Is this the road they will continue to take with items?

This, OP, is why, despite all the grind and RNG drops etc, I really love the relic quest, I wish there was more like, perhaps relic armor or jewelry that upgrades over patches, would be nice

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Originally Posted by Duelle

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I generally agree.

I hated that in FFXI there was gear that I could buy at lvl50ish that would be viable through most endgame content. It made soooo much other gear pointless.

Here's the thing, I truly don't see an actual difference between BiS and the system we had in FFXI. In FFXIV, you can't just go with a full set of soldiery or High Allagan and be OK. Your accuracy will not be balanced out, you secondary stats will be garbage, etc. The game forces you to mix and match pieces for an optimal build in almost all scenarios. In FFXI, we had "viable" sets. That is, you prioritized Haste, Accuracy, main stat. This isn't any different than what we have here, except that FFXI took longer and you could get that amazing gear at much lower levels.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

In FFXI, we had "viable" sets. That is, you prioritized Haste, Accuracy, main stat. This isn't any different than what we have here, except that FFXI took longer and you could get that amazing gear at much lower levels.

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You also forgot the battle system differences:

In XIV there's no true depth to the battle system because everything either has a debuff on it or it's the same 1-2 rotation. In XI, you had to optimize your weaponskill damage or debuff potency/success rate or to raise/lower enmity and etc, which made it more "complex" in comparison. So you prioritized Haste/Accuracy to build TP, you don't prioritize it for your curing because accuracy does nothing for your cures. With Weaponskills, you had to take into consideration if your weapon is a multi-hit or a single hit - with multi hit you need accuracy but you also want the power behind it.

Then came if your weaponskill is elemental or physical..and so on so forth. So yes you can say "it's the same", but it really wasn't if you truly tried to optimized your play. For example as a Corsair if you didn't try to boost your Phantom Roll, especially without the job present..well..most amazing gear didn't come from low levels, most were actually 50s-75+, it just seemed like it because a lot of good items pre 55 cap were introduced at level 7-30 as it was done to aid in leveling, it just happened that it ended up as some good gear to use even later on because it had either an 'enhance' ability on it or a fairly high stat rating without sacrificing another stat.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

Here's the thing, I truly don't see an actual difference between BiS and the system we had in FFXI. In FFXIV, you can't just go with a full set of soldiery or High Allagan and be OK. Your accuracy will not be balanced out, you secondary stats will be garbage, etc. The game forces you to mix and match pieces for an optimal build in almost all scenarios.

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There's only one situation where secondary stats matter significantly and that's accuracy in coil. The game doesn't force you to have optimal secondary stats in any other situation, as fights are either incredibly easy or they're about knowing mechanics and having your primary stats high enough.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

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I stopped playing around WotG, and at that point, we could easily break down what gear was good, what wasn't, etc based on what we were given. I didn't play COR, but in MNK's case, essentially the same gear was BiS or damn near close for a loooong time.

The battle system is irrelevant, take that out of the context. The concept of Gear piece A is good, Gear piece B is bad because X exists in both FFXI and FFXIV, regardless of ilvl. I think it's fairly common knowledge by now that ilvl =/= better necessarily (see relic weapon) because of things like accuracy caps, diminishing returns, etc. In FFXI, we just called 3 pieces good and 90 bad because they didn't have X stat. It's the same thing, different game.

I know what you're trying to say, but the parallels are there. It didn't make FFXI more "complex", we did the same thing we do here. We know what's good, look it up on a forum, and boom, there's your best set.

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Originally Posted by Vaara

There's only one situation where secondary stats matter significantly and that's accuracy in coil. The game doesn't force you to have optimal secondary stats in any other situation, as fights are either incredibly easy or they're about knowing mechanics and having your primary stats high enough.

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Somewhat agree. Balancing Accuracy, on WAR at least, forces you to juggle gear a bit in and of itself. Secondary stats are not forced, I agree, but you can do things like push phases and use burn strats if you optimize secondary stats as well.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

I stopped playing around WotG, and at that point, we could easily break down what gear was good, what wasn't, etc based on what we were given. I didn't play COR, but in MNK's case, essentially the same gear was BiS or damn near close for a loooong time.

