Why I don't like the idea of paying for extra retainers.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

This, my friends, is what we call a logical fallacy. There is no precedent for charging extra for classes and the game was not designed with that in mind.

The exact opposite is true for charging extra for retainers. In 1.0 they cost $1/month, had less storage, and also were planned to be able to level and do stuff for you.

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You, my friend, lost the point completely. I'm not saying that SE will do that, nor that I care if such and such MMO did whatever. What I'm saying is that, the same way as some people consider it viable to make a new character to avoid the 2$/month for a retainer and consider that just a mere convenience, the same can be said about the example that I gave. So, in the end, it all falls on where do we draw the line and why one is acceptable and the other not (and no, having a precedent doesn't count).

If they can only be used for storage I don't really care, I can manage my inventory without having more of them.

If they are full retainers it is paying for an advantage on market slots alone. With how easily venture tokens can be obtained it would be another advantage there as well.

People using multiple accounts are also a tiny minority. You also can't freely throw items/gear/whatever to other characters on 1 account by yourself either.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

The exact opposite is true for charging extra for retainers. In 1.0 they cost $1/month, had less storage, and also were planned to be able to level and do stuff for you.

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The key word here is planned. It never went live.

I am really annoyed that they are adding this ''feature'' to the game. An extra retainer should NOT cost an extra 2 dollars a month, what a slap in the face Square. The day that I am overwhelmed because I have no space, is the day that I cancel my subscription. I don't even know why this was considered.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

As has been said hundreds of times in this thread. Based on SE's history with FFXI, nothing. Calm down.

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I bet you also believed them when they said FC housing would be much more affordable too lol. This is FFXIV, not FFXI or 1.0 or any other game.

As a Legacy jerk that only pays a little more than $40 for 6mo of service I am absoultely not plussed about paying $2-4 a month to the game I love to have additional functionality that requires extra server processing and storage to provide.

That this was coming wasn't a surprise, either. Tanaka was talking about it before the 1.0 launch, even revealing the pricing we know now.

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Originally Posted by BotenAnna

As a Legacy jerk that only pays a little more than $40 for 6mo of service I am absoultely not plussed about paying $2-4 a month to the game I love to have additional functionality that requires extra server processing and storage to provide.

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Maybe they should just bump all the legacy members price up so everyone can have free retainers. S.E should of never offered Legacy status in the first place goofed it up.

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

I bet you also believed them when they said FC housing would be much more affordable too lol. This is FFXIV, not FFXI or 1.0 or any other game.

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They are now
The housing areas are filling up, all L houses are as good as sold out (on legacy servers).

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Originally Posted by Doo

Maybe they should just bump all the legacy members price up so everyone can have free retainers. S.E should of never offered Legacy status in the first place goofed it up.

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It is a reward because we paid at least for 3 month for 1.0
Other solution to get retainers for free would be to sell each extra character slot for 3$/month again and keep only the first character slot for free. Once a new race get implemented, buy a Fantasia or pay for a new charcter slot

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

The key word here is planned. It never went live.

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So any feature that was planned for 1.0 but never launched is automatically horrible? Guess we should be complaining about Ventures in the first place. And forget about Musketeer, it must mean the end of the game as we know it if they ever get around to implementing that!

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Originally Posted by Mandudez

I bet you also believed them when they said FC housing would be much more affordable too lol. This is FFXIV, not FFXI or 1.0 or any other game.

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Housing is perfectly affordable as it is right now. Your expectations may not have been met, but if you have a small FC, a small house is perfectly fine and quite cheap.

This may not be 1.0, but the plans they had for content and features in 1.0 still carried over.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Maybe they should just bump all the legacy members price up so everyone can have free retainers. S.E should of never offered Legacy status in the first place goofed it up.

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without Legacy (ie. people paying for 1.0) there would be no 2.0 so actually you can say thank you to us :D

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

So any feature that was planned for 1.0 but never launched is automatically horrible? Guess we should be complaining about Ventures in the first place. And forget about Musketeer, it must mean the end of the game as we know it if they ever get around to implementing that!



Housing is perfectly affordable as it is right now. Your expectations may not have been met, but if you have a small FC, a small house is perfectly fine and quite cheap.

This may not be 1.0, but the plans they had for content and features in 1.0 still carried over.

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You misunderstand me. I KNEW that housing would be much more expensive than the masses thought it would be and planned accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Quesse

without Legacy (ie. people paying for 1.0) there would be no 2.0 so actually you can say thank you to us :D

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2.0 is a as different of a game as FFXI in my opinion. I don't like having planned options for 1.0 being assumed to be implemented in this current incarnation of the game.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

So any feature that was planned for 1.0 but never launched is automatically horrible? Guess we should be complaining about Ventures in the first place. And forget about Musketeer, it must mean the end of the game as we know it if they ever get around to implementing that!

