Please patch Turn 2 enrage

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeonC

It's the principle people! If everyone keeps defending it and SE keeps making content with easy mode kills or keeps decreasing difficulty that's no fun to me. It's telling me that the future content of the game will be made with no real challenge. I have just started t5 but it worries me that people seem to prefer simple boring fights to complex tough ones.

---

The principle is intact. If you feel like you're cheapening the experience by 0 click, pass rot. This is the modern age and we have options! Hooray for options!

I have the option but I am also not going to take the harder route if a more simple one is presented. I want it -designed- challenging, otherwise why not come on my alt in i60 gear and make it a real challenge. Not to mention I do not have the final say over 7 other people in my static and which method we choose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryios

And now people are 1 Tanking turn 1 - 4 with the enrage strat on t2 leaving a ton of tanks left out.

.

---

How is it possible to t1 with 1 tank? Also, on excalibur at least, I have yet to see an issue with tanks being left out of coil due to the Enrage strategy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeonC

I have the option but I am also not going to take the harder route if a more simple one is presented. I want it -designed- challenging, otherwise why not come on my alt in i60 gear and make it a real challenge. Not to mention I do not have the final say over 7 other people in my static and which method we choose.

---

Hold on. So, you want Square to impose something difficult because you lack motivation to take the long path? Sorry, but if for nothing else, I disagree because I'd prefer to have the choice to do either/or.

Dropping your ilvl down is one way to increase difficulty. Do it the way the first parties cleared. Would give you a sense of what you're looking for.

Like I said, you find like minded individuals and run with i60 gear or pass rot if that's what makes it worth your while.

What matters more to you? Ideals or conformity?

You are missing my point, it's the statement it makes about the future development of the game. If i have to impose restraints on myself to create a challenge that will lose all sense of triumph i come to expect when playing a game. I want the fights to be hard, to have to work and think and then have the glory of victory. This is how I felt when I first beat t2, but when i came to see that they think the enrage method is not an exploit but intended or that moogle is being toned down or AK or Twin in the future it just makes me kind of bummed out that this is the direction the game will be going from now on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeonC

You are missing my point, it's the statement it makes about the future development of the game. If i have to impose restraints on myself to create a challenge that will lose all sense of triumph i come to expect when playing a game. I want the fights to be hard, to have to work and think and then have the glory of victory. This is how I felt when I first beat t2, but when i came to see that they think the enrage method is not an exploit but intended or that moogle is being toned down or AK or Twin in the future it just makes me kind of bummed out that this is the direction the game will be going from now on.

---

Isn't that what T4-5 are now? It's impossible to keep both sides happy. By offering options, Square is doing the lesser of evils.

All pigeon holing does is lead to scripted fights and a one mentality approach to things (like we don't have enough of that already). I would rather flexibility and options over mind numbing difficulty and pattern memorization (this applies to T2 only. Good King Mog was good to go in my book. I was of the mind that it didn't need to get toned down and AK's nerf also took away it's gear value as well).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeonC

It's the principle people! If everyone keeps defending it and SE keeps making content with easy mode kills or keeps decreasing difficulty that's no fun to me. It's telling me that the future content of the game will be made with no real challenge. I have just started t5 but it worries me that people seem to prefer simple boring fights to complex tough ones.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeonC

I have the option but I am also not going to take the harder route if a more simple one is presented. I want it -designed- challenging, otherwise why not come on my alt in i60 gear and make it a real challenge. Not to mention I do not have the final say over 7 other people in my static and which method we choose.

---

Are you contradicting yourself? You say you prefer a complex, tough fight over some simple and boring then proceed to say you are "not going to take the harder route if a more simple one is presented."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ustav

Are you contradicting yourself? You say you prefer a complex, tough fight over some simple and boring then proceed to say you are "not going to take the harder route if a more simple one is presented."

---

Because making something harder artificially isn't the same. It's like trying a gimmick, like doing Titan HM in swimsuits. It feels artificial when you know you're gimping yourself.
That's an extreme example and Turn 2 is obviously not as bad as that. The non-enrage method even takes less time than the enrage one.

On one hand, I understand pugging can be tough so it's nice that there's a way to get through Turn 2 without getting lucky with a good pick of people. I'm not really against it.

On the other hand, I think the game needs more complex, challenging and interesting mechanics. Turn 2 is one of the few parts of end-game where group coordination is a thing and this should be encouraged. I am hopeful, though, since most of Crystal Tower have such mechanics and so does Ifrit EM so I think they're heading in that direction.

Encounters should require a certain level of complexity and, in some cases, allow for you to make the fight harder as well. I think to some people, turning one of the few cases where there's a certain level of group coordination into something much closer to a tank and spank is upsetting.

