Undercutting

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Originally Posted by Noll

So who's buying them is making more and more money off you.

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no1curr. that's the thing.

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Originally Posted by Noll

So who's buying them is making more and more money off you.

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Then why are you complaining? You make money off me, don't come and complain on the forums on undercutts lol
That's what I'm saying, it's a win-win. You get gil off of me, and I get a fast clean up on my inventory. We both happy :D

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Originally Posted by Noll

Anyway, if you keep undercutting obsessively your goods even if ur not selling them, you are the one obsessed with gil gains.

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I don't even. How am I obssesed with gil if I don't care about it...? I really would like to know lol... As I said, I only care to clean my inventory, making gil on the way is a bonus. I even discard or NPC most of the stuff I think not even worth it... Really curious as to why you find me obssesed with gil XD

The obssesed ones are the one making this thread everyday and standing in front of the market board refreshing it lol

Like others have said, just buy them and resell them, it is all depends on how much you want it to sell for, and it never equals how much people want to pay.

competitions are good for consumers, and dont forget you are also a consumer. I dont think you want to overpay for anything right?

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Originally Posted by Dilu_Bakari

So the inferno Horn usually sells for 1.2 mil at the least. So people are so desperate for gil you will undercut someone and the idiots follow along with this clown, to go as low as 900k? Where they do that at?

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Your topic is a joke. If no one is buying your item at 1.2mil. It means that its no longer worth 1.2mil, which is why your competition is selling cheaper in hope someone will buy it. Instead of getting angry why people is selling cheaper, WHY ARE YOU SELLING IT SO HIGH AT 1.2MIL!?

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

Oh dang why didn't I think of that. It's always been done so there's no problems guys. I should use this on anyone who's ever been discriminated against.

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You're comparing undercutting using virtual currency in a computer game to discrimination.

A cynical person may say you just threw that word in there to try to add weight to your argument.

I'm sure you wouldn't do that though.

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

It is quite possible I will be found out for posting this.

But I have made sure my retainers... are notorious
I always use them to make a point
I am willing to crash/ruin the specific market we share just to teach them that lesson
I make them regret that thoroughly
I quickly ruin their life
I will be as ruthless as I need to be to come out on top.

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zzzzzzzz -- wha?? Huh? Did you say something? I nodded off there.

Sorry, but no one cares. No one knows who you or your retainers are. You are imagining things. Someone's item failing to sell right away is not ruining their life or teaching them a lesson. Players will continue to sell items for whatever prices they want, which is how it should be.

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

I'm honestly not so ruthless in anything else but the gil- if that means anything at all to you.

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It doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Shadray

You're comparing undercutting using virtual currency in a computer game to discrimination.

A cynical person may say you just threw that word in there to try to add weight to your argument.

I'm sure you wouldn't do that though.

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I figured you might say this. As ridiculous as a comparison as it seems, so is the justification that you used. You're right, I could have used any word. The fact is, "it's what always happens" doesn't excuse any type of behavior solely on that basis nor does it mean that there isn't a problem with said behavior. It's too bad that point is so easily distracted from lol. And a cynical person might say you used the old "don't compare games to real life" card, but I'm sure you wouldn't do that though.

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Originally Posted by Dilu_Bakari

So the inferno Horn usually sells for 1.2 mil at the least. So people are so desperate for gil you will undercut someone and the idiots follow along with this clown, to go as low as 900k? Where they do that at?

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If it's sold before at 1.2 mil, then there are likely still some players willing to pay that much. However, there are also a lot of players who would like one, but are either unable or unwilling to pay that much. Some of them might however be willing to pay 900K. All those who would pay 900K but can't or won't pay 1.2M have just been added to the buying pool by the player who was willing to undercut that far. More potential buyers means less time until one of them comes across the MB listing and buys it, resulting in a quicker profit to the seller.

That's the logic behind any large undercuts. The 1 gil lower style of undercutting is simply an attempt to stay at the top of the list to be the next sold item, but it doesn't really impact how soon the next item will sell. The significant drops like this example are an attempt to increase the number of potential buyers, so that it will sell faster. Some players desire a quick profit more than a larger but long delayed profit. (It also means this type of large undercut makes a lot more sense on big-ticket rare items than on common but high-demand items.)

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

Oh dang why didn't I think of that. It's always been done so there's no problems guys. I should use this on anyone who's ever been discriminated against.

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This is the most ignorant comment I've read in a long time. And that is saying something, considering I've read a couple of posts by that whiny kid who got banned recently...

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Originally Posted by kidvideo

This is the most ignorant comment I've read in a long time. And that is saying something, considering I've read a couple of posts by that whiny kid who got banned recently...