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This is why using logical fallacies is a moronic thing to do.

Retainers being charged for was planned early on and then indefinitely put on hold until now. 1.0 also had a much smaller player base to be vocal about the opposition of buyable advantages.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

This is why using logical fallacies is a moronic thing to do.

Retainers being charged for was planned early on and then indefinitely put on hold until now. 1.0 also had a much smaller player base to be vocal about the opposition of buyable advantages.

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As I've explained plenty of times now. Unless the success rate on the top tier "exclusive" venture items is 1%, then the advantage will only last a month or two.

At the same time, if the success rates are that low, you are also throwing your money away because more often than not you get nothing for those extra 2 retainers.

Edit: Either way, there's been enough balking at the idea on the forums in the last 3 days that, even if they did have plans to monetize other items/services, they sure as hell won't do it now. You would have been better served to speak up against the people who rallied for purchasable fantasia, though.

Charging for retainers was planned for the original 1.0 including a leveling system that went unused yes, but they did double the previously announced fee and they only increased their inventory by 25 slots in ARR, so not really enough to justify the extra buck. The main issue here is we can't mail items to alts and this makes the RMT excuse come out as dishonest to try and hide a cash grab, there's also the issue retainer levels reset each time you change their classes so you can't really cover all 4 venture types on a single character, although technically this won't be a major issue if the rare items are tradable instead of U/U with the help of a trusty FC bank even with the inconvenience of leveling an alt, at least for people with multiple alt slots but it'll also be an issue for people who only pay for one character. IIRC there was some sort of plan for a mega retainer to transfer items between multiple characters in a server, though it might have misinterpreted, again it was debunked with the good old RMT excuse, even though they're still running around shouting and telling every day.

personally I see this as just another excuse for them not to allow us to add our alts to our own friends list so we can use them as mules ~rolls eyes~
Yoshi-P mentioned them looking into allowing us to add our alts to our friends list once maybe twice then never again.
now it looks like the answer is.
what? you want to friend your alts? never gonna happen

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Originally Posted by Quesse

without Legacy (ie. people paying for 1.0) there would be no 2.0 so actually you can say thank you to us :D

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hate to burst your bubble but they planned 2.0 long before they returned 1.0 to a pay to play system. they were using that extra money to put into the planning for 2.0 sure but it was not required, they already had a budget for it.

As for those of you that think features planned for 1.0 making it into 2.0 is bad. Hate to tell you this but they will add features and content they feel is still relevant
do I like the idea of pay by the month retainers? hell no. I think its a bad idea but once SE has their minds made up to attempt something they will do it regardless of what anyone else thinks(I.E. taking 1.0 out of beta years before it was ready, thus making 2.0 needed for them to save face)

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Originally Posted by Quesse

without Legacy (ie. people paying for 1.0) there would be no 2.0 so actually you can say thank you to us :D

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You guys would of been playing it regardless. FFXI was probably more crucial to FFXIV so I thank that great game.

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Originally Posted by Quesse

without Legacy (ie. people paying for 1.0) there would be no 2.0 so actually you can say thank you to us :D

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This is what legacy players actually believe.

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Originally Posted by Eriatarka12

This is what legacy players actually believe.

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its a half truth. I'm sure quite a few ideas that 1.0 players came up with have made it into the game.

however, dropping dalamud onto eorzea was ultimately square's decision alone.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

its a half truth. I'm sure quite a few ideas that 1.0 players came up with have made it into the game.

however, dropping dalamud onto eorzea was ultimately square's decision alone.

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They were going to re-make the game to attempt to regain lost profits and salavage their reputation no matter what. This delusion that some legacy players have that they are the only reason 2.0 exists is ridiculous and an illusion to make themselves feel more important.

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Originally Posted by Eriatarka12

They were going to re-make the game to attempt to regain lost profits and salavage their reputation no matter what. This delusion that some legacy players have that they are the only reason 2.0 exists is ridiculous and an illusion to make themselves feel more important.

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So we have the legacy players to thank for the monthly charge for extra retainers by their logic.

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Originally Posted by Eriatarka12

They were going to re-make the game to attempt to regain lost profits and salavage their reputation no matter what. This delusion that some legacy players have that they are the only reason 2.0 exists is ridiculous and an illusion to make themselves feel more important.

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I'm not gonna say legacy players are "the only reason", but is truth that we wouldn't have 2.0 if legacy players hadn't paid. On January 2012 Yoshida said that they couldn't afford to design/implement 2.0 for free anymore and because of that they had to charge for 1.0 (with a smaller fee as compensation). So yeah, is not the only reason, but without legacy players paying for 1.0 we wouldn't have 2.0

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Originally Posted by Doo

FFXI was probably more crucial to FFXIV so I thank that great game.