The battle system is irrelevant, take that out of the context. The concept of Gear piece A is good, Gear piece B is bad because X exists in both FFXI and FFXIV, regardless of ilvl. I think it's fairly common knowledge by now that ilvl =/= better necessarily (see relic weapon) because of things like accuracy caps, diminishing returns, etc. In FFXI, we just called 3 pieces good and 90 bad because they didn't have X stat. It's the same thing, different game.

I know what you're trying to say, but the parallels are there. It didn't make FFXI more "complex", we did the same thing we do here. We know what's good, look it up on a forum, and boom, there's your best set.

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While the concept of BiS is the same, XI had a vastly more complicated nuances to consider compared to XIV (like multi-attack stats, Weapon Skill modifier stats, accuracy, elemental gorgets / belts, Magic Attack Bonus, Store TP - and this is just for weapon skills). There's a reason why I carried NINETY (yes, 90!) pieces of gear on my WHM for any given situation in XI. Admittedly, on XI the number of gears sets you have depends on the class you play and how passionate you are about that class, but you can see how that's very different from XIV.

In XIV, "This set does more damage because it has more of this secondary stat"

In XI it's "This set does more damage in accuracy capped situation, this set does more damage in non-accuracy capped situation, this set does more damage against these types of targets because their defense is at this point so my set will get more benefit from attack, this set does more damage because my attack is capped against this particular target, etc.. etc.."

My random comment for the actual topic discussion - I personally don't care about horizontal progression much any more because min-maxing sets in XI drove me absolutely nuts..

Since they love to copy other games, I wonder why they left the Diablo Franchise on the side.

Nothing was more enticing than after so many hours invested, to find 'THE' uber-super-duper-one-of-a-kind Weapon or armor piece that everyone wants, but you are but a few over the world to get it.

Some sold these in real, I wonder why..

Ok so let's put things like this aside (make it so players can't sell it and their accounts)

But please, I know everyone is entitled to get everything from the game since everyone pays per month.

And everyone can beat Turn 9 without having to pay for a run. (The hard part is to assemble a nice group, rest is just mechanics.)

At least make an Event (yes you can repeat it 14 times if you want ;) ) That once per year, it's a Server-wide fight for this Unique loot (not like those in game where unique lose it's sense when you see someone else having it as well as you >.< ) -

I know, server crashes with only Odin..

But if that can open the door to some brainstorming on the Dev side, we would have a little bit of vertical progression.

You can even be less harsh and give 100 or 1000 Items per server, with your wonderful RNG.

I don't know but now getting the best armor and weapons, knowing that it will be put as glamour only in 3 months average.. let us enjoy it a bit more.

ilvl200 soon? No thank you, It feels ridiculous.

Thank you for your time.

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Originally Posted by TheMoonflow

This, OP, is why, despite all the grind and RNG drops etc, I really love the relic quest, I wish there was more like, perhaps relic armor or jewelry that upgrades over patches, would be nice

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Yes, I liked it as it's the only thing aside that feel it has a value. Now SE, do the same with the Armors! ;)

That's what I meant by the battle system differences - They're simply different beasts. BiS in XIV means you can wear that and never take it off until next obsoletion and sadly BiS in XIV is more along the lines of it has your (Main stat), then it has Crit Rate+40 and Accuracy+40, compared to Skill Speed+40 and Det+11. In XI, BiS might be a body piece that heavily mods your Empyrean Weapon Skill, but not so much mods your magic (e.g Blue Mage.) So concepts definitely the same, the battle system just had much more to it in XI because it was "turn based" so more strategy could go into optimization. Even with the introduction of Ilvl into XI and following the more "standard' route of MMOs it's still not completely the same.

Having options is nice, which is USUALLY what HP is for, but VP gives you options that you may not end up performing well because you chose to get rid of your accuracy for skill speed.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

In XIV, "This set does more damage because it has more of this secondary stat"

In XI it's "This set does more damage in accuracy capped situation, this set does more damage in non-accuracy capped situation, this set does more damage against these types of targets because their defense is at this point so my set will get more benefit from attack, this set does more damage because my attack is capped against this particular target, etc.. etc.."

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And I understand that. However, it doesn't change the fact that it's the same thing at the end of the day, and calling for some sort of change would accomplish basically nothing, as this game has plenty of horizontal progression. I don't see how having gear from lvl50 being better than lvl75 gear is horizontal, but I can see why having several i100 sets is horizontal.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

I will let you think that quelling strikes really makes a difference in enmity in a 8 mins+ fight and go ahead. oh and yeah every fight in current end game isn't a single mob with sometimes a few adds coming (T6, T8, every primal but the mog, T9, T5... sigh).

