healer because, after the firs boss on SV HM, the healer was telling them to slow and needed some time to recharge MP, but they went ahead aggroed the mobs and wiped the party.

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I play HM dungeons as healer (WHM) e sometimes I have problems to heal runners (once the tank was wearing DPS gear). I try to do my best, but I don't feel guilt if a runner dies because he/she did a huge pull and died before I could heal.

Yeah, speedrunners are one of the reasons why some people stop going to DF as a tank or healer.

I once queue inprogress and they were in the last boss for Wanderers Palace. They were glad that a "real" tank showed up due to me having 8000+ hp while the previous only had 4000. Here I was thinking: wow the tank must've been fresh 50 and not be fully myth geared like me and suffered abuse from these folks to quite in the last boss.

I queue in progress for not only getting quick clears, but also to help just in case a tank had to leave since I know how it feels waiting on a tank as a dps or healer. Now I don't know if I wanna risk helping such rude people.

I've done hundreds of dungeons and only encountered a few of these horror stories. So I'm lucky I guess.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

A tank no more controls the pace, than a healer or the DPS in the group.

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The tank absolutely controls the pace of the dungeon in all cases except when a tanking role is not truly necessary; players tend to follow behind the tank. Only the healer has nearly as much control, and "nearly" only because a recalcitrant healer is easier to replace. DPS are easily replaceable and sometimes not even missed if not replaced.

Also, wanting to speedrun is not synonymous with being inconsiderate or hating new players. I understand wanting to advocate for new players, but A) the baby Eorzeans outgrow their training pants faster and less traumatically than you think, and B) constantly making insulting assumptions about the community at large isn't helping your case for a kinder, gentler MMO. You hate elitists and whatever you perceive to be exclusionary practices...we all got that about 50 posts ago....

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

... Only the healer has nearly as much control, and "nearly" only because a recalcitrant healer is easier to replace. DPS are easily replaceable and sometimes not even missed if not replaced.

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Replacing players is by no means to determine whether the tank, dps, or healer controls the pace. You can replace everyone you get and still wipe on the same mobs over and over and still get nowhere fast. Tanks lead, but they do not set the pace by any stretch of the imagination. The tank that runs ahead and gets themselves killed can be replaced by the 3 others just as easily. Under no circumstances should other player feel compelled to follow a tank into their folly.

As I've said before, the speed run itself is neutral, but the problem is the speedrunner that want to force people to do things their way, and usually do so without any discussion. Because to discuss it is by some of their definition no longer a speed run. They don't want to explain anything, communicate, or coordinate. They think all the other players are just NPC running a script to suit them, i.e. taking all the other players for granted. I don't insult or make assumptions about the community at large ever, in just seem that when the speedrunners gets called out for their bad behavior, they are not happy.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Snip.

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I don't think you get the concept of pacing in a dungeon.

If the tank doesn't want to speed run, you are not having one; if the tank insists on speed running, the group can either follow or not progress at all. If the healer isn't ready to move, no one is moving; if one or sometimes even both DPS fail to move, they can catch up, because no one needs to wait for them.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I don't think you get the concept of pacing in a dungeon. ...

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I don't think you understand the reality of speedrunners trying to force a speed run in dungeon. If tank is not ready (geared, experienced or otherwise) for a speed run, the healer and/or the DPS will pull mobs for the tank and then verbally abuse the tank about not flashing or what not, like what the OP talked about at the start of this thread. Or they move to vote kick the tank, it has all happened and still continues to happen.

BTW if the healer or dps don't want to speedrun, you are not getting one either. The time you spend trying to replace them or going without one means time lost and it is no longer a speedrun anyways. Time spent wiping by forcing a speedrun also leads to effectively not having a speedrun.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

I don't think you understand the reality of speedrunners trying to force a speed run in dungeon. If tank is not ready (geared, experienced or otherwise) for a speed run, the healer and/or the DPS will pull mobs for the tank and then verbally abuse the tank about not flashing or what not, like what the OP talked about at the start of this thread. Or they move to vote kick the tank, it has all happened and still continues to happen.

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So vote kick the tank; he'll have a new, almost certainly better group immediately while the toxic group he left will probably have to start over if not sit and wait a while for a replacement.

Even if I know my tank is really awful, I will not attempt to replace him unless he himself is toxic. It's not worth the hassle.

see, I feel a lot different from a lot of people here, saying that they would rather dps a new dungeon rather than heal of tank it. I almost never run dps, because I like to set the paces. if im a tank, and dps or heals is pulling faster than I can handle, I kindly ask the healer to let him die. if I'm a healer, unless its the tank doing the speed pulling, if you pull before the tank, you spank it. if the tank decides to take the aggro from the pulling dps, that's the equivalent to consent, and ill heal him through.

as far as players getting snippety about not being able to speedrun, you can tell them that if they don't like it, they can vote kick, or stop snapping, and if they get abusive, change your log to filter party chat. for most speedrun content, party communication is not required. if they do vote kick, fine! I'm a tank, I can always get another insta queue!

I love healing though, from hc wow raid days. and tanking is lots of fun.