I obviously know more about your class than you do, play how I tell you.

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Originally Posted by Ulathskullsplitter

"Correct a fool and he will hate you. Correct a wise man and he will appreciate you."
-from a random facebook post

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Pretty much this.

The OP is the reason I don't help newbies. Even if you word it so nicely that puppies and rainbows spew out of every orifice on your body, newbies will rip your face off for offering help.

I thought loldrgs weren't a thing? But then I see OP and i guess they are.

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Originally Posted by OmniEx

I thought loldrgs weren't a thing? But then I see OP and i guess they are.

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While I might not agree with him, insulting him is just proving his point even further.

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Originally Posted by Elim

Pretty much this.

The OP is the reason I don't help newbies. Even if you word it so nicely that puppies and rainbows spew out of every orifice on your body, newbies will rip your face off for offering help.

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I would be very offended by the rainbows and rage quit group.

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Originally Posted by Hanemakikaze

I would be very offended by the rainbows and rage quit group.

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Why would the rainbows offend you but not the puppies?

If a person has anything like "Have you even cleared coil anything?" attached to their "advice" then it is not advice it just belittling the player.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

If a person has anything like "Have you even cleared coil anything?" attached to their "advice" then it is not advice it just belittling the player.

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If the advice is legit, then it's advice regardless. The jab isn't needed, but that doesn't make actual advice invalid. Assuming it's actual advice that is. But some people see a hint of aggressiveness, sometimes where there is none, and ignores it all.

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Originally Posted by ispano

But some people see a hint of aggressiveness, sometimes where there is none, and ignores it all.

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I bet most of the people who are complaining in here about someone "giving advice rudely" saw aggressiveness where there was none.

Learning how to keep a cool head while receiving constructive criticism should be a mandatory course in schools...or something.

Depends. Maybe they're really correct?

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Originally Posted by fanservice

I had paralasys on me for the full 30 seconds. WHMs have esuna by around 18 iirc. We all were sitting around 50% HP because of blaze spikes (and me periodically getting para-stunned, and hit by the add), the WHM shuffled around doing nothing for at least 5 seconds. I was wondering when she was going to medica the entire time. Her next cast was a cure on the tank.

Some people deserve to be called out.

Logic is hard, man.

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to be fair to the WHM Brayflox is the first dungeon where e healer needs to use their full healing arsenal and it is also around the time when MP management is the most difficult.
If they aren't using esuna on you in AV at level 47 that is a problem. If they aren't using it in Brayflox I wouldn't complain too much because it is the first difficult to heal zone and they need practice. Brayflox is doable without any cleanse at all considering Scholars don't even have it available at that level range.

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Originally Posted by Killance

I take advice when I ask.

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That attitude itself is annoying to say the least.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

I always prioritize dps than tanks in pre 50 dungeons cuz any class with decent synced hp/gear can tank all mobs/ bosses.
If tanks start telling me how to play my job while not playing his i'll gladly disregard anything he says as i ran once with a tank who didn't use any defence/ hp buff skills till the last boss in tam.
But what got me was when he said can you not dps and use fluid aura.
I was like speechless, a tank telling me how to play yet he's not even playing his class right.
I trolled him a few times by using medica once and easily ripping hate lol.
On the last boss i let him die and made him rage on about how the group was going to wipe.
As if! He got pissed at the end when we beat it and said
" learn to play your job and in a party "
I was like lol naw just chill

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You sound like a total jerk and I hate CNJs that fluid aura

If a DRG is ignoring the chaos combo completely and not keeping HT up then I will definitely tell them for example. I wouldn't kick them unless they refuse to listen or respond though. This seems to be the majority of Drg's when I am not playing as Drg. They give us a bad rep!

Well, just play the game with an open mind, someone gives you an advice it may not be out of ill will, so it won't hurt to at least try I guess? You'll never know until you tried it right? If it doesn't work blame them all you want or just laugh your way out of it, I am pretty sure it will make such matter much less irritating thus making the game more enjoyable for you. No need to hate people for that, pretty sure most people who are being misunderstood as "forcefully" giving people advice aren't bad people. If they are that bad they would've just kicked you out of the party without a word.

It all depends on how people say it I guess?

"maybe you can try this, it will help" sounds a lot better than "you're doing it WRONG!" or even better "you suck".
If you want to give advice they should be polite about it. Someone who is told they suck is unlikely to listen to you.
And if people are being polite about their advice there is no reason not to listen and consider it. Maybe it is something worth trying.

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

It all depends on how people say it I guess?

