Griefing with an emote

I'm kinda of the mindset to let these people go ahead and do it if they want. All they are doing is showing everyone what jerks they are. If they want to embarrass themselves, maybe they should be allowed to so we know to stay away from them.

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Originally Posted by BatHead

I'm kinda of the mindset to let these people go ahead and do it if they want. All they are doing is showing everyone what jerks they are. If they want to embarrass themselves, maybe they should be allowed to so we know to stay away from them.

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The psuedo- anonymity of just having your job labelled and not your name is going to make people think they can get away with being immature and there can be no consequences; and for the most part, that's true. I know that I for one, am not going to know who the Lala PLD in ST gear was who stood by my corpse and /laughed repeatedly is and it would be ridiculous to try and go looking for them afterwards. I don't care enough to look at names after a match is over anyway. And I think we all know why there probably can't be names displayed during a match.

Brush it off, and just be on the look-out for sweet-revenge.

Agree or disagree, teabagging (or emote taunting of any sort) has been a standard of gaming behavior since games went online. For SE to take a stance against this would just be ludicrous. And how exactly are they going to police this? Are we going to see "Excessive Celebration" as a reason to kick someone?

Someone said it before: just grow thicker skin and deal with it. Good grief, I can't even believe we are having this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

Agree or disagree, teabagging (or emote taunting of any sort) has been a standard of gaming behavior since games went online. For SE to take a stance against this would just be ludicrous. And how exactly are they going to police this? Are we going to see "Excessive Celebration" as a reason to kick someone?

Someone said it before: just grow thicker skin and deal with it. Jesus Christ, I can't even believe we are having this conversation.

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Let's run through the flaws of your argument.

1. It's ludicrous to take a stand against a standard that has existed since games went online.
Simply because something has existed for a long time or has remained unchanged doesn't necessarily mean that it shouldn't be changed or that it would be a bad idea to attempt to do so. I would cite some obvious real-world parallels but I assume you can come up with a few examples.

2. "Excessive Celebration" is an example of a policy that is difficult/impossible to police.
Simply because something is difficult to police doesn't mean that it shouldn't be policed at all.

For example, we can agree that there are extremes that should and should not be policed, respectively. For example, a player making a fist pump or clapping shouldn't be punished. Alternatively, a player who is delaying a game by celebrating or inciting others to celebrate should be (because we don't know if they're delaying a game to give their team more time to rest [illegal timeouts], time to huddle, time to strategize, etc)

In the real world with sports, this is actually less of an issue because there are "plays" and times in between when the ball is not in play.

In FFXIV's PvP, there is no such exception, because you are always in play and you are expected to always be participating. This means that even delaying a second or two impacts the enjoyment of the game by your team and the opposing teams.

Other examples of "difficult to police" policies: harassment and griefing. We can all agree that stalking someone (sending tells or physically stalking) or slandering someone (for example, making up a story about how you stole gil and shouting in public) are grounds for punishment. There are reasons to punish people even if the policy is vague and has a ton of gray area.

TL;DR: Just because this is a complicated topic and we can validly debate exceptions/inclusions doesn't mean that the topic should be tossed out altogether.

"Someone said it before: just think a little deeper and deal with it. Yahweh, I can't believe you even think these are valid points."

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

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Do you really think we need to put any of the dev's precious time into policing/eliminating this? Really? This is not harassment or griefing. People are literally crying to momma and daddy devs that someone hurt their feelings by doing a victory dance after they got beaten. I'm a teacher by trade and I know tattletaling when I see it. But for the sake of argument I'll take on your points.

1. Innocuous activities that MMO players participate in is not worth wasting the devs'/GM's time on regardless of how long they've been around. This includes teabagging, spamming skills in cities, crafting in walkways, and following people around and /poking them. Can these things be annoying? Yeah, but it's not worth bothering a dev/GM to correct it.

2. You're right, but it comes into a cost-benefit analysis. With all the real problems facing this game teabagging is not something worthy of any effort on the devs part to correct it. Plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

This is not a major league sport and is also not a life and death situation, many people forget this is a game and people are entitled to PvP the way they want to within means (obviously 3rd party programs are not within means). Even if you are being silly and compare the game to major league sports or even the working world, you can scarcely say that anything in life is without 'poor sportsmanship'/'immature'/'harassment'.
This is human nature, there are people who will do this and no amount of descriptive words will change it.

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You are NOT entitled to PvP the way you want to "within means". Sidestepping the obvious lapse in judgment of using an extremely vague term, it's clear that there are definite standards of play for all aspects of FFXIV, even if you're queuing solo and get matched with strangers.