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I'd like to think that 10 years of my subscription to XI, my sub to XIV 1.0 and now ARR has been helping in some way, yes. I'm not gonna use my legacy status as some sort of boast and I never have. My longevity with SE's MMOs doesn't give me anymore entitlement than a new player and I feel it shouldn't.

The ppl that are and the ppl carry a grudge against legacy are on the same level imo. Counter-productive.

First it's the retainers then they monetize the fantasia then they add X and do you know what you have then.

A friggin' subscription based MMO with a cash shop in it!!!

In no way is that at all acceptable. They are using YOUR sub money, not to add content but to create more stuff for you to buy.
That's called stealing.

Prices are fixed, they are set at a given point in time with some currency exchange at that time to have the base price set, then you add to those taxes, generally the highest zone will set the standard, here where I live our VAT is only 7.5% but we pay the same price then someone that lives in France nearly 13euros per month, then to it you add the cost of use, a country will have higher price if less player play the game, and once more the one that uses the less will set the standard for the others, then shipping cost and seller margin and the rest , and you reach the finaly purchase price, which then says for some is expensive based on their cost of living in their country and others is cheap based on the cost of living in their country. For me Eur 13 isnt much, isnt even the cost of a lunch, barely a sandwich. For someone living in Spain, it will be very costly, becasue with EUR 13 they buy a full meal with dessert included. So comparing prices from a country with another is just impossible. Mei

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Originally Posted by Quesse

without Legacy (ie. people paying for 1.0) there would be no 2.0 so actually you can say thank you to us :D

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Hmm, no
Without payment there would have not be a 1.20-1.23 and no legacy accounts, but ARR would be still there.
They started the payment to keep 1.0 running until the planned end.

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Originally Posted by Seif

First it's the retainers then they monetize the fantasia then they add X and do you know what you have then.

A friggin' subscription based MMO with a cash shop in it!!!

In no way is that at all acceptable. They are using YOUR sub money, not to add content but to create more stuff for you to buy.
That's called stealing.

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Okay I can understand the negativity towards selling retainers if I try really hard, but selling Fantasia potions or possibly Namingway cards has NO NEGATIVE EFFECTS on anyone. Other games would not let you change appearance or name at any time whatsoever, so if you could pay for it to do it if you REALLY want to, that would be great. It in no way gives anyone any edge, it's purely aesthetic.

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Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

but selling Fantasia potions or possibly Namingway cards has NO NEGATIVE EFFECTS on anyone.

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Not quite. Here is an example of worst case: i'm a dick and i steal items from my FC and leave. Use a fantasia, use a namigway card and bam, "new character", i can join the fc and be a dick again.

Fantasia itself may be "dangerous" since it changes the look of your character, but you can be recognized by your name. If you can change your name too.....

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Originally Posted by Merle

Not quite. Here is an example of worst case: i'm a dick and i steal items from my FC and leave. Use a fantasia, use a namigway card and bam, "new character", i can join the fc and be a dick again.

Fantasia itself may be "dangerous" since it changes the look of your character, but you can be recognized by your name. If you can change your name too.....

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Have some sort of ID code tied to a character that you can find with search and also block and ban from things.

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Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

Have some sort of ID code tied to a character that you can find with search and also block and ban from things.

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(I bet there is one already). I know, i was trying to say these kind of items may be dangerous without control/security. If we have control/security, no prob :3

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Originally Posted by Merle

Not quite. Here is an example of worst case: i'm a dick and i steal items from my FC and leave. Use a fantasia, use a namigway card and bam, "new character", i can join the fc and be a dick again.

Fantasia itself may be "dangerous" since it changes the look of your character, but you can be recognized by your name. If you can change your name too.....

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Fantasia will probably cost 15 bucks considering you can change your WHOLE appearance. Namingway will probably not be implemented. Either way I am unsure who would pay 15 bucks just to be a dick :/. You can only do that to an FC if he is a high ranking officer. ( another words has to work his/her way up before even attempting to be a "dick".

If the FC does the right protocol, chances of this happening are slim.

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Originally Posted by Merle

Not quite. Here is an example of worst case: i'm a dick and i steal items from my FC and leave. Use a fantasia, use a namigway card and bam, "new character", i can join the fc and be a dick again.

Fantasia itself may be "dangerous" since it changes the look of your character, but you can be recognized by your name. If you can change your name too.....

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Or.. the person who leads your FC could actually sit down and take the time to read all about the permissions he/she has and assign them appropriately. That's what I did. Everyone has full access in my FC except to withdraw gil, but ever since we got our house we don't have gil in the bank anymore. What exactly can people steal in this game that is so valuable? A few stacks of HQ Snurble Tufts?

