Battle Reform: Auto-Attack (06/30/2011)

When the word algorithms are mentioned.... does he mean the stats are gonna stay the same and not be revised? If so... thats too bad, i was looking forward more towards the stat fixes then auto attack tbh.

There's a fair amount of space between criticism and a rant you know. Both show dissatisfaction, but when the first is a legit way to prove it, rants make you pathetic. Even more when ranting on something useles like archer meleeing with punches instead of daggers/whatever, since an archer for definition should use a BOW.
And btw, i don't wanna see ffxi's pre-nerf rangers melee in this game

Why are people thinking they'll complete the different paths for both dungeons in one day? And even if they do, isnt that the case for most MMO or even normal RPG dungeon areas, unless they have a truly challenging boss battle?

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Originally Posted by Xenor

I'm not getting auto attack, ARC is my main class and attacking with bare fists is hardly going to be the norm. You'll do it as often as you attack with rocks right now. All they're doing is adding a recast timer to Light Shot to compensate for the lack of stamina cost.

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Yeah. For anyone that played XI, just think RNG with h2h. I'd imagine it'll just be one of those preference things as to whether you'd rather TP w/ranged or jump in close for TP then hop out for WS/multishot etc. Who knows.

Hope for the best; expect the worst.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

Why are people thinking they'll complete the different paths for both dungeons in one day? And even if they do, isnt that the case for most MMO or even normal RPG dungeon areas, unless they have a truly challenging boss battle?

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Because their mind is on a linear path atm because all SE has gave us were "easy mode" stuff, so its not like I wouldn't blame them for thinking that way, I just have a different outlook on it, like you do saying it will be challenging in which I agree with

I was really hoping stat changes would be implemented. The reason i'm disappointed is because we simply don't know when 1.19 will release. If history tells us anything, it'll be a couple of months and unfortunately without the recalculation, the battle system will continue to remain watered down and lacking in involvement and genuine challenge.

But i'm confident with the time they've taken, they've done everything right and with that I can't wait for 1.19. 1.18 is of relatively little interest to me at this point other than dungeons :P

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Originally Posted by RedAffinity

I was really hoping stat changes would be implemented. The reason i'm disappointed is because we simply don't know when 1.19 will release. If history tells us anything, it'll be a couple of months and unfortunately without the recalculation, the battle system will continue to remain watered down and lacking in involvement and genuine challenge.

But i'm confident with the time they've taken, they've done everything right and with that I can't wait for 1.19. 1.18 is of relatively little interest to me at this point other than dungeons :P

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One thing about Square Enix (for better or worse) is that history really cant dictate the actions they'll take.

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Originally Posted by RedAffinity

I was really hoping stat changes would be implemented. The reason i'm disappointed is because we simply don't know when 1.19 will release. If history tells us anything, it'll be a couple of months and unfortunately without the recalculation, the battle system will continue to remain watered down and lacking in involvement and genuine challenge.

But i'm confident with the time they've taken, they've done everything right and with that I can't wait for 1.19. 1.18 is of relatively little interest to me at this point other than dungeons :P

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They've said on multiple occasions that after the initial battle reform patch, future patches will be much faster in succession. People are assuming they can finish dungeon material in 1 day, yet they know nothing about them.
It's been stated, that there are several paths within dungeons, and based on several variables treasures within dungeons randomly disperse. People have no clue about re-entry cool down timer. For all we know it will take 24 hours before you are allowed back in. On top of that, I'd just like to say, that people who are fussing about the algorithms not being in 1.18 and instead SE decided to bring content, here's what I have to say. The development team working on FFXIV is based around several departments, meaning the battle system department more than likely wasn't done with the algorithms yet, and so, will not be ready till 1.19.

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

They've said on multiple occasions that after the initial battle reform patch, future patches will be much faster in succession. People are assuming they can finish dungeon material in 1 day, yet they know nothing about them.
It's been stated, that there are several paths within dungeons, and based on several variables treasures within dungeons randomly disperse. People have no clue about re-entry cool down timer. For all we know it will take 24 hours before you are allowed back in. On top of that, I'd just like to say, that people who are fussing about the algorithms not being in 1.18 and instead SE decided to bring content, here's what I have to say. The development team working on FFXIV is based around several departments, meaning the battle system department more than likely wasn't done with the algorithms yet, and so, will not be ready till 1.19.