Also, you're trying to prove me wrong with bad arguments. Sure summoners share enmity with pets, but it's still easily noticeable if they do a good work or not. especially in 8 men fights where you can easily check if their DoTs are up or not.

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Whether it does a huge difference or not is irrelevant. Fight of the matter is that it does make a slight difference and that's enough to throw your enmity bar argument in the garbage can.

Summoners DoT makes up for only 40% of their damage. Just checking once every so often if their dots are up is not going to be the sign of them doing good damage.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

Horizontal progression works well with games that have very hard to obtain rewards such as ff11 in the zilart-treasures era.

This game would have to be changed in a fundamental way to allow for horizontal progression.

Is it smart to do for ff14? Probably not.

The game could use more depth to gear such as set bonuses, on use effects, and passive traits on gear. You can have an amalgamation of both horizontal and vertical progression in a game like this.

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It didn't really work all that well because once you got your piece of gear, you had it for years. Not interested.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

And I understand that. However, it doesn't change the fact that it's the same thing at the end of the day, and calling for some sort of change would accomplish basically nothing, as this game has plenty of horizontal progression. I don't see how having gear from lvl50 being better than lvl75 gear is horizontal, but I can see why having several i100 sets is horizontal.

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XI gearing is more complex because the interaction between gear pieces can affect your performance as a player.

For example, you're using a pair of gloves that gives you 2% Double Attack to Weaponskill / TP in. Good. Suddenly, you get a belt that gives you 2% Triple Attack and 1% Quaddruple Attack. Suddenly, the value of your 2% Double Attack piece is diminished because Quad / Triple attack overrides your Double Attack stat (QA > TA > DA > OAX).

BiS for XI is much more varied because when XI releases a new piece of gear, suddenly you need to change your ENTIRE gear set to suit the new pieces that may have "superior stats" but devalue the pieces of other stats, unlike in XIV where it's "slap on the highest ilvl gear you can find" since the performance changes of secondary stats are very negligible compared to the boost in primary stats (mostly).

The concept of BiS is the same, yes, but to think that determining BiS in XIV is as easy as determining BiS in XI is factually false.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

When any MMO progresses, it generally makes old gear more easily available, and makes old hard-to-do duties, less hard to do.

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Any MMO you say? FFXIV must be your first one then. Not even the prototype of all modern MMO's, world of warcraft, obviated gear at such a pace like FFXIV does.
The only gear reset that happened was between expansion packs. The first set of gear you obtain from the first endgame raid still mattered several patches ahead.

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After logging off and returning after almost one year, you really cannot think your gear is still top-notch.

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If you are going to reply to my post atleast have the decency to read what i wrote. Where did i state that i wanted my gear to still be "top notch"? I was expecting to get back and progress at the same pace that i left at, not being handed out previous-tier endgame welfare gear.

Vertical item progression is fine.

What missing is horizontal stat-based progression to complement it.

Its clear to me that most of you play this game as a time sink, nothing else. Personally i'd like the free time i have spent on this game to reflect upon my character development. There is absolutely nothing satisfying with playing as of current system, unless you maybe do a world-first clear of a new endgame raid or something. But many people wont experience that.
Other than that it just seems like mindless running around and doing quests, and this is END GAME we are talking about here. Utterly disappointing.

But hey, if you like it, good for you. I personally dont and probably wont play post this one month subscription.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

In FFXI, we had "viable" sets. That is, you prioritized Haste, Accuracy, main stat. This isn't any different than what we have here, except that FFXI took longer and you could get that amazing gear at much lower levels.

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Note I played right untill the 80 level cap increase, but when I played gear was heavily decided on your build.
Top priority: reach 90% hitrate with sushi, if you can't then you need more accuracy
Second: Haste (for most jobs, but if you went /nin you would want "enhance dual wield" before haste)
Third: Enhance trait (some are situational like "Enhance barrage" while others like "dual/tripple attack" can be used all the time)
Fourth: Attack (much better than just STR when TP'ing)

This is only for melee jobs, mages have elemental skill/magic attack bonus/enfeebling gear depending on situation.
A WAR/NIN builds slightly different from WAR/SAM
A Ranger must decide on a STR archery build versus AGI build GUN/xbow build, but could also make a MND holy bolt build.
In the end, each build can of course have BiS, but you have several different builds to choice from

The main difference is that FFXI had more build per job than in FFXIV, my guess is that they made it so because it's easier for new players.