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Originally Posted by Seif

First it's the retainers then they monetize the fantasia then they add X and do you know what you have then.

A friggin' subscription based MMO with a cash shop in it!!!

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Monetize what? It was requested by players and they wanted to pay.

Did you miss the 152 page thread on the subject?

Sell Fantasia of Mogstation

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Fantasia will probably cost 15 bucks considering you can change your WHOLE appearance. Namingway will probably not be implemented. Either way I am unsure who would pay 15 bucks just to be a dick :/. You can only do that to an FC if he is a high ranking officer. ( another words has to work his/her way up before even attempting to be a "dick".

If the FC does the right protocol, chances of this happening are slim.

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Also, the Free Company could probably try reporting the person (not sure if taking items from FC chest and leaving is reportable?), and the GM would surely be able to find the person by their old character name.

btw - I want Namingway!! *_* just for a slight change to surname, but I can see it would be a pain to keep track of people if they keep changing names, so I'm maybe against that overall.

Anyway, let's stay on topic!! :P

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Originally Posted by Merciless

2. Another point a lot of players make is that in FFXI people paid extra all the time for the storage space in the form of mules. I would argue that was because the subscription model was set up with that in mind. Here the "Standard" subscription includes 8 characters which is plenty of storage and includes 16 retainers in total (once you unlock them for every character). But there is no easy way to transfer these items between characters without some middleman or FC chest. We're basically being asked to pay a $2 monthly convenience fee to save us from having to transfer items back and fourth between our characters.

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I think you have the wrong idea about the fees here. First of all, the "Standard" fee is not $15. People need to stop saying this. It's $12 (Legacy $10). The game actively encourages you not to have more than 1 character. Which is fine, you can have every job on 1 character. If you really feel you need the extra storage, they are offering you 2 more retainers for $2 a month which means $12-$14, still below your "Standard". I don't know why you would need 16 retainers for $3/month vs 2 for $2. The inventory is more manageable than you give it credit for being.

You are missing the point. The truth is in just a few months this game will have a working cash shop with at least 3 products already confirmed. This will just continue meanwhile all these things that could have been truly meaningful quest rewards are now only for those who pay even more than just a sub.

Meanwhile the only thing that the players are rewarded is just mounts and +1 gear.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

I think you have the wrong idea about the fees here. First of all, the "Standard" fee is not $15. People need to stop saying this. It's $12 (Legacy $10). The game actively encourages you not to have more than 1 character. Which is fine, you can have every job on 1 character. If you really feel you need the extra storage, they are offering you 2 more retainers for $2 a month which means $12-$14, still below your "Standard". I don't know why you would need 16 retainers for $3/month vs 2 for $2. The inventory is more manageable than you give it credit for being.

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The standard fee *is* the one that costs 15$. It's named "standard" and has what a sub in almost any other P2P game -and even some B2P/F2P- would give you (that is, more than one character per server). Besides being able to buy extra storage with in-game currency, of course.

The cheaper one (13$) has a discount because it's below the usual standards that you find in other games. This game doesn't exist in a void, it has competence.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

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Someone already replied on how SE themselves name the $15 plan the standard subscription tier so I'll leave that alone.

As I said I don't care about this from an inventory space standpoint. I'm more concerned about the possibility of retainer ventures and players who buy this option having an advantage on those that don't.

One more note for those claiming that someone with two accounts will have an advantage over players with one account. Of course they will! But for all intents and purposes that would be considered two completely separate players. There is no advantage if you want to pay for 2 or 3 or 4 accounts because you are simply treated as that many different users at that point. It's no different then sharing items and loot with a good friend, except you are doing it with yourself. But if you let one of those accounts pay more per month to gain an advantage for one of those characters then I would have an issue.

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Originally Posted by Seif

You are missing the point.

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No, I'm not missing it at all.

Pre-Planned before Launch Fees I knew were coming.

• Sub Fees
• Additional/Optional Retainers when Venture system is ready to launch.

Until I personally see how much Ventures impact the game. I am in a holding pattern on this.

Player Demand from these forums since beta:

• Cash Shop Threads (regarding Vanity and other items not considered PTW)
• Purchasable Vial of Fantasia via Mog Station

If you didn't expect a Cash Shop outcome, idk what to tell you honestly.

P2P with Non-PTW Cash Shops is already in the Industry and has been.
(Thank player demand)

You can now thank Blizzard for introducing a P2P with PTW model in the Industry.
(We will see more of it, if player demand is there.)

If the game falls under a true P2P with PTW. I'm canceling, period.

Just because a feature was planned a long time ago doesn't mean it's a good feature that we have to like. If an item you buy from a cash shop has any impact on the actual gameplay or economy of a game I will be against it.

I probably wouldn't have as much items if I didn't constantly get undercut every time I put something up for sale.