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Not to metion when you say "After the Initial battle reform Patch, Future patches will be much faster in succession" another words instead of once a month ( considering the other patch will be huge like 1.18) will be twice a month ( with just a much or more content within each patch).

You never know when they say that, they could come out with 1.19 2 weeks after 1.18 but of course time will tell with that

Ok typing from droid so sorry in advance.
Lot of good info.
What id really like a dev to address is the changes if there are any to the way gaurd works now with autoattack.
Will it stay the same only with cooldown instead of stamina or will it be like a toggleable stance or like how parry and evade work now.
Also due to the change in that one ability will that make using lower blockrate shields viable. Like a trade off of getting better blockrate and using a higher wield rate shield vs a higher block rated shield but using theability that increases wield rate.
Jus some random thoughts I had and again appologies for the droidtardedness

It's rather simple. If the improved physical level system isn't implemented, the stat algorithms that go side-by-side can not be implemented neither. And vice-versa. Further, the class action changes can not be implemented beforehand (because their effects are built around the new stat algorithms). Only partial changes related to the basic AA functionality and enmity can be made.

You can also add item status changes to the list, materia system and so on and so on. Before the stat algorithms are dealt with, as well as the abolishment of phys levels, everything mentioned above is on hold.

If (and this is a big if) the patch is delayed due to dungeon balancing alone, and development is otherwise on schedule, I'd guess that we'll have to wait a month per patch from now on. It's not like they will only start the development on stats after 1.18 is done- they've stalled for half a year to be able to release everything in a quick succession.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Too damn right it will. Would you rather everyone just quit so you can be the only one playing? Crying/whining is what forced SE to redevelop the game. Surprised you're still playing if you were happy with the game in September. Oh wait, no, you were probably crying/whining yourself. Hypocrite.

At the end of the day when SE make one of your classes unplayable or so big a pain in the ass to play that you don't want to play it any more we have every right to complain. I'll be whining even harder if they give WHM job to one of the mage classes without giving it another job. I only have three battle classes at 50 and SE are potentially making two of them unplayable for me.

There's absolutely no reason why ARC should not have auto attack with its main weapon. SE could have added a toggle for all classes so if you want to sit and spam 1 and fight with the recast timer display issue you can turn it off. But no, they try a one fits all approach and piss off half the player base. The ones whining about the whiners or who think it's a good idea either don't play ARC or their prayers from constant whines about ARC being over-powered have been answered. Making a class a pain in the ass to play isn't a fix.




I've been playing long enough to know how tapping the 1 key works and how recast timers work. You don't need to experience it to know how light shot with a recast is going to work.

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There is one fundamental flaw with your argument. Sensible, reasonable, rational people do not pass judgement on something without trying it out personally first.

Yes, people did cry and whine and shoot tons of criticism on the state of the game, and have been doing so since it's release - but the ones that get heard are the ones that comment on the current state and provide suggestions for improvement.

What you are doing cannot be described by anything other than crying out of fear. You know only a small fraction of what the patch will bring, the basic skeletal structure of it. The actual meat of the patch, what will make or break it, lies in the quantitative information: the actual numbers. You have no clue whether the recast timer will be a matter of 1-2 seconds, which will allow you to actually fire off Light Shots at a quicker rate than before. You do not know if Close Shot and/or Shadowbind will have their Bind effect changed so that receiving damage does not break it's effect on the mob, therefore allowing you to stay at range. These things may very well not be the case, but the fact of the matter is none of us know. You cannot criticize something you do not know. Therefore nothing of what you are doing is constructive in any way, shape or form.

Does anyone not see the advantages of recast timers over a stamina system. Am I the only one happy that I will be able to always fire off a Light Shot right after I use Trifurcate, instead of waiting for a bar to fill? Am I the only one happy that I will be able to use Chameleon, or Decoy, or Scouring Strike right away, even though I have been spamming Light Shots at maximum output speed?

