Combat Gameplay - Ninja

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

the acn was given mostly for the player from the V1 to have something to do, mostly because we had the same class for ages and some had all the class to 50.
they will not loose time and reduce the lore to nothing simply for please you. it's easier to put it tie to the story quest.

other point, you simply ask for a whole retcon of the story so far. people meeting yugiri before 2.1? she just did arrive from doma that was in war, how can she be in doma and eorzea at the same time? seriously, you don't care for the lore, we have get it. sadly that not the case of SE, they will not give you acces to the class without advance into the story.

finally, it's greatly possible that the rogue class will be something create by the meeting of yugiri and the thief guild of limsa... the dojo will probably where you will have your class quest. it's said by Yugiri that she will learn the way of the thief guild and make her dojo for teach adventurer... how can you not understand the tie with our own rogue class.
class are not given freely from now, i think you need to get over it and understand it. for the 2.0 they will only add ninja, for the 3.0 we know 2 more class will come and i will not be surprise to see for the 3.x series a few class pop, this is them way to add class.

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you're to limiting in your thinking...
There's plenty of reasons why you could meet Yugiri. Although it's not probable, you could travel to an instanced location, in Doma, and meet her.
You could meet Yugiri after she comes to Eorzea, but before appearing in main story.
Or...you don't really need her as a teacher at all...actually she's not teacher really...you get all the ninja skills through job stone, you're just doing quests that unlock those powers. It doesn't matter who gives the quests.
Anyone in the Rogue guild, can be your class teacher. I don't see why Yugiri would be Rogue trainer, when she just arrived, as you said yourself.
Although i'm not really a fan of ppl saying *It's the devs, they can do whatever they want* in this case, i'll go with that :) If they want to make Rog/Nin available from the beginning...they will. And i don't see any reason why they wouldn't.
And if they do, i'm quite sure they'll do it in a way, that makes sense, without ruining the lore.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Having played FFXI for 8 years, and having every new job available to me as soon as they were released (by just doing a small quest, though the ToAU quests for COR and such was a lil annoying), I don't see SE making ROG and NIN gated by anything other than a quest or two. Some people may actually buy the game new in order to play NIN, and thinking that SE will gate it to people who have to be lvl 50, beaten King Mog, and also beaten Leviathan HM is very, very unlikely. So many people will want to play these new classes that it makes no sense from a PR perspective to lock them to people who are already at max level and have beaten the main story quest up through 2.2. Think of how many disgruntled and upset new players (and old) there would be. Seeing as how new player friendly Yoshi is, I highly doubt this would happen - lore or not.

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yah, but you know...this isn't wow where everything is handed to you...you gotta werk for that NIN!
(even though ilv 110 gear is handed to ppl almost for free)

Hehe - like I said, I played FFXI for 8 years since it launched in NA. The grind there was so much more than any kind of grind that could exist in this game. Even atma farming pales in comparison to just plain leveling in FFXI (needing a full party to pretty much do anything pre-Abyssea). Even with Abyssea getting my AF3 took forever due to the boss spawns and number of times needed to be killed, and adding getting all the 'needed' atmas via Abyssea bosses....ugh. I was mainly merely pointing out that it makes no sense to make anyone have to finish the main story far past Praetorium (or even be lvl 50) just to play the newly released class/job. From a PR perspective that would be incredibly foolish.

it's not foolish it's normal, the dojo will not appear before the 2.4, then you can't be this class before this... that like this.
it will give new player something to do and look for. and i'm sorry but get 50 and do all the quest to the 2.3 take less of one week... then please stop to make it look like it's tedious.

it's not different than people saying it's not normal to need to be 50 for get the option to glamour...
like said before the game don't stop with 1 class leveled...

Getting 50 and beating all of 2.3 takes far longer than a week unless you have totally nothing else to do. Imagine what it is like for a new player and try saying that to them (unless they are a kid and actually don't have a family to take care of or such). It IS foolish to gate something they are building so much hype about, like a new class/job, to people who have already 'beat' the game. Did you ever play FFXI? No job was ever released there that wasn't available to people who weren't yet max level - it would upset the player base too much.