Having a harder/simpler route really only applies when the simple route is the normal route and the harder one is crazy challenging. Instead, it's more like normal/easy. No one complains if you can make a fight harder for achievements/bragging rights. They'll only complain if there's a built in easy route.

I'm not really against the enrage method, but the design does seem weird. The node mechanics and which you decide to kill are part of the base design. You shouldn't be able to throw it out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ustav

Are you contradicting yourself? You say you prefer a complex, tough fight over some simple and boring then proceed to say you are "not going to take the harder route if a more simple one is presented."

---

Who cares if it is a contradiction, even though the next sentence should clarify(if you read that far).

I am guessing the Devs allow it to exist because they are explicitly aware 75% of pugs are wholly incapable of dealing with the rot mechanic. The nightmares I had to go through as a lone adventurer into teams for T2 before they began enraging was ridiculous. No matter how smart, experienced, or elite they SEEMED when you joined, you'd fight your way down to the boss and people would instantly turn into a bunch of snarfs, face-planting into walls and passing rot instantly OR NOT AT ALL, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asael

Says who? Where was it ever mentioned that enrage in T2 is supposed to be a game-ender?

---

Every enrage implemented in every game ever. Enrages tend to give you at the most a couple of seconds to get the kill in if you're 1-5% away from the win, then the raid dies. Either because of a massive damage spike, a one-shot-kill-all attack or the room blowing up. The point of the enrage is that if you failed to meet the requirements to avoid it you are going to die and have to start over.

Alhanelem is right in saying this is poor implementation. I also wouldn't attach myself too much to the CM post on this, as the devs also said Dark Devices was fine and there were no plans to change it, and then Dark Devices was adjusted.

I will NEVER understand why people are so concerned with what someone else is doing, when it doesnt concern them in any way. Why Should I care what some random party that Im not even in is doing? Uggh...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duelle

Every enrage implemented in every game ever.

---

Except for FFXIV, the only one that matters here. 99% of games is not 100% of games.

Enrage mode should have been like that Ultima move from Ultima weapon or Odin's Zantestsuken. You either kill ADS before he gets a chance to enrage or instantly wipe, simple as that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoninDarkchild

I will NEVER understand why people are so concerned with what someone else is doing, when it doesnt concern them in any way. Why Should I care what some random party that Im not even in is doing? Uggh...

---

This. I don't see why its such a big deal for some people lol. OMG, people are clearing T2 easier than my friends I were 2 months ago, PATCH! Seriously, do whatever works and make you feel better. My friends and I have cleared it both ways, it doesn't make anyone better/lesser of a player. Also, we intentionally let cad join back together and kite it(last week) sometimes because we get bored, and if your tank can kite (Stoneskin is key) with good healers, its actually easier. *GASP* Broken mechanics, PATCH! They gave us a fight, players found a strategy around it that works for them. Shouldn't you promote player creativity with different strategies, rather than just shoving it into a corner and letting the game/others tell you how you should play?

Turn 2 annoys me a little, cos my party is very capable in doing it the normal way, we 2 shot it the other week for instance (which is great for a newly formed FC static) but, because the option is there to just mindlessly hit it with overhealing, we do it.. cos its too convenient.. if there is a winding path to the left taking you from A to B then someone just builds a bridge between A to B, you're gonna take the bridge. that kinda annoys me, we 0 clicked this week so we could get to t5 quicker to practise, i don't think it should be an option but while it is we will take it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZeroHigh

players found a strategy around it that works for them. Shouldn't you promote player creativity with different strategies

---

Mindlessly spamming AOE heals, isnt a strategy. It works but its stupid as hell.
It never should be an option for an endgame content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ustav

How is it possible to t1 with 1 tank? Also, on excalibur at least, I have yet to see an issue with tanks being left out of coil due to the Enrage strategy.

---

Well it is indeed possible to solo tank t1 if you didn't know. My static has been doing it for 2 months or maybe more just going with 1 more DPS its easier to kill stuff and burn through phases.
You can solo tank the whole coil 1-5, also you dont even need to wait for enrage in t2 with 1 tank, you can do t2 normal way with 1 tank only spamming adlo and ss on MT.
However i think SE is quite aware of this and most likely turns 6-10 will have some stack mechanics in bosses that's not possible to avoid even with shields and stuff so they will force 2 tanks in the future.
Anyway to do solo tank coil 1-5 you need pretty good DPS and healers plus overgeared tank i guess, so no way you can pug solo tank 1-4 most likely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeonC

It's the principle people! If everyone keeps defending it and SE keeps making content with easy mode kills or keeps decreasing difficulty that's no fun to me. It's telling me that the future content of the game will be made with no real challenge. I have just started t5 but it worries me that people seem to prefer simple boring fights to complex tough ones.