I do not mean any of this as a personal attack Xenor, but simply to point out that we barely know anything about what we will actually get with 1.18. I would rather spend that time speaking of many possibilities, and perhaps suggesting ideas of mine that compliment the direction of the game and influence major, popular decisions rather than assume the worst is the case and attempt to criticize/vent about something that is no more that hypothetical at this point in time.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Sounds interesting, but I'll have to actually try it out first before I can really analyze anything. There's still a lot of stuff we don't know.

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This right here is the appropriate response if you have nothing hopeful or exciting to say. Thanks Renta for the example response.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

There is one fundamental flaw with your argument. Sensible, reasonable, rational people do not pass judgement on something without trying it out personally first.

Yes, people did cry and whine and shoot tons of criticism on the state of the game, and have been doing so since it's release - but the ones that get heard are the ones that comment on the current state and provide suggestions for improvement.

What you are doing cannot be described by anything other than crying out of fear. You know only a small fraction of what the patch will bring, the basic skeletal structure of it. The actual meat of the patch, what will make or break it, lies in the quantitative information: the actual numbers. You have no clue whether the recast timer will be a matter of 1-2 seconds, which will allow you to actually fire off Light Shots at a quicker rate than before. You do not know if Close Shot and/or Shadowbind will have their Bind effect changed so that receiving damage does not break it's effect on the mob, therefore allowing you to stay at range. These things may very well not be the case, but the fact of the matter is none of us know. You cannot criticize something you do not know. Therefore nothing of what you are doing is constructive in any way, shape or form.

Does anyone not see the advantages of recast timers over a stamina system. Am I the only one happy that I will be able to always fire off a Light Shot right after I use Trifurcate, instead of waiting for a bar to fill? Am I the only one happy that I will be able to use Chameleon, or Decoy, or Scouring Strike right away, even though I have been spamming Light Shots at maximum output speed?

I do not mean any of this as a personal attack Xenor, but simply to point out that we barely know anything about what we will actually get with 1.18. I would rather spend that time speaking of many possibilities, and perhaps suggesting ideas of mine that compliment the direction of the game and influence major, popular decisions rather than assume the worst is the case and attempt to criticize/vent about something that is no more that hypothetical at this point in time.



This right here is the appropriate response if you have nothing hopeful or exciting to say. Thanks Renta for the example response.

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I couldn't have said it any better myself.. Its just a longer version of what I wrote with a few more key points and I'm grateful you pointed them out =). Thanks :D

"For instance, archers will strike with their bare fists"

WTH SE, why screw Archer so bad to this??? I mean, archers are not a front line job, you guys should know this, Archers are meant to be back support not front line...how the hell will archers do a punch animation when they have to stay at range and not up close and personal...I can understand on solo play this is probably not a major issue but on party setup especially on NM runs...Archers aren't staying at front to punch the crap of the mob until they can shoot arrows...I mean come on!!! This is the dumbest idea that you guys came up with so far...atleast Archer in FFXI had knife...bare fists??? Not only that but archer players will get a message every freakin second they do punch animation at range saying "you are not at range"...I stuck around on this game this long in hopes of good innovative ideas are implemented..not to turn this game to a FFXI clone! Why do YoshiP and his team listen to those who complain so much that FFXIV needs to be more like FFXI? Come on now...this game doesn't have to feel like FFXI...you guys are smarter than that! Just keep giving us good content to play with...holy crap..you guys have to mess with the battle mechanics so much that you have to end up resorting to making it look like FFXI?

The Archer auto attack decision is just bizarre to me and quite frankly a poor one. I'm not sure why SE is so against ranged auto attack. If they think it'll be too powerful just increase the delay or decrease the damage. Arrow issues? Remove arrows and add quivers that don't need refilling. Placing a timer on your main attack when everyone else can be attacking automatically while planning out their other abilities seems unfair and will most likely send a good chunk of the player base into fits of rage. Also if Archers are attacking with their fist does this mean they will not be able to benefit from weapon upgrades like other classes? Thus making their auto-attack even more useless? My only thought for why they are handling Archer's AA like this is because they want to discourage close combat but at the cost of the player. If you're going to give some classes shiny new toys you need to give them all shiny new toys or people will cry unbalance.