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Originally Posted by MirielleLavandre

Hehe - like I said, I played FFXI for 8 years since it launched in NA. The grind there was so much more than any kind of grind that could exist in this game. Even atma farming pales in comparison to just plain leveling in FFXI (needing a full party to pretty much do anything pre-Abyssea). Even with Abyssea getting my AF3 took forever due to the boss spawns and number of times needed to be killed, and adding getting all the 'needed' atmas via Abyssea bosses....ugh. I was mainly merely pointing out that it makes no sense to make anyone have to finish the main story far past Praetorium (or even be lvl 50) just to play the newly released class/job. From a PR perspective that would be incredibly foolish.

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yah, that's what i was saying too. ppl would go bananas if they couldn't be rog/nin, from the beginning.
And they are keeping the game simplified, to make it accessible to many ppl. Gating Nin behind all those quests, wouldn't be accessibility.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

it's not foolish it's normal, the dojo will not appear before the 2.4, then you can't be this class before this... that like this.
it will give new player something to do and look for. and i'm sorry but get 50 and do all the quest to the 2.3 take less of one week... then please stop to make it look like it's tedious.

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I really doubt they are going to lock it out since they are probably assuming a lot of new players are going to start playing just to play this class.

Not only would it be stupid from a business standpoint, it's a terrible design decision to make someone play the entire game on a class they might not want to play just to unlock a class they actually want to play even if it takes a week. I mean this would make it the only class that wouldn't have access to storyline quests to level.

Maybe they will lock it out, but it would be a boneheaded decision if there ever was one.

The class looks pretty fun. Will be a nightmare to lvl in dungeons though. most prob FC lvling alliances will be needed :D

That said i hope that in real game the animations and gameplay will be smooth. Because on paper a lot of classes look really cool. but we all know what animation problems we actually have in real life. They tried it there on an empty wold against one mob. In real life the stuff will be different + taking delay into account.

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Originally Posted by Vaer

Not only would it be stupid from a business standpoint, it's a terrible design decision to make someone play the entire game on a class they might not want to play just to unlock a class they actually want to play even if it takes a week. I mean this would make it the only class that wouldn't have access to storyline quests to level.

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There are right now 303 main scenario quests(that's including both Limsa/Gridania/Uldah first quests), even if 2.2 is around the 150 mark, that's a lot of playtime just to unlock that one class/job, which you then have to level.
I know FFXI had a level requirement to unlock any job besides the first 6 jobs. However, the subjob system in FFXI meant that a PLD would start as a WAR till 30, unlock PLD and use the WAR as subjob, thus not wasting time.

They already said they will make all classes obtainable for 2.4 and on without requiring some kinda of endgame grind. They already said they will be making it easier for new player that will be joining in 3.0 in last 3 interviews. I highly suspend it will just be a level 30 quest with a few jobs required to be leveled/

endgame grind, too long, too boring... you do realize that the new player need to learn the game mechanic in a way or another, or when they will be 50... well they will lack the knowledge of them own class for be able to face harder content, right?

from what we have seen from the video, you need to enter yourself each sign for the ninjustsu spell, meaning you don't simply push a button and paf the spell come out, you need to memorize the right order for get the spell come out, while being a melee class that will need to avoid all the shit coming to him. it seems to rely too on position (sadly) that a lot of stuff to learn...
but let's put that a side, even if the class will be available directly without... do the story that explain how we do get acces to it. they will still need to level the other class for get the jobs recquirement for the ninja or maybe even get the cross skill...

all that said that whatever you say, you will need to level up another class, more important, if you want to have acces to all, you need to do the story quest... it's not a grind, it can be boring if you don't really care for the story, and it's far to be difficult.
it's not different of the people crying because they had to get a level 50 for get the glamour available. the game ask to have a class 50. and with the lore as it is... give the rogue like it was normal it's a nonsense!

we dunno how they will handle the transition between the 2.x to 3.x quest line, and personally i will be find this sad if they don't have to do it. but that them choice for later... but right now, get the rogue without at least the 2.2 done... it's stupid and simply spiting at the face of the people writing the story and saying: "we don't care we only want to have our fun... the story is not needed!"

but anyway, it's them choice, we will see. however, i seriously hope, they will stop to care soo much for the new player, the new player experience it's already far too short for what it's needed later, they don't have the time to learn the basic of the game. i have seen a lot of level 50 that don't even know the most simple cycle of them class. the 1-50 it's extremely fast and get the story done now it's more simpler than before.