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What's your point? I shall edit my post to make it clearer for people like yourself.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

What's your point? I shall edit my post to make it clearer for people like yourself.

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Please don't bother. My point was obvious. Your's isn't worth the bits with such an inane comparison.

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Originally Posted by kidvideo

Please don't bother. My point was obvious. Your's isn't worth the bits with such an inane comparison.

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Then thank you for taking the time to attack me personally rather than add to the discourse. Exit is that way.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

Then thank you for taking the time to attack me personally rather than add to the discourse. Exit is that way.

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Any time, bub. You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

<sarcasm>Oh dang why didn't I think of that. It's always been done so there's no problems guys. I should use this on anyone who's ever been discriminated against.</sarcasm>

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So how would you fix undercutting? break some legs? force people to comply? Standardize prices? If someone is desperate to get rid of an Item, they'll sell it for less.

Almost like supply and demand work in game...

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

So how would you fix undercutting? break some legs? force people to comply? Standardize prices? If someone is desperate to get rid of an Item, they'll sell it for less.

Almost like supply and demand work in game...

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Did I say anything about fixing undercutting? If you had read any of my posts, I didn't say anything about fixing undercutting. My big deal is undercutting by massive amounts for no good reason (like in the OP's example). Also, the post you quoted was a (failed) attempt at hyperbole to show that saying "we've always done it" is not a good reason to excuse any kind of behavior. Yes, I'm familiar with the concept of supply and demand (read my earlier post? lol). I feel I've already addressed this. So, to reiterate, it's understandable to undercut reasonably (open to interpretation, of course), but undercutting by massive amounts for no good reason is a problem with undercutting. So, saying there's NO problem with undercutting is just flat out wrong.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

Did I say anything about fixing undercutting? If you had read any of my posts, I didn't say anything about fixing undercutting. My big deal is undercutting by massive amounts for no good reason (like in the OP's example). Also, the post you quoted was a (failed) attempt at hyperbole to show that saying "we've always done it" is not a good reason to excuse any kind of behavior. Yes, I'm familiar with the concept of supply and demand (read my earlier post? lol). I feel I've already addressed this.

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I did read, and I understood your hyperbole, and i'm not looking to chastise you for it. In fact, i agree on that point. My point is undercutting for 'no good reason' is probably due to someone wanting to get rid of an item, and thus is a supply and demand issue. someone has more supply than they would like, and thus they will lower the price to create a more immediate demand.

EDIT: Seriously... I got the point of that quote and I thought it came across well because it is absurd reasoning to think that 'we have always done it' is a good justification for anything and is still used today to screw some people... /digression

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

So how would you fix undercutting? break some legs? force people to comply? Standardize prices? If someone is desperate to get rid of an Item, they'll sell it for less.

Almost like supply and demand work in game...

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I'll provide answers for whiners.

So how would you fix undercutting? Free market. Not a problem.
break some legs? Illegal. Racketeering.
force people to comply? See above.
Standardize prices? Price fixing is illegal.

As with any business: adapt or close your shop.

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

I did read, and I understood your hyperbole, and i'm not looking to chastise you for it. In fact, i agree on that point. My point is undercutting for 'no good reason' is probably due to someone wanting to get rid of an item, and thus is a supply and demand issue. someone has more supply than they would like, and thus they will lower the price to create a more immediate demand.

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And that's a fair point. But undercutting by a vast amount doesn't necessarily stimulate demand. Some people might just flat out not want what you have to sell, so undercutting it by so much serves no purpose. It might work in some cases, but not always.

edit: Also, I said this earlier on as well, but I mainly empathize with people like the OP that are kind of puzzled by the randomness of some undercutters ("Hmm, it's selling for 1mil? Putting mine up for 500k"). I don't think it's on us to really come up with a solution for this. If it's really such a huge problem, I'm sure the dev team would address it in some way. That doesn't mean it's not worth talking about, especially if it bothers some people. People come in and try to shut down the conversation with a "get over it" attitude, and well, that's kind of a bummer. There are lots of valid points on both sides.

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

although it does ensure their item will be picked first when someone comes to it. It may not create demand for that product, but within the product itself, it tilts the scale towards the undercutter. not to defend the Walmart practice of marketing, but holding out for a certain value for the product is a long game

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Yeah, but this also grants credence to another idea I brought up. And that's how this practice ends up ruining the prices on some items. This tends to happens with items that take longer than a couple days to sell. I've seen it happen, and sure I understand the market will reach an equilibrium price at some point. The seller either settles for the smaller sale price or forfeits selling that item altogether, and just moves onto something else. This can be used to corner the market (like someone else in this thread mentioned doing) and maybe the guy is able to raise the prices back up. Most of the time though, the item stays low and overall profits on the item are diminished. I've seen it happen recently with housing items and seeds after 2.38, but I wouldn't say those are the only categories affected.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

And that's a fair point. But undercutting by a vast amount doesn't necessarily stimulate demand. Some people might just flat out not want what you have to sell, so undercutting it by so much serves no purpose. It might work in some cases, but not always.