---

Unfortunately for you, the folks who want "real challenge" are the minority. Those who don't, would rather grind their way to victory, or simply can't be arsed to wipe on something for dozens of hours across weeks of time, are the majority. When you multiply the numbers by the subscription fee, I'm sorry, but ya'll really don't add up to that much.

Pleasing you lot exclusively would cost SE a lot of money, and they aren't going to do that just so you can lord over the "noobs" and lengthen your epeen.

Disclaimer: I don't do T2 this way, either and I find it boring to do it this way, but I don't care if other people do it this way. What I care about is that the ADS hates me and will not drop caster gear. :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CUTS3R

Mindlessly spamming AOE heals, isnt a strategy. It works but its stupid as hell.
It never should be an option for an endgame content.

---

Whether you call it a strategy, method, exploit, or gimmick, they all mean the same thing really. Who are you decide how difficult "1" boss in all of BC is? SE should hire you with the many years of game development you have under your belt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

What I care about is that the ADS hates me and will not drop caster gear. :(

---

Seriously, I've only gotten one thing from ADS for my summoner.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doki

Well it takes a LOT longer to PUG since you eat up an additional healer as well.

---

People still don't have healer alts?

It's like this game doesn't have a class system at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It affects them because it cheapens their "honest" wins, and it means people with poorer skill can get past what ordinarly required competent players. Since SE legitimized it its nearly impossible to do it the "legit" way now. It takes less time, but everyone would rather have loleasy rather than faster runs.

---

The fact FCs can sell Titan HM runs (and other things) means that the end-game was already 'cheapened' and just shows doing ANYTHING is no indication of one's own personal skill, only people who worry about how others do something are going to be bothered with this and they really need to get a life.

I use Enrage and still clear Turn 4 easily..

Pulling Chimera up the hill..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alhanelem

People consider it cheap/exploitative, as it is supposed to be a game-ender but fails to do so and it disables all other fight mechanics.

---

If SE wanted it to be a game-ender, they would have made it a game-ender. People keep insisting there was some mistake with the enrage, but there wasn't. There are plenty of other examples of a hard enrage in the game if you fail to meet a timer/dps check so people need to accept it was designed this way intentionally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peptaru

Except for FFXIV, the only one that matters here. 99% of games is not 100% of games.

---

Ah, the "the rules shouldn't apply to us" defense.

This is basic balance and design. It should be addressed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CUTS3R

Mindlessly spamming AOE heals, isnt a strategy. It works but its stupid as hell.
It never should be an option for an endgame content.

---

Agreed. You have people asking for hard content with DPS, HPS and effective HP requirements then find a trite way to complete the content while not directly dealing with the encounter's mechanics, then have the gall to try to pass it off as a legit strategy...as legit as making AV glitch into a wall so it can be burned down from range.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KraggyKor

The fact FCs can sell Titan HM runs (and other things) means that the end-game was already 'cheapened' and just shows doing ANYTHING is no indication of one's own personal skill, only people who worry about how others do something are going to be bothered with this and they really need to get a life.

---

Not really. If HM Titan was not the absolute bottleneck it currently is, you wouldn't have people selling Titan runs. Not to mention that 7 people carrying someone through an encounter is VERY different from taking advantage of an improperly implemented mechanic for an easy win.

Anyone who doesn't think the enrage strategy is affecting the overall balance is silly. T2 is struggling to find healers on average now while T4 is struggling to find Tanks.
This imbalance comes from this 3 Healer, 4 DPS, 1 Tank formation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Havenchild

Anyone who doesn't think the enrage strategy is affecting the overall balance is silly. T2 is struggling to find healers on average now while T4 is struggling to find Tanks.
This imbalance comes from this 3 Healer, 4 DPS, 1 Tank formation.

---

This is what people fail to realize. T2 enrage is a problem for everyone who relies on PUGs to do Coil (and don't come here "blah blah do in static blah". T1-T4 are easily puggable at this point). You're only hurting yourselves.

Enjoy having too many healers and too few PUG tanks for T4. I'm seeing a lot of parties taking quite a while to fill due to that imbalance.

Thankfully it doesn't affect me. Oh well, have fun I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryios

It's a cheap strat, even if devs said its ok. "They originally said DD was working as intended and they nerfed that".

I'm so tired of seeing Turn 2 Enrage strat in BCB. And now people are 1 Tanking turn 1 - 4 with the enrage strat on t2 leaving a ton of tanks left out. It's not in the design of the mechanics of the rest of the raid, how is it not considered broken?

I mean SE, you went through all the trouble to design all the mini bosses with mechanics you can choose to leave in and take out. Then you made it so people can just go "meh who cares" "MEdica Spam II on" and still win. And then you supported it.

Yet you patch the tree glitch on the first boss in AK, Nerf Dark Devices, fix the "jump off the platform with medica II Titan HM glitch" etc, and you say this one is ok and working as designed?