Looks like the thunder ninjutsu is a basic ST attack

Water ninjutsu adds a 5 second buff required to perform 2 additional off GCD skills.

Fire ninjutsu is an AoE

they haven't show the ice spell, and i have seen utsusemi, but i wonder what it's over the head of the ninja.

There's a view of the ice spell here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5LJUBaug_g @ 0:22 but I don't think it shows the steps to cast. Does the NIN in ff14 have Utsusemi like in ff11? I thought NINs in FF14 weren't getting shadows?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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well you know, there's echo, and buying sands, with marks, and all that...so they want to make it easier for ppl, not harder.
those that don't know how to play their job....well even if they had to finish 2.2 story, to unlock nin...it wouldn't change anything; they would just go from being bad at one job, to being bad nin. you need to play nin, to learn nin, not go through 2.2 story as drg, then learn rog/nin, from scratch. they will eventually work their way through story content, and end game content...and stay bad, or get better...
and i dont see any indication of nin relying on position...they were moving around a bit, to show that some skills are ranged.
If you dont learn your class/job, from 1-50, you probably won't get much better anyway. And there's already lots of gated content, like all primals, coil, many instances. So for the most part, you won't see ppl in those content, unless they have some basic knowledge of their job. But yah, even if they gated rog/nin, it won't do anything to improve ppl skill.

If ninja can be played from the start i will be expecting SMNs to get primals as summons, because well, they can't respect so much a part of the lore and ignore another, it doesn't matter how much new players and alt lovers would like it to be available form the start, it makes no sense and the only way to make it would be changing the story, and that's not happening for obvious reasons.

So no, NIN and ROG shouldn't be playable from the start, what SE does is another story, again if they make it playable, i want a primal shape summon for my smn.

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Originally Posted by Renik

If ninja can be played from the start i will be expecting SMNs to get primals as summons, because well, they can't respect so much a part of the lore and ignore another, it doesn't matter how much new players and alt lovers would like it to be available form the start, it makes no sense and the only way to make it would be changing the story, and that's not happening for obvious reasons.

So no, NIN and ROG shouldn't be playable from the start, what SE does is another story, again if they make it playable, i want a primal shape summon for my smn.

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uhm they have nothing in common...
and if you capped SMN, summoning egis, is part of the lore. Summoning primals is what the beastmen do, and we're killing the primals for a reason. So ignoring the lore, and destroying the world? don't think that's gonna happen, sorry.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

uhm they have nothing in common...
and if you capped SMN, summoning egis, is part of the lore. Summoning primals is what the beastmen do, and we're killing the primals for a reason. So ignoring the lore, and destroying the world? don't think that's gonna happen, sorry.

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Making a secret society public is breaking lore as well, so i'm asking for no sense if more no sense is added.

Don't get me wrong, i think it would be a bad idea having it locked after story, if i haven't tried WoW enough it's because i couldn't be death knight or w/e it was called from the start, but it's the lore they have created, if they can change it to made nin available from the start then they can make primal shape summons w/o being primals, ppl have asked for this, and some left the game because of this, it's the same situation, again this is not about the ugliness of the egis, i'm just saying they already said "no because of lore."

FF14 like gating new content via gil/time sink. Leveling to 50 is fast enough as is. Leveling a 2nd job will be faster.

All Ninja Fate parties coming soon.

I have a few thoughts on this. First off the lore would not fit if you could start the game as Rogue class...if the guild was secret then it is still secret until you get to that point in the story. I can see them doing something crazy and letting people do it though to drive new players though (bad idea in my opinion). They really need to lock this behind story as "good for the game" to limit how many Ninjas are running around (there is going to be enough of us already). Ninja needs to be a reward for those of us that have put in the work and progressed to that point...it should not be a "Give Me" job and not earned. I really think what ever the cross classes are you should also have to have those Jobs to 50 to tightened it up even more. I really hope that they implement this Job the right way and don't mess it up.

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Originally Posted by Renik

Making a secret society public is breaking lore as well, so i'm asking for no sense if more no sense is added.

Don't get me wrong, i think it would be a bad idea having it locked after story, if i haven't tried WoW enough it's because i couldn't be death knight or w/e it was called from the start, but it's the lore they have created, if they can change it to made nin available from the start then they can make primal shape summons w/o being primals, ppl have asked for this, and some left the game because of this, it's the same situation, again this is not about the ugliness of the egis, i'm just saying they already said "no because of lore."