"maybe you can try this, it will help" sounds a lot better than "you're doing it WRONG!" or even better "you suck".
If you want to give advice they should be polite about it. Someone who is told they suck is unlikely to listen to you.
And if people are being polite about their advice there is no reason not to listen and consider it. Maybe it is something worth trying.

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The way you present the advice REALLY helps in getting people to follow it. Make it their choice. "Hey, I main this class/job, mind if I give a little advice?" It goes a long way. If they say no, they won't listen anyways so you don't have to waste your time arguing. Win/win.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

Do I believe them? It depends. Here is an example. I am currently leveling WHM. I asked a WHM what cross class abilities they use. They told me, and I questioned them. Not because I didn't believe them, but because I wanted to understand why. I asked about other abilities, and why they didn't use them. Based on their responses, I could then gauge whether I felt their insight was indeed knowledgeable or not. Either way, I didn't automatically dismiss them and get offensive, but rather tried to understand why they felt their way was better.

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we agree, you did question ..and then this allows you to decide. Tell me though, how many dungeons do you even have the ability to ask questions ? not many

Mei

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

It all depends on how people say it I guess?

"maybe you can try this, it will help" sounds a lot better than "you're doing it WRONG!" or even better "you suck".
If you want to give advice they should be polite about it. Someone who is told they suck is unlikely to listen to you.
And if people are being polite about their advice there is no reason not to listen and consider it. Maybe it is something worth trying.

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Thing is...a lot of people will hate you and your family even if your advice is worded nicely. If they even react to someone else talking in the party - most don't.

The problem exists when new players and experienced players get together. The experienced player had the time to learn their class, at their own pace, the new player has this experienced taken from them due to the impatience of experienced players farming. It would be beneficial to both types to experience the game separate, there is no patience for either type, from the other's point of view.

As an experienced player, if you enter a low level dungeon, don't give advice unless it's asked for period, everyone has the right to experience their own learning curve, just like you did when you first started. It is selfish on your part to take that experience from someone, who wants it. You dollar is no more worthy than someone else's.

Secondly, you shouldn't be harassing other players based on parsed data, parses are a violation of ToS, and you can be reported, resulting in negative consequences.

Now experienced players, if you have no patience for other people's learning curve, make your own group of players who are like-minded, and just as experienced. Let the new guys learn the game as they see fit. The fresh player experience, is a one time deal, and not one player has the authority to take that from another player.

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Originally Posted by Spyrit

Snip.

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I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. Learning your class at your own pace is fine, but if someone has information that will help you play better, and you disregard it because you want to "learn at your own pace", then that is selfish to the group because you're making the run more difficult than it has to be.Skills have descriptions, and if people don't bother to read them, then I will step in and tell them how they can improve their class and explain to them how that skill is used. Your dollar entitles you to nothing but the ability to log on to the game. If a tank cannot keep aggro and you could explain to them how their skills work and how to make them better, resulting in individual improvement as well as a smoother run in future groups, would you withhold that information because it wasn't asked for? Same applies to every other job and role.

Another problem with this is that this does not occur exclusively at low level dungeons. This problem occurs more times than not when you queue up in DF, and having a group where everyone knows what they're doing is the exception. Am I going to chastise someone for not mitigating, bad aggro management, bad DPS due to wrong rotation, and bad use of their healing toolset? No, but I'm going to offer my advice (when I fully know what they can correct and explain how) in a polite way whether it's asked for or not, and if you (not you personally, using this in a general term) decide for yourself that you know it all because you're level 50 and are too stubborn to improve, then you are selfish.

Quite amusing that most people think that people are given "gentle advice" and then they "react poorly."

My own experience is usually some random idiot yelling rude words at everyone in the party and then quitting in rage, and once a new party member arrives we finish the dungeon in a swift matter, leaving only one logical conclusion: If we died when the raging maniac was there, but not after he left, it was in fact he who sucked.

"I take advice when I ask."

This is the problem, right here. This is why you are so surprised why people are not nodding to your initial "moral elitist" rant as you expected. Remove this approach and become a better person.

You do realize, those that choose not to listen, is the result of the toxic and abusive behavior they have already encountered? Bullying, to put it bluntly, has negative consequences, those consequences lead to a complete and total rejection of any advice given, even if given politely. A coping mechanism to bullying, is shutting down. And regardless if the advice is civil or not, the person has already learned, the best way to protect one's dignity in a pug situation, is to shut down entirely.

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Originally Posted by Spyrit

You do realize, those that choose not to listen, is the result of the toxic and abusive behavior they have already encountered? Bullying, to put it bluntly, has negative consequences, those consequences lead to a complete and total rejection of any advice given, even if given politely.