On the flip side I can understand Mage classes not getting a ranged auto attack because they want to emphasize Mages using their magic instead of relying on ranged melee. Sitting there and throwing darts all day would just make them into a archer class with magic.

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Originally Posted by avalonstormm

.how the hell will archers do a punch animation when they have to stay at range and not up close and personal...

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When you're at range, you use "Light Shot".

Just like you do now.

Not really sure what your grievance is.

"Archer will strike with their Bare Fist" Now this is where it changes... "If you get close to the target" ( Like a Pugilist does) then it will use its barefists. If you are at a distance ( in which a archer should be at a distance because that is their job is to shoot arrows at a distance) then you will shoot arrows.

Just don't get "extremely" close to the Target and your good to go

speed surge = hastega ? O.O

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Originally Posted by Bigglesworth

speed surge = hastega ? O.O

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!!!! YES,PLEASE!!!!! Lancer with Buffing abilities :D

Although the sounds of Dragon Knight sounds more... Epic~er.. so I'll stay with Dragon Knight when it comes out =)

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Originally Posted by Bigglesworth

speed surge = hastega ? O.O

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I think it'll only apply to just the lancer himself.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I think it'll only apply to just the lancer himself.

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You just had to crush my hopes and dreams didn't you!? :P hehe

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Originally Posted by Starlord

You just had to crush my hopes and dreams didn't you!? :P hehe

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My friends call me, "Dream Devourer".

My enemies call me, "Honey-cakes".

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

When you're at range, you use "Light Shot".

Just like you do now.

Not really sure what your grievance is.

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So it's ok for us to have to spam our ranged AA-like ability (Light Shot) while other classes get their AA automatically?

Imagine everyone getting a proper AA but PUG has to spam a button to use their other fist. That's basically what you're saying.

Your logic. I fail to see it. Probably because it isn't there.

I want that Chaos Thrust! Currently working on getting LNC up as my next r50 and I'm kinda torn when it comes to the timing of the 1.18 patch. I want to hit 50 before it comes out because it's easier to rank now and I'll have the epic Chaos Thrust with the new animation, but at the same time I don't want to wat too long for the patch. ><

tl;dr

SE seems to have gone and done exactly what I didn't see happen, and that is re-create FFXI where ranged attacks are completely unaffected by Haste or Slow, thus leading to RNG being outclassed by virtually ever melee job because of how overpowered Haste is.

Good job guys, way to screw it up. I liked having haste affect my ARC for a change, thank you very much. Hopefully they'll realize in time just what a colossal screw up this is before they begin to implement haste gear and we have FFXI 2.0 on our hands.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

My friends call me, "Dream Devourer".

My enemies call me, "Honey-cakes".

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I love Honey-cakes will go with that one :D tehe XD

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Originally Posted by NefGP

Hopefully they'll realize in time just what a colossal screw up this is before they begin to implement haste gear and we have FFXI 2.0 on our hands.

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Yep, I'm certain Haste in this game will have exponential increases like in XI (which is why it was so broken in the first place).

Oh wait, no I don't think so.

XI RNG has it's own Haste by the way, so it can be affected by it.

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Originally Posted by Capita

So it's ok for us to have to spam our ranged AA-like ability (Light Shot) while other classes get their AA automatically?

Your logic. I fail to see it. Probably because it isn't there.

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I would like to see you make good use of Multishot/Trifurcate with auto attack.

Sure one can argue that they can just make LS the AA and make HS trigger nocked arrows - but even that is besides the point.

The AA on ranged attacks is a matter of preference with more cons than melee range AA. Therefore SE had to make a decision and chose to keep AA melee only. I'm content with this.

I can continue to play Archer in the uber way I do already, but now with many improvements due to the lack of a stamina bar constraint.

Now I must ask you. Are you upset because you haven't put enough thought into what we do know, and realized Archer won't be negatively effected by this - or because other classes are getting some candy and Archer is 'missing out?'

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Originally Posted by Starlord

"Archer will strike with their Bare Fist" Now this is where it changes... "If you get close to the target" ( Like a Pugilist does) then it will use its barefists. If you are at a distance ( in which a archer should be at a distance because that is their job is to shoot arrows at a distance) then you will shoot arrows.