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although it does ensure their item will be picked first when someone comes to it. It may not create demand for that product, but within the product itself, it tilts the scale towards the undercutter. not to defend the Walmart practice of marketing, but holding out for a certain value for the product is a long game

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Originally Posted by hqdm

I wanna milk as much as I can out of a single item, and so I'll resort to minimal undercuts to preserve the price.

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Greed Rules.

Leave it to humans to manage a market, and this is what you end up with. SE must be laughing.

When an Item with the upmost rarity comes in, the first one that will put it make 'the price' <-- rules by Greed. Don't start with yeah but the economy, the system, the % of drop, nah: pure Greed.

And then: preserve the price. There is no set price, except what SE put down the item window if you are selling it to NPCs.

No one would complain if it was managed by SE, and then everyone would end up having the same stuff as it should since it's an MMO.

So now there is a disparity and give some a little advantage over others, seeing that with time, we will get the loot.

I will always put the price I want, judging how others have put theirs, so that I can have the Gil I want from it and be satisfied.

You can then buy it and resell higher, I don't care, we'll both end up being happy.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

Yeah, but this also grants credence to another idea I brought up. And that's how this practice ends up ruining the prices on some items. This tends to happens with items that take longer than a couple days to sell. I've seen it happen, and sure I understand the market will reach an equilibrium price at some point. The seller either settles for the smaller sale price or forfeits selling that item altogether...

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another Cogent point. But I don't see a resolution to this problem unless there is some market regulation limiting the range of prices of an item around a certain standard set by the company.

Maybe a more interesting fix would be making items wait a week before they are posted, thus everyone has the play a longer game while selling things instead of trying to grab immediate gold.

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

another Cogent point. But I don't see a resolution to this problem unless there is some market regulation limiting the range of prices of an item around a certain standard set by the company.

Maybe a more interesting fix would be making items wait a week before they are posted, thus everyone has the play a longer game while selling things instead of trying to grab immediate gold.

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That's interesting. I've also seen mention in the past of there being a listing fee as well, which might help to reduce the tit-for-tat pricing wars that tend to occur. These types of fixes would require some will on part of the dev team though, which I'm all for if they even consider the issue.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

My big deal is undercutting by massive amounts for no good reason (like in the OP's example).

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Yet the OP's example sounds like exactly the sort of case where a large undercut does in fact make perfect sense. It's big ticket items like that which get the biggest boost in demand when the price is lowered to a point where more people can afford them. It just indicates that the seller is in a hurry to sell so is expanding their potential customer base. (A similar drop in the price of an already cheap item might qualify as being "for no good reason" but there are plenty of people who won't spend over a million gil on something.)

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Originally Posted by Synestr

I will agree to a point. Some prices for some things are just...wtf. Map minions come to mind. Other things though, that have gone through a "standardization" period, such as ores, ingots, jewlrey etc., what is the point of marking it down a few thousand just to get the quick sale?

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Why you ask undercut on items with "standard" prices? To crash the market of course. Now you probably ask, why would i want to do something like that? If i do that, an prices fall, then nobody makes money right? Wrong.

What i do, when i first get into a market (won't be sharing any details here, trade secrets and all), is assess how much it costs me to produce said item. Whether it be a gil amount for items that i craft, or a time investment for farmed items (i have a conversion to say how much time it worth). I will then obtain a massive amount of the item in question, after doing all the research, thousands of them. The first step is to completely kill my competition. In a world where all of the products are the "same' and i can't provide better service or higher quality items, i am left with only price as my option. So, i crash the market. I sell 1000 or so of this item (obviously less for the really rare), for a lower rate, until people realize i undercut and start undercutting me. Then i undercut them again, and the battle begins.

Eventually, because of MY goals and mission, as well as my supply and persistence, i will win the battle. I will be happy selling an item for weeks at a time with no profit, or even at a loss if i really want into that market. Because of this, people will eventually give up.

Now, my competition is gone, i have no competition, i am now the singular provider for this item on the server. Because of that, i can set prices however i want, generally this period will only last a few days or so, but for a few days, i can generally sell stuff for 10 or 20 times the original cost, making more than if i had just "played by the rules" and only undercut by 1 gil and having competition for sales. Then, i repeat the process all over again once the market stabilizes.