Seriously confused SE.

---

Sounds like someone doesn't have a coil static and is sick of sitting on the sidelines.

>.< Lol, this is like being angry at someone for winning the lottery. Darn them! All they had to do was scratch off a few numbers and i had to work for 80 hours a week to get the same amount of money! Nooooo!

Maybe not exactly but...lighten up gais :) It's just a game and you are supposed to be having fun! I know I am.

Seriously though, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Each side has valid points but for now SE has directly stated its not an exploit. Until they change their minds people are going to clear it in whatever fashion they choose. More power to them. Doesn't affect me at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

This is what people fail to realize. T2 enrage is a problem for everyone who relies on PUGs to do Coil (and don't come here "blah blah do in static blah". T1-T4 are easily puggable at this point). You're only hurting yourselves.

Enjoy having too many healers and too few PUG tanks for T4. I'm seeing a lot of parties taking quite a while to fill due to that imbalance.

Thankfully it doesn't affect me. Oh well, have fun I guess.

---

You have GOT to be kidding me. Trying to find a PUG group where all 8 members new how to pass rot was near impossible. This method makes pugging much more reliable.

In regards to the imbalance, the problem on most servers is a lack of tanks (hence the bonus) so this would actually be helping.

Actually, I have a coil static. We clear 1-4 every monday in 40 minutes. I have warrior and paladin to 50 and both are il89 in mytho. Warrior has Dual Haken and Paladin has Zenith, and Black Mage has Elder Staff (which means I farm the EM Primals every monday too). We are working on Turn 5 when we can get people to show up.

You don't have to stereotype me for hating the Enrage method. It's my opinion like or not. The normal mechanic isn't even hard. Two silences, pass rot, and dodge stuff, it's not hard really.

What really annoys me about it is they patch every other fight people find a work around for, but they say this one is ok....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadrojj

Sounds like someone doesn't have a coil static and is sick of sitting on the sidelines.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

Thankfully it doesn't affect me. Oh well, have fun I guess.

---

This pretty much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryios

What really annoys me about it is they patch every other fight people find a work around for, but they say this one is ok....

---

Regardless of whatever method we choose....i do agree with you here. Doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason to what they choose to nerf/fix and what not to. One minute they say something is fine and the next day it's been changed. It's almost like no one communicates over there. It's all "whatever they feel like despite what they've told us" kind of thing.

So instead of crying about things i don't like....i play the game and have fun. When it stops being fun i won't play, simple enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ustav

How is it possible to t1 with 1 tank? Also, on excalibur at least, I have yet to see an issue with tanks being left out of coil due to the Enrage strategy.

---

An IL 90 Tank grabs the boss, everyone zergs it without feeding it at all until it splits. Then that one tank grabs the new split and makes it merge back. The boss enrages and you get healed through the 4-5k hits he does and dps burns him. Popping sentinel, rampart, foresight, and eventually hallowed. DPS has to be on the f'in ball, but it can be done. E..g full il85+ groups can do this all with relic +1 or EX weapons.

No worries guys, turn 2 will be nerfed into the ground come march most likely as they turn it into a DF raid. I think SE is better off spending their time tweaking/fixing bugs in turn 6-9 than worrying about people who suck getting some free loot from a fairly easy turn to begin with. Any static that does this method is wasting about 5-8 minutes of their time so it's really not worth it if you have the coordination in your group to do it the right way.

what's sad about enrage mode is that it gets incompetent people past it. what's even more sad is that you run into people who have never done it the normal way. IDC that people are doing it this way, its just pathetic that people cant actually do it the normal way and that's why they do it. It most certainly is faster to do it the normal way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meJojo

People still don't have healer alts?

It's like this game doesn't have a class system at all.

---

no... they mean with a pug, you end up taking 3 healers because most cant do it with 2 lolol

If I'm not mistaken DD was never nerfed, they said what happened to it was accidental.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryios

snip

---

My coil static uses the enrage method because it's a lot less stressful. Simple as. The fact that this annoys you has no bearing on me or the way my static does things whatsoever. SE have already said this is working as intended. In March, the content is going to be nerfed anyway. If tanks are that desperate for T2 drops, they'd start their own parties if they don't have a static.

In other words, why does this thread exist?

Eh, yeah after the 2.2 announcement, this is irrelevant. I was merely commenting on a post someone commented me on, didn't realize I was bumbing this topic.

It must be nice to have a life that allows the luxury of being upset over such trivial things.

Furthermore, do you suppose that it might be a little ...arrogant... to assume that you know the intentions and motivations of complete strangers? (by which I mean the dev. team) So many in this thread have declared that they know! the true intent of those who designed and programmed this content, and, wouldn't you know it, it just happens to be exactly what they personally think aught to be done. What are the odds?