Just don't get "extremely" close to the Target and your good to go

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If this is the case then I'll be ok with it

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Originally Posted by Capita

So it's ok for us to have to spam our ranged AA-like ability (Light Shot) while other classes get their AA automatically?

Imagine everyone getting a proper AA but PUG has to spam a button to use their other fist. That's basically what you're saying.

Your logic. I fail to see it. Probably because it isn't there.

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lol

You're only archer rank 24, so I'll let this one slide.

As you get to know your class better, you'll realize that playing archer is different than melee classes. Choosing when NOT to shoot is just as important, if not more so, than choosing when to shoot.

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Originally Posted by Capita

So it's ok for us to have to spam our ranged AA-like ability (Light Shot) while other classes get their AA automatically?

Imagine everyone getting a proper AA but PUG has to spam a button to use their other fist. That's basically what you're saying.

Your logic. I fail to see it. Probably because it isn't there.

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actually this is probably exactly what pug will be like. I will still have to manually flurry, light strike and pummel. so uh yeah what you said is exactly correct, for almost every job. Marauders will have to use heavy and broad swing manually, and lancers will have to use pierce and full thrust manually.
I can tell you now heavy strike is probably the 3rd most used pugilist basic attack.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I think it'll only apply to just the lancer himself.

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Speed Surge: Weild your weapon deftly, increasing stamina regeneration. Hitting the target inflicts an enfeebling status which grants attacking party members the ability to absorb HP"

there is still hope...

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Originally Posted by NefGP

tl;dr

SE seems to have gone and done exactly what I didn't see happen, and that is re-create FFXI where ranged attacks are completely unaffected by Haste or Slow, thus leading to RNG being outclassed by virtually ever melee job because of how overpowered Haste is.

Good job guys, way to screw it up. I liked having haste affect my ARC for a change, thank you very much. Hopefully they'll realize in time just what a colossal screw up this is before they begin to implement haste gear and we have FFXI 2.0 on our hands.

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in ffxi didnt haste lower cool downs? wont your skills now be on cool downs? jumping the gun here

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I would like to see you make good use of Multishot/Trifurcate with auto attack.

Sure one can argue that they can just make LS the AA and make HS trigger nocked arrows - but even that is besides the point.

The AA on ranged attacks is a matter of preference with more cons than melee range AA. Therefore SE had to make a decision and chose to keep AA melee only. I'm content with this.

I can continue to play Archer in the uber way I do already, but now with many improvements due to the lack of a stamina bar constraint.

Now I must ask you. Are you upset because you haven't put enough thought into what we do know, and realized Archer won't be negatively effected by this - or because other classes are getting some candy and Archer is 'missing out?'

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Multishot can easily be changed to something like Penta-Thrust where you don't have to manually queue arrows. Or Multishot can be like it is now, where it's used to queue arrows, appearing as a buff, and make LS use up the buff, thus giving actual use for LS even if ranged AA is added (because -- let's be honest -- who would actually use LS if we had a proper AA given to us). It's really not that difficult.

I'm upset because they're adding FFXI's RNG mechanics into a game whose battle mechanics don't support it. FFXI's RNG worked because of the way its battle system worked, which is more akin to turn-based RPG's. FFXIV's system is closer to action RPG's like WoW (yeah I said it), so forcing a ranged DPS class to go into melee range for maximum damage defeats the entire purpose of playing a ranged DPS class.

Perhaps you're lulled by some false sense that FFXI's RNG is the only way the Archer/Ranger archetype should be played. No, not for a game like this. As soon as tougher bosses come out with heavily damaging AOE, what's gonna happen? ARC will only hinder the group from being in the middle of it by adding more bodies to heal as opposed to filling their niche and staying out of range with the healers and mages.

It just doesn't make any sense for a character, whose primary weapon is a bow, to not be able to use it properly. If a mob gets close, fine, force our melee AA. It doesn't make much sense to me to be able to redraw our bow while someone's in our face anyway. But while a mob is still well in range of a bow, we should be able to AA with a bow.