For example, you can't:

• Intentionally fail to perform your job
• Pull all the mobs in a dungeon to the party and AoE them to death
• Disrupt a party's progress
• Stand around and set off fireworks for 90 minutes
• Type out the full works of Shakespeare's masterpieces

These are all grounds for a vote kick. A pattern of this kind of disruptive behavior violates the Terms of Service because it would be considering harassment/griefing.

There are definite expectations of players in PvP:

• Do damage to the other team.
• Heal your team.
• Defend your team with Cover, Holmgang, Sleep, other crowd control abilities.
• Camp or defend a point.
• Push a point or bait others to chase you.
• Scout around and provide information.

And any other function that directly or indirectly improves your team's score.

Performing an emote over a fallen enemy not only doesn't serve a valid purpose, but also prevents you from carrying out the above expected duties. You would have to make the argument that performing the emote somehow disrupts the enemy and demoralizes them, or something to that effect.
TL;DR: You don't have the right to do whatever you want in a party context or PvP. Just because there is freedom and flexibility in what you do, there is always an overarching goal that you must serve in order to not grief other players.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

Defend your team with Cover, Holmgang, Sleep, other crowd control abilities.

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So I should be able to report any Paladin that doesn't Cover me? Cause there wouldn't be any Paladins left on my data center.

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

Do you really think we need to put any of the dev's precious time into policing/eliminating this? Really? This is not harassment or griefing. People are literally crying to momma and daddy devs that someone hurt their feelings by doing a victory dance after they got beaten. I'm a teacher by trade and I know tattletaling when I see it. But for the sake of argument I'll take on your points.

1. Innocuous activities that MMO players participate in is not worth wasting the devs'/GM's time on regardless of how long they've been around. This includes teabagging, spamming skills in cities, crafting in walkways, and following people around and /poking them. Can these things be annoying? Yeah, but it's not worth bothering a dev/GM to correct it.
2. You're right, but it comes into a cost-benefit analysis. With all the real problems facing this game teabagging is not something worthy of any effort on the devs part to correct it. Plain and simple.

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OK, so your argument is patently irrelevant to begin with. Any argument that makes its case along the axes of cost-benefit, value-worth are necessarily unanswerable and not resolvable. What you find to be valuable doesn't reflect the values of the playerbase as a whole. Your points will always be subjective and therefore up for debate. The same goes for the people who raised the concerns in the first place. That's why we're here, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

So I should be able to report any Paladin that doesn't Cover me? Cause there wouldn't be any Paladins left on my data center.

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It's a list of things. It also includes a point that says "And any other function that directly or indirectly improves your team's score."

It means you can do any or all of these things. The only exception is if your doing of those things somehow causes your team to lose points (for example, intentionally breaking other people's sleeps, binds, Fluid Aura away someone out of melee range, etc).

You can read the rest of my post to see how "griefing emotes" factor in to that list.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

OK, so your argument is patently irrelevant to begin with. Any argument that makes its case along the axes of cost-benefit, value-worth are necessarily unanswerable and not resolvable. What you find to be valuable doesn't reflect the values of the playerbase as a whole. Your points will always be subjective and therefore up for debate. The same goes for the people who raised the concerns in the first place. That's why we're here, isn't it?

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I'm just not going to argue with you then. You're right that both of our views are subjective and that value-worth, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. You can give me all the logic in the world to support this position. But that still doesn't change the fact that anyone who complains on official forums that someone else's "nana-nana-boo-boos" are upsetting them is literally acting like a first grader.

What Skeet's saying is true and yet, what is good pvp without delicious malice and hatred? No, i'm not saying be the first one to do it, but revenge is another matter altogether :P Found it useful to keep a mark icon on hotbar for teabaggers (preferably one not often used so better chance of it being there when ya come back ho ho ho~) Kill > sit on face /changepose spam. After reading Atreus's post though...got 3 stacks of champagne.. P-purely for revenge...

soo much tldr

This thread is just... lol. I love it. I nearly lost it when I read someone spraying champagne on someone's dead corpse. LOL. That some good shit right there. Keep it up :D

PvP is NOT a suit-and-tie event. PvP is PvP. It's raw. It's real. It's dirty. Can't stand the heat? Getdafuq' outta the kitchen. You don't go to a pick up game of basketball and start demanding rules and etiquette.. "Can you guys not use racial slurs? Can you please stop cursing? Can you pull up your pants?" uh yeah, try that where I live.. get your dome knocked out real quick. I'm going to drop a cold hard truth on some of you MMO pansies out there, drumroll please....... the world does not revolve around you. People talk smack. Feeling's are hurt everyday. Deal with it. This is SE game, and until they start personally refereeing and moderating the hundreds of frontlines matches per day and catching people red handed - theres nothing you can do about it. It's the culture of MMO PvP and will remain the culture of MMO PvP. Your revolution to make PvP a safer and friendlier place for all the emo-bears is cute though! LOL

Only in final fantasy could a rumour like this start.