Crashing the market, that's why you undercut so much.

Stupid 1000 character limit....

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Originally Posted by Typhon66

What i do, when i first get into a market (won't be sharing any details here, trade secrets and all), is assess how much it costs me to produce said item. Whether it be a gil amount for items that i craft, or a time investment for farmed items (i have a conversion to say how much time it worth). I will then obtain a massive amount of the item in question, after doing all the research, thousands of them. The first step is to completely kill my competition. In a world where all of the products are the "same' and i can't provide better service or higher quality items, i am left with only price as my option. So, i crash the market. I sell 1000 or so of this item (obviously less for the really rare), for a lower rate, until people realize i undercut and start undercutting me. Then i undercut them again, and the battle begins.

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Ladies and Gentlemen? Wal-mart is here.

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Originally Posted by Typhon66

Eventually, because of MY goals and mission, as well as my supply and persistence, i will win the battle. I will be happy selling an item for weeks at a time with no profit, or even at a loss if i really want into that market. Because of this, people will eventually give up.

Now, my competition is gone, i have no competition, i am now the singular provider for this item on the server. Because of that, i can set prices however i want, generally this period will only last a few days or so, but for a few days, i can generally sell stuff for 10 or 20 times the original cost,

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Selling for weeks at a time at a loss with high volume in order to try for big markups for a few days that will have little if any volume may occasionally come out ahead, but not usually. That strategy only works in situations with a high cost of entry, where eliminating your competition would actually mean something. In this game, where there is no cost of entry, and competition isn't eliminated but only put off temporarily while you're still selling at a loss, it won't help you. Your competition will be back again as soon as you try to take advantage of it being gone by raising the prices.

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Originally Posted by Typhon66

Now, my competition is gone, i have no competition,

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Always entertaining to see folks who feel like they can actually control a market in the game like this. The steps you describe will control a market for, I dunno, maybe a week at best, more likely only a day or two. Once an item becomes profitable, the competition will come back, and you're right back where you started and have to spam thousands of items again. You are doing ALL of the work in this endevour; for your competitors, there's no effort at all.

This kind of market flooding works in the real world because once a businessman is ruined, they stay ruined. Starting up a business, getting loans, what have you is expensive work, and if you go bankrupt it becomes that much harder to start over since fewer will trust you with a loan. In this game, starting up a "business", as it were, is completely free. The method you describe will drive everyone out of a market, certainly; they have better things to craft than compete with your crazed flood of product. When the flood dies down, though, getting back into the market takes no effort at all, so what's to stop them?

In all likelihood, your competitors don't even realize what you're doing. They just see that a particular item is overstocked, and so move to greener pastures, possibly dumping stock first. Once your pasture turns green again, though, there's absolutely nothing keeping them from coming right back. They aren't afraid of you or what you can do, because they don't even know you're doing it. (This all also applies to the guy with "infamous retainers" a few pages ago; I highly doubt his retainers are as well-known as he boasts.) If you can actually make a profit in this way, that's great! More power to you. But don't make the mistake of believing you have any lasting power over the market. The complete lack of negative consequence for failure means that the market will always be open to anyone who wishes to participate.

So-called "crafter PvP" is a joke, and entirely an illusion created by the participants. If you find it fun, though, there's no harm in it! And the buyer market makes out like bandits whenever a shark decides to "weed out the competition" in this way, so they're happy, too!

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

So-called "crafter PvP" is a joke, and entirely an illusion created by the participants. If you find it fun, though, there's no harm in it! And the buyer market makes out like bandits whenever a shark decides to "weed out the competition" in this way, so they're happy, too!

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It is a joke. A very funny joke

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Always entertaining to see folks who feel like they can actually control a market in the game like this....

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I only just started using this strategy in this game, so to be fair, i haven't amassed much wealth yet, but my account on WoW with literally millions of gold on it (made in Lich King expansion) That was actually banned for "selling gold" and then promptly unbanned when they realized i simply gave gold to guild mates and personal friends is laughing at you. I literally owned the entire endgame market, from enchanting, potions, flasks, glyphs, gems etc. Nobody could compete with my volume and eventually everyone just gave up and stopped fighting and i became the sole supplier on the server of endgame consumables. Occasionally someone would try to push themselves into the market, but i had so much gold that i could easily compete at a loss in the market for months if not years and still be fine.

All of that was built using this same idea.