As for the Hagun/Haidate/Rajas/Suppa comment:
How long did it take you to get this gear?
Haidate is endgame gear, Rajas from completing an expansion, suppa(along with the other 4 earrings) is from the 18 man battle Divine might which wasn't all that easy when it came out. It was gear you worked towards, spending time to get, but ya, using it for several years might be a bit to long

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Originally Posted by morlin

Any MMO you say? FFXIV must be your first one then. Not even the prototype of all modern MMO's, world of warcraft, obviated gear at such a pace like FFXIV does.
The only gear reset that happened was between expansion packs. The first set of gear you obtain from the first endgame raid still mattered several patches ahead.



If you are going to reply to my post atleast have the decency to read what i wrote. Where did i state that i wanted my gear to still be "top notch"? I was expecting to get back and progress at the same pace that i left at, not being handed out previous-tier endgame welfare gear.

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I'm not sure what version of wow you were playing, but every new raid tier invalidated the tier behind it in that game as well. There were occasionally one or two items that would last more than one tier because they were itemized extremely well, but that was rare. Honestly WoW leaves behind gear faster than even ffxiv does when a new patch is introduced.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Not only did it not make other mage weapons obsolete, it was mostly used because it consolidated the need for carrying multiple weapons, in some cases multiple wands and shields - The main reason to use an Elemental/Prism Staff was the 10-15% bonus to x element, however a certain stick aside, your relic/mythic/empy weapon was far superior.

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Yet no wand and shield combo came remotely close to the elemental staves, and thus were non-factors. Even the relics were an absolute joke next to them. Mythics didn't dethrone the staves, and I don't think I ever saw an empyreal BLM weapon, since everyone just swapped between magian staves (themselves an extension of the same problem).

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

Here's the thing, I truly don't see an actual difference between BiS and the system we had in FFXI.

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BiS is more something to aim for in an MMO. It's literally the best possible combination of gear to meet stat goals.

XI's gear system was convoluted because you needed a set for everything your job was capable of due to gear swaps being a mainstay in how everyone played. That's not necessary here thankfully because jobs have combat models that focus on one thing and gear swaps won't ever darken our doorstep. Gear was desired largely because in most cases it became inventory +1 rather than something actually powerful that improved your overall performance. Even the Iridal Staff that was introduced many years after the elemental staves was basically just inventory +7, and to my recollection was for the "gimps" that never got the HQ staves.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

Those ilvl jumps in WoW were a gear reset, there wasn't anything placebo about them. They didn't want the game to be horribly trivialized by old gear in a new expansion and by extension not making it impossible for anyone new without that gear. They also wanted the next raid tier to be useful even to the high end.

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Gear reset would have still happened if you had made Hellfire Peninsula greens roughly the same as naxx gear, as people in naxx gear would still be forced to switch that gear for better pieces once they get past the lv58-61 part of the expansion. The people who didn't raid would still be brought up to that same level and the playing field would still have been leveled.

As such your raiders would clear HFP and start replacing their naxx gear with drops from Hellfire Bloodforge and Zangarmarsh quest gear. Your non-raiders would put the HFP quest gear to use and...replace that gear with drops from Hellfire Ramparts/Bloodforge and Zangarmarsh quest gear. By the time they'd finish Zangarmarsh everyone would be using the same gear, as intended.

Since in FFXIV in a game where you can't switch gear even if an item say a weapon had a special effect on it. Say a DRG weapon had the effect of making Heavy Thrust last 40 seconds. Someone would do the math to determine which of the currently available weapons is the best and people would try to get the one that was determined the best. They would factor in any special effects and come out with the optimal set. You can't switch gear and always have special effects on abilities active like you could in FFXI.