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Originally Posted by DenariusJay

People talk smack. Feeling's are hurt everyday. Deal with it. This is SE game, and until they start personally refereeing and moderating the hundreds of frontlines matches per day and catching people red handed - theres nothing you can do about it. It's the culture of MMO PvP and will remain the culture of MMO PvP. Your revolution to make PvP a safer and friendlier place for all the emo-bears is cute though! LOL

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Actually, talking smack, as you say, is a form of harassment and violates ToS. So yeah, if you do so be aware that if the person on the receiving end is having a bad day you might get reported for it and it's something the GMs take seriously. I'm not so sure about emotes and champagne bottles though, lol.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

Actually, talking smack, as you say, is a form of harassment and violates ToS.

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it depends. jus saying a few things someone didn't like isn't going to get you banned. making personal attacks such as dropping the b-bomb and the n-bombs will. or continuously whispering someone on another character after the player blacklisted you on another will. not even cussing at someone will get you banned because SE put the profanity filter to block that, so if the offended player doesn't use it, its their own fault. to get banned for saying something you have to do alot and at that point you already know you're being excessive and crossing the line. the average player who talks smack doesn't act like that so you can talk smack all you want, as long as its not a personal abusive attack.

I've been using Realm Reborn Red as an alternative to /cheer for when we "win" a point. I'd say I hope my opponents don't take that the wrong way, but it'd be too hilarious if they did.

I also tend to /laugh whenever I Glory Slash people off the Heliodrome, because... Well yeah... It's funny to see a group of people coming up and then instantly fall to their deaths. More so when they're only sending up one party and four of them just fell down.

Really hope SE doesn't do something stupid like lock emotes in PvP, it's part of the fun in my opinion. Good thing I'm not a GM, I'd probably laugh at anyone complaining about this sort of stuff and tell them to grow a skin; not a thicker skin, because clearly they have none at all to begin with.

The opposite can't see any emote message, it doesn't against ToS because SE already knew English community too well. This is also why you can't send tell in any instance..

By saying that, it also have to depend on how someone file the complaint to a GM. There are several cases in WoW that GM banning gankers for corpose camping on the PvP server. GM is human, if they are convinced by the story, it is whole different ball game.

Japanese does trying to make an argument to Yoship in regard to spawn timer. They want a system change where if you die you get port back to base and wait for spawn there instead. They don't want anyone doing corpose scouting.

No one seems to have posted anything regarding being banned for this however, so is there something I am missing or is this topic not worth much discussion since the initial post was about being banned for it?

The thread quickly turned into a discussion of personal views.. but wasn't the point somewhere about this being something they banned for? If there is no evidence of GMs banning then the thread would lose its meaning.

I have a macro when I solo people that I use when they're at about 5% hp

/em giggles, "Tihi, you were no match for me, <t>."
/chuckle motion

I don't know if they can see it but I feel like mocking an opponent is part of any game that is pvp
Like teabagging

I get so mad if someone teabags me at halo, but also fired up. It encourages me to play better so they can't mock me

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

I have a macro when I solo people that I use when they're at about 5% hp

/em giggles, "Tihi, you were no match for me, <t>."
/chuckle motion

I don't know if they can see it but I feel like mocking an opponent is part of any game that is pvp
Like teabagging

I get so mad if someone teabags me at halo, but also fired up. It encourages me to play better so they can't mock me

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You are wasting your time. Your opponents cant not see any emote message or anything you say in say mode.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

You are wasting your time. Your opponents cant not see any emote message or anything you say in say mode.

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oh well I still enjoy doing it :D

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Originally Posted by Gor

it depends. jus saying a few things someone didn't like isn't going to get you banned.

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I didn't say anything about getting banned. And you're wrong, the ToS actually states explicitly that using certain language against another person is a form of harassment. Sure, you might not get banned, but that's not the point. The point is if someone wants to be a hot head and run off at the mouth, it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to think that someone taking it personally might report them.

This has been one of the best threads I have read in a while.

For an extra $5 a month this game should include online therapy sessions for people like the OP.