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Nin would first have to be unavailable at the start for it to be a change in making it available at the start....what you are saying and comparing w/ DKs in WoW are two different situations at the moment.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Nin would first have to be unavailable at the start for it to be a change in making it available at the start....what you are saying and comparing w/ DKs in WoW are two different situations at the moment.

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I'm not comparing them because i don't know what the situation was on WoW, just saying it would be a bad idea from a business point, you konw, the bigger selling point of this game is an unmeasured hype of what's coming next, new players and alt lovers would be very disappointed, as an old player i want it to be locked after story tho.

Again, I think people aren't looking at this from a PR standpoint -- releasing a new class/job and then gating it by saying you need to have already beaten all of the main story content, including having a class to 50 and doing HM Leviathan, would be upsetting to so many people that some would quit. Plus, they would lose revenue from people who would buy the game just to play those classes. I believe they will do what they did in FFXI -- rogue will be playable from the start in Limsa, and NIN will be unlocked just like other jobs @30. So NIN won't be available from the start, but unlocked just like the rest.

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Originally Posted by Renik

I'm not comparing them because i don't know what the situation was on WoW, just saying it would be a bad idea from a business point, you konw, the bigger selling point of this game is an unmeasured hype of what's coming next, new players and alt lovers would be very disappointed, as an old player i want it to be locked after story tho.

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O.o that was a comparison you made tho...

I agree that locked it would be a poor choice. Atm though there isn't anything changing or lore breaking about them being available from the start. It's a suspension of story plot however, similar to how DKs trudged through BC content story even though story wise they started in the WotLK timeframe.

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Originally Posted by Renik

Making a secret society public is breaking lore as well, so i'm asking for no sense if more no sense is added.

Don't get me wrong, i think it would be a bad idea having it locked after story, if i haven't tried WoW enough it's because i couldn't be death knight or w/e it was called from the start, but it's the lore they have created, if they can change it to made nin available from the start then they can make primal shape summons w/o being primals, ppl have asked for this, and some left the game because of this, it's the same situation, again this is not about the ugliness of the egis, i'm just saying they already said "no because of lore."

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Oh, so figuring out stuff about the ascians, is breaking lore too?
It's not really *secret* since Thancred was in it, and all the other scions knew about it, as well as limsa officials.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

I have a few thoughts on this. First off the lore would not fit if you could start the game as Rogue class...if the guild was secret then it is still secret until you get to that point in the story. I can see them doing something crazy and letting people do it though to drive new players though (bad idea in my opinion). They really need to lock this behind story as "good for the game" to limit how many Ninjas are running around (there is going to be enough of us already). Ninja needs to be a reward for those of us that have put in the work and progressed to that point...it should not be a "Give Me" job and not earned. I really think what ever the cross classes are you should also have to have those Jobs to 50 to tightened it up even more. I really hope that they implement this Job the right way and don't mess it up.

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If you're a new player, and start as rogue, you're coming from the guild, regardless if anyone else knows of it's existence. or ppl in rogue guild wouldn't be in the rogue guild, cause it's a secret, so they couldn't know about it...:)
And what's so special about Ninja, that you need to gate it, when no other class/job is? why would ninja be a reward, but not sch/smn?
i know it's a bit of a mess to make it available from the start, cause of 2.2 story, but i'm sure they have something in place, that will make sense. ppl have been complaining about other stuff, that didnt make sense, but then it was implemented, and it made sense, and everyone stopped complaining...will be same here. Rog/Nin will be available from the start, and it will make sense :)
Why would SE want to limit how many play Nin? if they developed it, they obviously want ppl to try it out.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

I'm more worried how we gonna fit all the skills on hotbar, for gamepad...

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On the gamepad it's possible to easily switch between two cross bars and with the addition of holding both the back triggers for another cross bar its 40 - 48 slots available for skills. I don't think gamepad users will have trouble with ninja or any additional skills added to jobs, I have a hard time using all my slots as is. xD

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Originally Posted by Radacci

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It's lore breaking, it can be changed, the same way egi shape could be changed , but SE decided not to do it, it is possible but SE should keep their mind or change it for everything.