FFXI is a totally different game where you could swap gear any time you want. People had their TP sets their WS sets usually different for each WS because they had different stat mods. People had job ability set for each ability they used, (swap in all your gear that enhances beserk, warcry, might strikes ect). If you were a top tier player in FFXI you were almost always full on items 80/80 filled with gear for every job ability tp and ws gear, as well as defensive sets -magic damage and -physical damage which started to be important later on in FFXI during SoA when mobs started to hit much harder.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

FFXI is a totally different game where you could swap gear any time you want. People had their TP sets their WS sets usually different for each WS because they had different stat mods. People had job ability set for each ability they used, (swap in all your gear that enhances beserk, warcry, might strikes ect). If you were a top tier player in FFXI you were almost always full on items 80/80 filled with gear for every job ability tp and ws gear, as well as defensive sets -magic damage and -physical damage which started to be important later on in FFXI during SoA when mobs started to hit much harder.

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This is one part of FFXI I don't miss at all.

That said, horizontal progression would be cool. Can't gear swap while under aggro in this game so you wouldn't see the FFXI problem here.

I'd gladly spend 300k+ on materia that has a percentage of procs popping up for novus than just a stat increase.

I'm not gonna stress out on gear, since its not gonna help you in bosses with instadeath mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

This is one part of FFXI I don't miss at all.

That said, horizontal progression would be cool. Can't gear swap while under aggro in this game so you wouldn't see the FFXI problem here.

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That problem is why FFXI had more relevant content then any other mmo ever made with literally hundreds of hours of week of relevant (non-vanity) content at endgame.

That is a problem that everyone in the genre should of picked up on. It was unintended when XI was made, but then again some of the worlds greatest achievements were mistakes.

horizontal progression all the way... armor in xi may have lasted forever, but at least all those gear sets you carried had use an value, unlike this game were I have a completly full inventory of armor just collecting dust that even my retainer is starting to outgear alot of it. But... I understand that if they were to do horizontal now with an already known lv cap on the way it would jsut piss alot of people off like it did when they raised lv cap in xi, an like when people get pissed on this game every 6 months. But when we are going to be at a certain lv for a long time i am all for horizontal gearing.

horizontal progression is an oxymoron. What you are actually looking for is item progression where better items come out but the difference is so very small and not noticeable to most players except the hardcore. Like for example in FFXI you had sky gear that was good you had king gear that was good as well, then along came salvage gear, which had some pieces of gear that were slightly better then sky and king gear, but if you choose not to do salvage at all you were fine with your old gear because the degree to which it was better was very small.

I never really liked this about FFXI. People were happy using their 5 year old gear just to stand around in white gate didn't want to do stuff like salvage because their sky gear was good enough. Had to go out and find other people to do stuff with. FFXI became just a chat room for a lot of people until the overhaul with the level cap raise it actually felt like we were doing stuff again getting new level cap gear. But until then the game felt stagnant.

I like the getting new gear conquering new harder bosses each patch keeps me wanting to play the game more.

The problem with the current item progression... there isn't any flavor, any texture or any sense of choice to it. As it stands, a player simply makes the choice whether or not he or she will continue the ilvl grind. If they do so, the options is either coil drops or tome gear. Whoop-dee-doo!

I think the foundation for FF14 is great. Great artwork, great Final Fantasy inspired designs, good mechanics, etc... However, some form of horizontal progression will need to be utilized in order to maintain interest for the long term.

Yes, the min maxers will ALWAYS find the best-in-slot... they always do... but that aspect of choice and the idea of having options provides a layer of depth that vertical progression simply cannot provide. This helps keep content relevant.

However, in order to create that horizontal progression, they will need to make changes to the current class/job system. There needs to be valid reasons why a job would want to have stats outside their job's usual. Obviously, vertical progression needs to stay, but providing a variety of ways to attain a large variety of iLvl 110 gear would be best.

As it stands, there is very little to differentiate multiple players of the same jobs. They have the same abilities, will have pretty much the same stats and play identically for the most part. We need ways to further expand our jobs on an individual level and that needs to be reflected in the gear variety.

By focusing on the powercreep, there needs to be new content with each jump to facilitate the powercreep. Things like roulettes and making quests rely on old end-game content does work... but how long will that strategy work? What happens when tomes change? Essentially, what happens... parts of the game effectively die. The only thing preventing that here are roulettes and the constant reliance on quests to visit old instances.

No, FFXI's horizontal progression didn't always pan out well, but it kept all forms of content relevant for a VERY VERY LONG TIME. Once they upped the level cap... a bulk of the end-game essentially died. There is a reason FFXI is Square Enix's most profitable MMO. There is a reason FFXI pretty much maintained its subs even through WoW and most every modern MMO release where others declined.