Might sound wierd but I actually miss the tell/whispering. Nothing in the world like getting cussed out after you just ran over someone XD (heaven forbid you do it twice) But teabagging (especially being on the recieving end) just adds a certain magic to pvp that isn't there with normal polite killing. The motivation factor to just wrap your hands around someone's neck on a revenge kill is hugee~ *remembers the good ol days of ballista where we followed ppl out teh zone* This is also why I wish we had names back. Personal, intimate grudges are what give good PvP its soul.

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Originally Posted by DefendPopPunk

I didn't say anything about getting banned. And you're wrong, the ToS actually states explicitly that using certain language against another person is a form of harassment. Sure, you might not get banned, but that's not the point. The point is if someone wants to be a hot head and run off at the mouth, it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to think that someone taking it personally might report them.

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who cares about being reported. people get reported all the time. no one cares about that. people care about being banned.

Glad a few posters understand how teabaggin/jumping on dead players can work well for their team. This type of behavior isn't unsportsmanlike, it's tactical. Baiting a player to break off from his team and hunt down one person? You can prepare yourself for him every time he comes to hunt you down. Especially if you bait a healer into rage mode, you pretty much took away an enemy teams heal support which could ruin their chance for a flag cap.

This can easily be solved by creating in the future a pvp focused server or a server that is un officially named the Hardcore pvp server.

Griefing is unavoidable on the internet. Just a fact that has long been accepted.
Is being a jerk? Yes
Is it unsportsmen like? Yes
Would any organized sports frown on such actions? Yes
Would any civilized military unit frown on such actions? Yes

Not a darn thing you can about it, except get thicker skin and not do it yourself.

I do find the defense of this behavior extremely entertaining. Jerks will build any reason to continue being a jerk.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

You are wasting your time. Your opponents cant not see any emote message or anything you say in say mode.

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I've seen players dancing on my dead body and even heard a laugh emote.

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Originally Posted by FoxNoir

I've seen players dancing on my dead body and even heard a laugh emote.

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You wont see the actual emote message such as A is laughing at B. All you see is laughing animation with sound but you have no evidence that player is using it against you when GM is retreving the log. All GM see would be is "Player A is laughing loudly"

This function is taken away by SE on purpose to reduce number of claims they would receive because of PvP players griefing.

Seriously, people complain about this? Ha, bet you guys have never played a online match of Halo before then.

yea......I can't help but /sit /changepose on some DPS who tries to rush in on my SCH and LB me, just to have me survive (thank you VIT gear), Lustrate myself back to full HP, then DOT them to death.

My SCH just had an entire team ignore everyone but me, trying to kill me, and if i survive, you can bet your life i'm gonna park my virtual ass on them. And yes, i do this alot because guess what happens, they get pissed and focus me down, that's fine, they get tunnel visioned and die again.

Call it disrespectfully, call it rude, call it whatever you want. At the end of the day, it is a game that people are taking WAY to seriously. If I can cause you to lose your cool and win, I am going to do it. Stop getting so touchy over someone sitting/dancing on your character in a game. Do not compare actions taken in a game to have the same morale weight as those in real life.

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Originally Posted by Klive

Griefing is unavoidable on the internet. Just a fact that has long been accepted.
Is being a jerk? Yes
Is it unsportsmen like? Yes
Would any organized sports frown on such actions? Yes
Would any civilized military unit frown on such actions? Yes

Not a darn thing you can about it though, except get thicker skin and not do it yourself.

I do find the defense of this behavior extremely entertaining though. Jerks will build any reason to continue being a jerk though.

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This.

/10char

You know I think we all need something like..

http://wootloots.com/images/loots/dr...views/war2.jpg

OWNED!

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Originally Posted by Narukuchan

You know I think we all need something like..

http://wootloots.com/images/loots/dr...views/war2.jpg

OWNED!

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lol the Flag of Ownership. been so long since i seen one. was about to get me one one time. costs $40 but well worth it.

I view it as a form of trash talk, which is very common place in a lot of professional sports, from boxing to hockey to NFL
Psyching out your opponent can be a useful tactic, and if they are angry they sometimes fail to think rationally.

Dance like the dead is watching.

Lol people cry about this stuff? I swag all over people if it was a hard earned victory, /dance and champagne pop and all. People swag all over me when they win too. It's just how it goes. You laugh it off to yourself and call them a chump or give them a GG. Some losses too can be pretty epic and worthy of victory dancing from your opponent. If it was from a true PvP noob, just run them over and swag even harder over their dead bodies.

It's all a game.

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Ironically you can take advantage of /emote antagonists as well. Most people who do this (especially noobs) usually get mad if you get them back with an emote of your own after killing them. They'll usually abandon their overall goal to track you down and kill you -- you take advantage of this fact, if he's a particularly annoying DPS or healer. It's just one more situation that you can add to your arsenal for more kills.