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Originally Posted by Bigglesworth

Speed Surge: Weild your weapon deftly, increasing stamina regeneration. Hitting the target inflicts an enfeebling status which grants attacking party members the ability to absorb HP"

there is still hope...

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uhh it always gave the lancer faster stamina generation (old school haste) and an enfeebling effect for draining hp, so it makes sense the AA speed boost is to address the lost of stamina haste and not the drain hp facet

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Originally Posted by Bigglesworth

Speed Surge: Weild your weapon deftly, increasing stamina regeneration. Hitting the target inflicts an enfeebling status which grants attacking party members the ability to absorb HP"

there is still hope...

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Yeah thats only when you you hit the target you gain HP back, you dont actually get " Speed surge" if your not the user that cast it

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

lol

You're only archer rank 24, so I'll let this one slide.

As you get to know your class better, you'll realize that playing archer is different than melee classes. Choosing when NOT to shoot is just as important, if not more so, than choosing when to shoot.

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I've played RNG to 75, I've played Hunter in WoW to 80 (top 5 hunters on my server in PVE and Gladiator for multiple seasons in arena), I've played Hunter in RO to 99 (top 5 to hit 99 after open beta), etc. I've played nothing but the Archer classes in every MMO I've ever played, and I've played almost every variation of a combat system that could possibly be thought of in an MMO up to endgame. I got this game when it came out and chose to stop because it was boring, but I'm holding out in hopes it'll get better. My level says nothing about my ability in a game, because I guarantee I know my ranged classes very well.

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Originally Posted by Capita

Multishot can easily be changed to something like Penta-Thrust where you don't have to manually queue arrows. Or Multishot can be like it is now, where it's used to queue arrows, appearing as a buff, and make LS use up the buff, thus giving actual use for LS even if ranged AA is added (because -- let's be honest -- who would actually use LS if we had a proper AA given to us). It's really not that difficult.

I'm upset because they're adding FFXI's RNG mechanics into a game whose battle mechanics don't support it. FFXI's RNG worked because of the way its battle system worked, which is more akin to turn-based RPG's. FFXIV's system is closer to action RPG's like WoW (yeah I said it), so forcing a ranged DPS class to go into melee range for maximum damage defeats the entire purpose of playing a ranged DPS class.

Perhaps you're lulled by some false sense that FFXI's RNG is the only way the Archer/Ranger archetype should be played. No, not for a game like this. As soon as tougher bosses come out with heavily damaging AOE, what's gonna happen? ARC will only hinder the group from being in the middle of it by adding more bodies to heal as opposed to filling their niche and staying out of range with the healers and mages.

It just doesn't make any sense for a character, whose primary weapon is a bow, to not be able to use it properly. If a mob gets close, fine, force our melee AA. It doesn't make much sense to me to be able to redraw our bow while someone's in our face anyway. But while a mob is still well in range of a bow, we should be able to AA with a bow.

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its supposedly not going to be like a action rpg any more, but how does having to manually use skills make it less action rpgish? if anything it makes it more action rpgish

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Originally Posted by Capita

I've played RNG to 75, I've played Hunter in WoW to 80, I've played Hunter in RO to 99, etc. I've played nothing but the Archer classes in every MMO I've ever played, and I've played almost every variation of a combat system that could possibly be thought of in an MMO up to endgame. I got this game when it came out and chose to stop because it was boring, but I'm holding out in hopes it'll get better. My level says nothing about my ability in a game, because I guarantee I know my ranged classes very well.

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its a dif game man

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Originally Posted by Capita

I've played RNG to 75, I've played Hunter in WoW to 80, I've played Hunter in RO to 99, etc. I've played nothing but the Archer classes in every MMO I've ever played, and I've played almost every variation of a combat system that could possibly be thought of in an MMO up to endgame. I got this game when it came out and chose to stop because it was boring, but I'm holding out in hopes it'll get better. My level says nothing about my ability in a game, because I guarantee I know my ranged classes very well.

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Based on what we've seen now, archers are going to work nearly the same as they do now, and still have all their DPS intact. You're thinking that we have to get in close to DPS, otherwise we'll be gimp. That is not the case.

You can still use light shot in patch 1.18 the same way you've been using it all this time now. (assuming the light shot cooldown isn't too long).