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And that's a problem with that individual, not the person trying to help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spyrit

You do realize, those that choose not to listen, is the result of the toxic and abusive behavior they have already encountered? Bullying, to put it bluntly, has negative consequences, those consequences lead to a complete and total rejection of any advice given, even if given politely. A coping mechanism to bullying, is shutting down. And regardless if the advice is civil or not, the person has already learned, the best way to protect one's dignity in a pug situation, is to shut down entirely.

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"I'm going to ignore you/respond rudely because someone else was mean to me." That kind of attitude is counterproductive in any setting, whether it be real life or games.

Bullying is all too real and can be extremely harmful to the victim, but indefinitely shutting yourself down to others is not the answer, and neither is it healthy.

This reminds me of that LB thread and some people choosing not to LB because a party member typed "lb" in the chat.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

I always prioritize dps than tanks in pre 50 dungeons cuz any class with decent synced hp/gear can tank all mobs/ bosses.
If tanks start telling me how to play my job while not playing his i'll gladly disregard anything he says as i ran once with a tank who didn't use any defence/ hp buff skills till the last boss in tam.
But what got me was when he said can you not dps and use fluid aura.
I was like speechless, a tank telling me how to play yet he's not even playing his class right.
I trolled him a few times by using medica once and easily ripping hate lol.
On the last boss i let him die and made him rage on about how the group was going to wipe.
As if! He got pissed at the end when we beat it and said
" learn to play your job and in a party "
I was like lol naw just chill

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As a healer myself, I think you're really being an a**hole.

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Originally Posted by Odett

snip.

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Like it or not, that is a coping mechanism, and it's highly flawed to blame the coping mechanism, rather than dealing with the toxic behavior that started it. Bullying is a form of abuse, period. People cope in different ways, you don't validate the abuse, by attacking the coping mechanism, that solves nothing. Preservation of human dignity in game or real life, is a necessity for the well being of humans. Any expert in behavior biology will tell you this. Humans utilize the social mode when they feel safe in any environment virtual or real, this is scientifically proven.

If you want social mode in a human, break the ice with humor, pleasant conversation, make a human feel safe, don't engage an environment of hostility, you won't get anywheres.

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Originally Posted by Spyrit

Like it or not, that is a coping mechanism, and it's highly flawed to blame the coping mechanism, rather than dealing with the toxic behavior that started it. Bullying is a form of abuse, period. People cope in different ways, you don't validate the abuse, by attacking the coping mechanism, that solves nothing. Preservation of human dignity in game or real life, is a necessity for the well being of humans. Any expert in behavior biology will tell you this. Humans utilize the social mode when they feel safe in any environment virtual or real, this is scientifically proven.

If you want social mode in a human, break the ice with humor, pleasant conversation, make a human feel safe, don't engage an environment of hostility, you won't get anywheres.

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It doesn't matter though. Is the person who harassed them in the first place wrong? Sure. But the problem is that the way they're coping is causing problems for MORE people. It's not validating the abuse in the slightest, it's about not continuing the problem by dealing with it properly. Just because they are a victim, doesn't mean they are free from repercussion and/or criticism.

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Originally Posted by ispano

snip

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Humans have three modes, when we feel threatened (and we feel threatened when we don't feel safe) we will only engage one of two, reptilian thinking ( shutting down, unresponsiveness) lower mammalian, fight or flight, or the higher mammalian (primate) social mode, social mode cannot be engaged, unless the human feels safe in an environment, if the environment to a player has been proven to be hostile, one of two modes will be engaged, unless the other players in the group prove otherwise, you can't take the environment out of the human, past experience is what evolves humans, even on a minor scale.

I'll give you an example player A, had 5 dungeon runs, in every run there was infighting and hostility, not always directed at player A, some, but not always, so this player has decided to either shut down, or flight or fight, for every pug run they do. Player B, has 2 runs that were hostile, 3 that were pleasant, yet when engaging a pug, they are in fight or flight mode, until proven otherwise. Player C had 5 very pleasant groups, is willing to take advice and carry it out and betters themselves as a player.

The moral of that scenario, humans can't learn when they feel threatened, not even in the least, humans are only capable of learning while in social mode, and there's no getting around that.

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Originally Posted by Spyrit

Humans have three modes, when we feel threatened (and we feel threatened when we don't feel safe) we will only engage one of two, reptilian thinking ( shutting down, unresponsiveness) lower mammalian, fight or flight, or the higher mammalian (primate) social mode, social mode cannot be engaged, unless the human feels safe in an environment, if the environment to a player has been proven to be hostile, one of two modes will be engaged, unless the other players in the group prove otherwise, you can't take the environment out of the human, past experience is what evolves humans, even on a minor scale.