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Originally Posted by rwyan

However, in order to create that horizontal progression, they will need to make changes to the current class/job system. There needs to be valid reasons why a job would want to have stats outside their job's usual...

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I think that there should be a way to allow those jobs to take additional roles beyond thir main one. Take Paladin for example. they have access to some of the Conjurer's spells, like Cure, but their mind stat too low to consider using it other than desperation and flavor, they also have Raise but can't use it in battle. ditto for Black mages who can use the Arcansist's version of Cure, Psysick, but again have little mind to use it with.

If we can tweak these classes to be better off healers then we can add horizontal progression that in creases Mind.

Likewise if White Mages have more offensive magics (Aero and Stone III for starters) then they can have a choice of MND or INT increasing gear (though Cleric Stance might mess with that)

As for SUM/SCH I suppose the idea is to compensate for them sharing attributes is to have books that increase one of these stats for the other class (sicne they can use Cleric Stance) having Summoner books that increase MND and Scholar books for INT

Like Paladin, Warrior can also have a subrole. allowing it access to gear that either increases only VIT or STR (or boost both stats, but one will get the better boost) would allow it to better specialize in DPS or tanking.

However part of this will also mean that future gear must be specialized towards one primary stat (plus some secondaries, any other primary stats must be at most half of the first or else it might as well be the same vertical progression again, as the other weapon wouldn't be as good or will be exactly the same, making it redundant and skippable).

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

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I have a hope that Yoshida will either surprise us with a job and class revamp or a new take on sub-jobbing (cross class skills simply don't cut it).

I think materia would be a great start. Right now they only offer boosts in stats. But what if they start adding abilities?

Ex: Free Cure/Psyick Materia has a chance the next cure will be free. Etc. nothing game breaking since its all a matter of chance.

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Originally Posted by myahele

I think materia would be a great start. Right now they only offer boosts in stats. But what if they start adding abilities?

Ex: Free Cure/Psyick Materia has a chance the next cure will be free. Etc. nothing game breaking since its all a matter of chance.

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Stuff like this was used in 1.0 and it would definitely help for sure. In keeping with the current class/job structure, stats that enhance abilities would be a way to go.

I actually like the vertical progression system better than the horizontal one. I do not want to have the same gear for a long time that to me is boring, now if I like the look of old sets of gear then.they would have to add something.that let me keep the look but since they added glamours im.happy. android phone puting periods instead of spaces

I also cant understand the need for unique stats

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Originally Posted by SevValen

I also cant understand the need for unique stats

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Well, let's take the current state of DPS stats as an example. For the melee classes, Skill Speed is absolute rubbish. Sure, it might maybe increase your dps some, but only until you TP starve, at which point you're actually worse off than if you had stacked Crit or Det. As such, everyone goes for the gearset that minimizes SS while maximizing the other two (and the main stat, of course). Mind you, even in the current state of the game, lower ilvl crafted pieces with loads of materia in them can actually be "better" pieces than even ilvl 110 gear, but you rarely see people taking advantage of this because it increases SS (either it's already on the piece or you're melding it on). As such, what should be a viable piece even for endgame content isn't being utilized. The same is true (as far as Spell Speed being useless) for SMN. The only DPS job that uses Speed to any degree is BLM; you'll note that different players focus on different stats, leading to some variety in gear choices. This also used to be the case with MNK when people would aim for a certain SS threshold to maintain buff uptimes. Basically, making more viable stats (unique or otherwise) means more potential variety in gear choices.

I would love some variety (some kind of choice) in this game. There aren't 2 equal equipment/ weapon/ materia/ whatever choices. If you want to be good, you have to stick to one thing.

Other mmos have skill builds/traits for example or different sets etc. We have nothing.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Well, let's take the current state of DPS stats as an example. For the melee classes, Skill Speed is absolute rubbish. Su, it might maybe increase your dps some, but only until you TP starve, at which point you're actually worse off than if you had stacked Crit or Det. As such, rset thatcurrent state of the game, lower ilvl d pieces withyou rarely see people takingses SS (either it's already on the piece or you're melding it on). As such, what should be a viable pitent isn'uff uptimes. Basically, making more viable stats (unique or otherwise) means more potential variety in gear choices.