Edit, forgot a part, i have the same opinion about ROG not being lorebreaking if you start being part of the guild, but nin is lore breaking before 2.4, and we know a lvl 50 class w/o job crystal can be gimp.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

On the gamepad it's possible to easily switch between two cross bars and with the addition of holding both the back triggers for another cross bar its 40 - 48 slots available for skills. I don't think gamepad users will have trouble with ninja or any additional skills added to jobs, I have a hard time using all my slots as is. xD

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well, there's 16 buttons on 1 bar, which is good, but preferably i wouldn't want skills on the D-Pad, cause it's awkward to move at the same time.
but yah, i suppose it will be fine :)

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Originally Posted by Radacci

well, there's 16 buttons on 1 bar, which is good, but preferably i wouldn't want skills on the D-Pad, cause it's awkward to move at the same time.
but yah, i suppose it will be fine :)

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I just put buffs on the D-Pad, and/or anything I would use circumstantially. From there I put all my skills on A,B,Y,X (I use ps3 controller, easier to state xbox control scheme). Also that's what i was referring to there is a total of 16 buttons on one bar 8 which are D-Pad, other 8 which are A,B,Y,X. Your second bar would provide an additional 16 buttons and you can easily switch between the two by tapping RB (R1). So you have 16 spots for skills and 16 spots for buffs/etc. with just the two bars alone. Nice to know controller users have nothing to worry about for awhile. :D

I never thought it would look that smooth, I'm pretty impressed, I just hope it doesn't take 40 levels like DRG to finish a combo.... only thing I'll ever complain about that class, extremely boring to level.

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Originally Posted by Houston009

I just put buffs on the D-Pad, and/or anything I would use circumstantially. From there I put all my skills on A,B,Y,X (I use ps3 controller, easier to state xbox control scheme). Also that's what i was referring to there is a total of 16 buttons on one bar 8 which are D-Pad, other 8 which are A,B,Y,X. Your second bar would provide an additional 16 buttons and you can easily switch between the two by tapping RB (R1). So you have 16 spots for skills and 16 spots for buffs/etc. with just the two bars alone. Nice to know controller users have nothing to worry about for awhile. :D

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yah, i do the same. for drg i got jumps, and buffs, LB on D-pad. Using D-pad skills while run-jumping, works too.
it's def more convenient than keyboard :) aside from D-Pad, and placing AOEs -.- speaking of which, that targeted teleport :)

There are several reason why Rogue and Ninja adventurers can exists during the 2.0 and 2.1 time before Yugiri and the people who followed her arrived to Eorzea from the Far East.

Rogue
As mentioned before in 2.2 the Rogue guild has secretly existed in Limsa for a long time. However, despite existing in secret they still obtain a steady amount of new recuits to allow the guild to continue existing like any other guild.

New players who start out as Rogue, while start out in 2.0 era like any other new character, lore wise they are only a Rogue beause the new character is a select few who have proven to be worthy of joining the Rogues.

Ninja

Well this lore is a bit obvious but most likely the Ninja trainer will be a new NPC that is or once was a Ninja.
Only lore reason for the Ninja Trainer to be in Eorzea during 2.0 to 2.1 story is that the Ninja Trainer fled to Eorzea long before the events of 2.2 either because of the Garlean Empire or for his or her own Personal reasons.

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Originally Posted by Sassychan

Yeah, you and 30928475932875 other people.

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Im really not that interested in ninja tbh. im waiting on samurai. hopefully its a dps not a crappy tank.

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Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

Im really not that interested in ninja tbh. im waiting on samurai. hopefully its a dps not a crappy tank.

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It'll be a tank.
Trust me, I'm Nostrabeltus or something, I predict things about Final Fantasy and whatnot.

I see the mighty Belt Nexus and convey it's message unto the unbelted masses.

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Originally Posted by Kyoskai

It'll be a tank.
Trust me, I'm Nostrabeltus or something, I predict things about Final Fantasy and whatnot.

I see the mighty Belt Nexus and convey it's message unto the unbelted masses.

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But what of the convergence of the zippers?

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Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

Im really not that interested in ninja tbh. im waiting on samurai. hopefully its a dps not a crappy tank.

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It'll be a good tank, heh.


I wouldn't be opposed to DPS, though

Can't wait for creative names made by very creative people such as Naruto Hayabusa, Donatello shadowmaster, Ryu Hyuga, Uchiha Edge etc(Not that there aren't already a bunch around right now).