I'll give you an example player A, had 5 dungeon runs, in every run there was infighting and hostility, not always directed at player A, some, but not always, so this player has decided to either shut down, or flight or fight, for every pug run they do. Player B, has 2 runs that were hostile, 3 that were pleasant, yet when engaging a pug, they are in fight or flight mode, until proven otherwise. Player C had 5 very pleasant groups, is willing to take advice and carry it out and betters themselves as a player.

The moral of that scenario, humans can't learn when they feel threatened, not even in the least, humans are only capable of learning while in social mode, and there's no getting around that.

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And yet, I and other people i've seen don't fit the mold you just described. And I don't just mean that I don't lock up in the first and second example, I mean other people who "shut down" even in the third example. What you're describing is far more simple than how our minds actually work.

Not even going to lie, the only people I know who complain of this are absolutely terrible and are over-reacting to valid criticism. Not once has someone "tried to tell me how to play my job", with the exception of your standard guy who gets knocked off Titan EX then wants to know why I couldn't heal through his death. lol

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Originally Posted by Killance

Your rotation is wrong, why do Dragoons never listen and always die?

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So, umm, what's your rotation?

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Originally Posted by AlyssaFhey

"DRG LB"

^I get this all the time. Super annoying. I know when to lb. It's even worse when they say it and IT'S DEFINITELY NOT the right time to lb. I.e. Brayflox, to skip big bomb phase, people tell me to lb immediately(wrong time), you're suppose to start lb when his 'sprint' comes up.

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I also do the "O" in Gobbie machine on the health bar indicator.

There's a couple different things going on here, I think. It is possible that the OP meant "Someone in the party tried to give me bad advice and he did it rudely." (Though OP's responses lead me to believe it's more "Some guy told me what to do and I didn't like it.") It can happen when a player THINKS they know all about a job they've never leveled. Since a number of months have passed since the start of game, many people have leveled multiple classes and perhaps CAN give good advice even if they are not playing that class in that particular dungeon. If I'm healing a dungeon and see a THM/BLM using Fire 2 or Bliz 2 on everything, I will (gently) explain what the spell does and why they should perhaps use a different rotation because I main BLM (and I'll accept suggestions; I'm ALWAYS learning!)

Rudeness sucks and isn't helpful. I don't know why some players just show their hind side and criticize only with things like "Uninstall the game!" Does it really hurt them to slow down for a moment and take time to offer good advice? (I'm guessing yes.)

Sometimes folks DO offer bad advice, shrug it off. If they offer good advice though, please listen... ><'

I think the answer is really simple:

If someone is doing something incorrectly, which happens, and you feel the need to tell them, do it politely. And I mean really put on the politeness. This is because it can be hard to tell tone over text. Add emotes to show you're not angry or anything, just trying to help.

On the other side, be prepared to accept help in that form. Don't think that they only play 1 job, because much of the player-base plays multiple jobs. They may have had experiences on the job you currently are playing as that really helped them out and want to share it.

I find excuses like, they didn't tell me nicely, I didn't ask for advice, or I can play the game how I want to, purely catering to your own ego... If advice is given, consider it. If someone said to me "Hey SCH you are the worst healer I've ever had in Ifrit EX, you are killing us with that debuff" (yes I'm horrible at making insults), my ego might be bruised but I better pay attention to what they said.

I had one time where a paladin wasn't holding threat very well so I said flash is to generate aoe threat and then they used it and everything was fine. I think that's the only time I bothered.

I did have someone try to tell me something that was blatantly wrong.

Again...if you're doing a lv50 dungeon/raid/roulette/etc...means you've been playing that job for 50-f***ing-levels.
By that time you should have "at least" some clue as how your class works, and you recognize insightful advice from bad advice at plain sight.

White Mage: "Hey PLD, please don't overwrite my stoneskin with yours" <---- insightful advice since PLD might not know/forgot White Mage gets a passive buff. Recognizable at the moment or after a few hits on your stoneskin.
Warrior: "Hey DGN, Phlebotomize is a waste of time" <---- stupid advice and you'll also recognize it at the moment, ignore advice.

Trust me I hate that crap also, I am fighting the last boss in bray hard mode, he is yelling at me to LB at 50%

I don't listen and kill the boss, he continues to yell about it, I straight tell him, I use LB when boss is near death so the bomb don't spawn he calls me a idiot and leaves.

Everyone else laughs at the guy, though yeah I see what you mean, wish people would play their own job, I know what I am doing.