Also, i'm not trying to be rude in anyway, i am simply explaining why some people undercut so massively, yes there are people who do it not realizing why, but there are others, like me, who actually play MMOs to do this very thing, and own the market on something. This is the "character" i play in an MMO, i play someone who owns markets, and has massive amounts of money. And that's okay :)

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Always entertaining to see folks who feel like they can actually control a market in the game like this. /snip

In all likelihood, your competitors don't even realize what you're doing. !

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100% agreed. It take no effort to adjust what market you can cater to. The guy who actually think his retainers are notorious made me LOL as well. Like anyone even looks at the retainer name. Owning a small market in this game where what is in demand is constantly changing and leveling a crafting skill takes little time and effort just doesn't seem in any way efficient.

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

It is quite possible I will be found out for posting this.

But I have made sure my retainers on my server can be recognized by sight, and are notorious. I do massive amounts of selling and repurchase through them, and I always use them to make a point.

Any time someone undercuts me, I undercut them very severely, and I am willing to crash/ruin the specific market we share just to teach them that lesson. I have even crashed a market because of people attempting to purchase from me and then resell with a price fix. I make them regret that thoroughly as well and sell at a loss..

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Really? this is HILARIOUS. I'd undercut you so you'd waste money destroying a market then take things off for a week while it rebounds nad keep doing it over and over again!

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

No, your stupid. Undercutting is one thing but crashing an in game economy for the personal satisfaction of "Whoo! I taught them a lesson!" is down right borderline retardation.

The only thing your doing is making sure the people who don't have the gil to buy items on your server suffer more than they already are because you wanna know what happens after a market crashes?

It inflates ten fold.

We're seen it happen everytime the stock market crashed in the real world.

Once the economy recovers from the crash, businesses jack up their prices in an effort to recover the profits lost, the result is the government being forced to print more money to counterbalance this inflation.

The difference between in game economies and real life is that no extra money can be put into circulation by SE.

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Again.

DO NOT, compare stock to commodity.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

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Not only did you care enough about my post, but you cared enough to mock it up to sound even worse.

Did I strike a nerve perhaps?

To make profit you should keep a cool head. The purpose of my tactics seems lost on you.

Its something called "market control". By controlling the prices, when it inflates or deflates, and discouraging my competition, I end up in control of the market.

I first realized this from a crafter on FFXI named "Semitry", who beat me up pretty good on my way up. I'm sure anyone who career crafted on Midgardsormr would remember this fellow.

He would blast the market with dozens of HQ Scorpion harness to force the price of NQ's into nil, he bought out materials used to level to 100 out from beneath people and skyrocketed their price, stockpiling loads of it that would never be used, all to control the market, make profit off his desperate competitors, and trick elitists into paying 1000% for the HQ product. Then he'd let the market sit and resell those loads of cheap NQ's at a profit.

At first I was angry- but then I realized just how effective his tactic was. He had "market control", he was able to directly manipulate its prices, his profit, and the possibility of those willing to compete with him at all.

So at that point I decided to learn from it. I enter into a field of about 4-5 goods and I use a very similar method, I drive out my competition while stocking up, then make profit off the stock, then drive it higher for even more profit. Others begin trying to hop on board and make profit from my efforts there- and then I start the process again, often demolishing them in the process. Not always, just often.

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Originally Posted by Scootaloo

No, your stupid. Undercutting is one thing but crashing an in game economy for the personal satisfaction of "Whoo! I taught them a lesson!" is down right borderline retardation.

The difference between in game economies and real life is that no extra money can be put into circulation by SE.

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It's "You're stupid" genius. Yes SE could put additional Gil into circulation rather easily. Quests or a quest with a high gil reward.

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So at that point I decided to learn from it. I enter into a field of about 4-5 goods and I use a very similar method, I drive out my competition while stocking up, then make profit off the stock, then drive it higher for even more profit. Others begin trying to hop on board and make profit from my efforts there- and then I start the process again, often demolishing them in the process. Not always, just often.

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And that's when you ask your crafter friends for a discount. Seriously if you're having fun that's great but if you think you are controlling anything you're deluded. It's not that hard to craft things, if the MB is expensive you go ask personally to a crafter.

Lol!! It's a buyers' market, OP. Sorry that I'm buying the cheaper option and not your really expensive one.

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Originally Posted by Dashuto

So at that point I decided to learn from it. I enter into a field of about 4-5 goods and I use a very similar method, I drive out my competition while stocking up, then make profit off the stock, then drive it higher for even more profit. Others begin trying to hop on board and make profit from my efforts there- and then I start the process again, often demolishing them in the process. Not always, just often.

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Good for you, i of course get around "attempts to destroy me" by being diversified and not requiring one thing to sell.