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gear variety and player individuality doesnt interest me as much as it does as some of you but im not saying deny you guys of what you want I never understood the importance of being a special snowflake in games probably because of my gaming background

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Very few even attempt it due to its shared lockout - Why do essentially experimental content for the same rewards when you can faceroll the easy versions you've been farming for a long time now? So it's hard to really use Savage Coil until they split the lockout when more groups will more than likely be willing to attempt it. It's like back in 1.x, few completed Relics but the reward was worth it because relics used to actually be...worth something:

http://i.imgur.com/i77bMhe.png

This was far more interesting itemization and was actually worth the time it took to do it - Since this game they're only going with Stat+x/second stat+x style itemization..there's really no room for anything special or true 'options", since the options we get usually replaces a stat with something you don't want.

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I want this back as well. Just like in FFXI (every weapon had a unique ability or stat buff to them. Some where even hidden effect that you had to discover). If they can mix this with their vertical progression I would be a happy camper.

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Originally Posted by Gralna

I liked the horizontal progression DAoC had, they never raised max lvl thus allowing max lvl gear to be relevant for years to come.

To get around the whole BiS nonsense they did a combination of stat caps, and putting so many stats that affected your characters performance it was nearly impossible to cap them all(each class had roughly 15 stats including elemental/physical resists that affected them) And after a few expansions there was so much gear that could fit together to give you stats you wanted that a few people just created calculators to assist with gear builds, instead of relying on BiS since there was no true BiS. Also crafted gear while not as good as most end game drops, was still relevant to most builds.

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Gotta wait till level 99.. as Im sure this game is going to have that as a lvl cap. it will come though, we just gotta wait for it.
Yoshi has a 10+ year life span for this game planned out(As he mentioned in an interview). So.. "look forward to it"

But then again I have played dcuo where there is alpt of uniqueness

Ex:1 www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbAh57fjiM4

Ex:2 www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNnnz0vqApo

In that game weapons have unique sttats, like ignore toughness, defence , chance to cause fire explosion, armor has unique stats and abilities , some armor puts a shield around you. Even though there are powers that multiple people because of the way the skill point and power system is not one character is the same. Example a healer can do alot of damage

I have the impression you want a game that looks more than another game. In some producer/dev speaks it was told one of the basics around this game is have a simple system for stats, hope to get link about as long as it was time ago. Asking for a more complicated/refined/whatever stat system means redo the game and I guess it is a no-no.

The same applies to character "level", it has been fixed to 50, and after that it comes the armor iLevel progression, as you have noticed the next two continuation of the story have progressed in that direction. Sure nothing is written in stones, but all we have today hardly will be changed tomorrow.

About have multiple choices for "best" equip, it has been proven it does not adds nothing to the game (it is useful the f2p games only, because cash shop needs and rely on have multiple different things to achieve same result). Proof of that is the example given to us all by the old mmo GW, a game that everyone have real-easy access to best endgame armor, but if you wanted prevail on arena, that not suffice.

Asking to have a more detailed stat system, is as asking the community being more divided between the "pro" who place every single point of stat in "correct" place, and the "noob" that misplaced a single point out of 200, and will fuel more division about how any player thinks what the "correct" place is.

I am against it.

Vertical progression is fine. What is not fine is the explosive rate with which that verticality occurs.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

That problem is why FFXI had more relevant content then any other mmo ever made with literally hundreds of hours of week of relevant (non-vanity) content at endgame.

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Actually, the fact the game was stuck with a lv75 cap for years is why it played out the way it did. Tanaka's team obviously didn't want to deal with the balance issues the subjob system created as the levels went up (non-ninja jobs having access to Utsusemi: Ni, DRK being able to do THF's hate-transfer gimmick better than a THF ever could at lv60, etc). Even the stuff they ended up making "main job only" seemed to be more concessions to game mechanics and exceptions to whatever rules they set out when they designed the battle system.

That said, it isn't something that should be emulated. Inability to move forward because of misguided value placed on gear isn't something that should be encouraged. And I say that as someone who has done numerous gear grinds.

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Originally Posted by rwyan

The problem with the current item progression... there isn't any flavor, any texture or any sense of choice to it. As it stands, a player simply makes the choice whether or not he or she will continue the ilvl grind. If they do so, the options is either coil drops or tome gear. Whoop-dee-doo!

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This points more to the lack of content from which the gear can come from. Granted, in beta I proposed that the primal's loot pools be expanded beyond weapons to actual gear to compliment stuff found in Coil, CT and so on. So you could have something like a breastplate dropping from Garuda with a similar ilvl to CT or tomestone gear as an alternative. Alternatives usually tend to be close to or at the same item level (ie: 3 chest pieces at ilvl110 rather than just 1). This hasn't happened to far which is why some of you feel funneled towards specific pieces, BiS notwithstanding.

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However, in order to create that horizontal progression, they will need to make changes to the current class/job system. There needs to be valid reasons why a job would want to have stats outside their job's usual. Obviously, vertical progression needs to stay, but providing a variety of ways to attain a large variety of iLvl 110 gear would be best.

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You'd essentially have to split the jobs into specs to give them a reason to go outside of what currently works. That would only work with those jobs that have multiple facets, and in doing so you're creating a bunch of balance issues. You also have the high risk of inviting drama and discrimination (my old "STR DRG vs Crit DRG" example comes to mind).

Now if you were asking for more pieces of high ilvl in the relevant tier, I'd get behind that because I agree, giving everyone one single item per slot can get on the nerves of certain individuals. I'm not particularly bothered by it, but that's because SE was smart and implemented Glamours as early as they did.

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As it stands, there is very little to differentiate multiple players of the same jobs. They have the same abilities, will have pretty much the same stats and play identically for the most part. We need ways to further expand our jobs on an individual level and that needs to be reflected in the gear variety.

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So my question is, why is it so important that you be mechanically different from the next player? Aesthetics give you enough individuality without putting game balance on the line. Sure, you might feel special if you were that Crit specced DRG but the moment the theorycrafters figure a STR DRG still does better DPS, you're going to get the boot and all DRGs will just stack STR because that generates the best DPS. The reverse scenario might play out but does not undo this type of problem in class balancing. The devs decided to avoid that problem entirely with the current design, which is why I find it odd some have chosen to demonize it instead of seeing why that decision was made.

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There is a reason FFXI pretty much maintained its subs even through WoW and most every modern MMO release where others declined.

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FFXI peaked at around 800K subs, and the numbers have gone down since then. It's still stable, but has also been around long enough that all that sub money is profit to SE.

WoW lost subs post cataclysm after making a bunch of changes that pissed off people (they made raiding in part exclusive after making raiding since Ulduar in WotLK inclusive, made a mess of PvP, changed classes that needed relatively few changes and further followed the loreLOL decline). Pandaria didn't help because the masses were convinced they were ripping off Kung Fu Panda (despite Pandaren being around WAY before that movie was a twinkle in the producer's eye). So you have questionable decisions and public ignorance/stupidity. Neither of which have anything to do with vertical progression.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

WoW lost subs

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WoW lost subs because we all wonder what in the heck Blizzard is doing with all that money the "#1 most successful/profitable MMORPG" is(was) making. They never add anything unique. It is the same boring kill 10 pigs quests, the same boring dungeon grind and the same boring raid grind. The same awful terrain/environment designs using SimCity MapMaker with some bumps and trees. It's OK for a little while but gets old fast. I don't know why Blizzard has failed to add any more systems than these. It's the same stuff year after year, despite other "less successful" MMORPGs adding just as much if not more content, including actual NEW (and creative!!) systems.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

WoW lost subs post cataclysm after making a bunch of changes that pissed off people (they made raiding in part exclusive after making raiding since Ulduar in WotLK inclusive, made a mess of PvP, changed classes that needed relatively few changes and further followed the loreLOL decline). Pandaria didn't help because the masses were convinced they were ripping off Kung Fu Panda (despite Pandaren being around WAY before that movie was a twinkle in the producer's eye). So you have questionable decisions and public ignorance/stupidity. Neither of which have anything to do with vertical progression.

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If you think the problem people had with Cata was raiding and the problem with Pandaria was because of a 'Kung Fu Panda' hatred...man you have a very skewed view of reality. The major problem players have had with those expansions is how dumbed down and streamlined the game has been becoming. Everything in the game now is about just getting bigger numbers on your screen to a point where they stop meaning anything.(Which is why in the new expansion they are fixing that).

They also completely stripped any ounce of customization of your character and their class from the game to make it so you effectively have zero choice in how you play. Some people claim there never WAS a choice to begin with(but I beg to differ since I usually played outside the 'meta' builds and did far better than those that stayed within because it fit my style).