Every PVP MMO normalizes gear in PVP

I'm pretty sure the fact that GW2 just came out with new hard to get PVP armor that's meant to be there for people to put a lot of work into.... goes to show that the innovative idea of this 'not being 2004' anymore didn't work.... If you want a game that doesn't have PVP gear in it that you are rewarded with + wear to become even stronger.... instead of changing the game a large majority prefers that style in, in a jpmmorpg.... why not just play in GW2?

just because wow is doing it, doesnt mean other games need to follow it's example, take out gear progression from pvp, in a game where only crappy arenas exist, then why do them at all? for the fun of it, for nothing really, make it no risk no reward... no nothing, might aswell just take it from the game...

but seriously are you so mad your epic shinies from coil dont work in pvp ? work harder play more do sacrificies like the rest of us pvpers do until we gear up, you just want the easy way out, and for people like you, which do nothing but complain because they got their asses done in hard, go play another game... leave this game pvp alone, has it falls short from being great you still want to make it even worse by giving it no meanning, sure lets do what you want and actually see this game lose a big portion of its players. pve has progression, pvp has progression... you dont like it leave it.

Also the fact WoW started 'doing' stuff like that, if you noticed.... started to 'finally' kill that game. It isn't a good thing. They started catering to people whining, 'make everything equal!' a bit 'too' much, and due to that are shooting themselves in the foot. Hell, some of the shit they changed to be that way, they are changing 'back' due to it. The MMOs that make PVP like that, players get 'bored' of the content REALLY fast. Hence why most of you aren't playing them right now... If you are, then stick to playing them, rather than making this game a clone of them.

Call of Duty servers are that way ------------>


Everyone is leet

http://i40.tinypic.com/a23l7n.jpg

PvP forums are that way ------------->

I agree Shiyo. PvP gear should be visual trophies that show off one's success. It should not determine the outcome of a truly skill based game. Anyone who disagrees with that uses advanced gear as a crutch for a lack of skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warthain

just because wow is doing it, doesnt mean other games need to follow it's example, take out gear progression from pvp, in a game where only crappy arenas exist, then why do them at all? for the fun of it, for nothing really, make it no risk no reward... no nothing, might aswell just take it from the game...

---

There's plenty of crap you could dump on a PVP vendor and I really think a lot of people PVP for more than the carrot of new PVP gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronzeru

Also the fact WoW started 'doing' stuff like that, if you noticed.... started to 'finally' kill that game. It isn't a good thing. They started catering to people whining, 'make everything equal!' a bit 'too' much, and due to that are shooting themselves in the foot. Hell, some of the shit they changed to be that way, they are changing 'back' due to it. The MMOs that make PVP like that, players get 'bored' of the content REALLY fast. Hence why most of you aren't playing them right now... If you are, then stick to playing them, rather than making this game a clone of them.

---

I just don't agree that arena gear normalization is as big of a "make everyone on the same level" thing as you think. What if the Arena system didn't use level sync and instead used a level 40 to 49 bracket? We could apply every argument you're making to keeping that flawed system in place(or maybe you'd prefer that, I dunno)

A strong ladder system is what most MMO games lack for their pvp. SE needs only to look at Heartstone or Starcraft II to find great pvp based systems that are not based around vertical gear progression.

Again. The games that tried that, people get bored of the fastest. You guys don't seem to even be acknowledging that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronzeru

Again. The games that tried that, people get bored of the fastest. You guys don't seem to even be acknowledging that.

---

So what you're saying then that people are only engaged when they are using overwhelming gear advantage to stomp on people who don't have it? Maybe those people shouldn't have been playing PvP in the first place.

Gear progression for an instanced set fight with equal numbers on either side should have the same stats from gear. The deciding factor should be group comp. Playing ability and knowledge of the various classes. Gear progression in an open world pve environment can and should have gear progression as the gear flow can be challenged through pvp means. Not hard

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

No, this isn't 2004 anymore. Gear should NEVER be the deciding factor in PVP, if it is, you need to disable PVP until it's changed.

---

ShiyoIsAwesome

I can't believe people are defending PVP being gearbased and not purely skill based. Am I living in an alternative universe?

You're correct OP but sadly you forgot to put a trigger warning in your post and mentioned "WoW" so your thread automatically derailed and any hope of rational discussion was lost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

I can't believe people are defending PVP being gearbased and not purely skill based. Am I living in an alternative universe?

---

People are very passionate about their gear crutch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

I can't believe people are defending PVP being gearbased and not purely skill based. Am I living in an alternative universe?

---

1) Some players like to see progression in gear even if it's pvp.

2) Players will all end up the with the same gear eventually.

Plenty of mmos have some sort of pvp gear progression. Just because WoW does it doesn't mean every game should copy.

The problem with FFXIV's pvp is that it's simply not fun. Takes too long to start the match, no respawn, cc fest, chasing player around while watching your melee abilities fail over and over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

I can't believe people are defending PVP being gearbased and not purely skill based. Am I living in an alternative universe?

---

don't worry brah, these forums are filled with SE White Knights Galore.

PVP gear progression is fine if they freakin made it so that solo queues are never placed against premades. They have the damn system in place, I'm not sure why they don't complete it.

Last time I checked doing what every other mmorpg does tends to end you in f2p land. Followed by a slow and painful death of the game. Hey maybe just maybe let's try to not do what every other mmorpg is doing.... Thanks!

It's rather disheartening to queue to a level 30 PVP match as a level 38 and see the opposing team in full Vanya or like level gear. Don't think pure level sync will be able to help much in that situation. And there goes the arguement of getting Item Level 55 gear too.

Who are these people with 10k Wolf Marks already? Who I ask?!?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageSama

Last time I checked doing what every other mmorpg does tends to end you in f2p land. Followed by a slow and painful death of the game. Hey maybe just maybe let's try to not do what every other mmorpg is doing.... Thanks!

---

Gear progression based PVP is what every other MMO does. Only one single MMO currently doesn't follow this model and has the most successful MMO PVP with actual tournaments and e-sports coverage, and now WOW is following suit too.

*shrugs* It's what it is. Really, I think it's fine, and fits the personality of this game, being that the action/skill level of PvP in this game is already below the more PvP centric games out there (regardless of gear progression)

And it's no secret that while people might dislike gear progression, it's extremely effective it getting people to keep playing. There are plenty of people who play not to have fun, but so they can get things. They're just adding one more piece. I think you'll see plenty of people grinding PvP not so they can hone their skill, but so they can get the gear to dominate those lesser geared. I think arguing one way or the other just invites something akin to a religious debate. Most people won't change their opinion on this one because someone made a good point in this thread.

Personally, I think there is an audience for both. But really when it comes to PvP in this game, I think there are bigger fish to fry than "gear progression"

Normalization takes away choices that I'm hoping SE will someday implement:

Gear that gives X skill an additional effect at the cost of Y stats, but given the group comp actually is a beneficial tradeoff.

Gear that can be customized with materia to give somrbody the flexibility to focus on a certain aspect of their class.

Gear that people can spend time min/maxing for a desired result.


I dont think gear is the problem. I think gear having a clear A < B < C progression is the problem, and normalization just serves to remove the choice from players instead of giving us meaningful/interesting decisions to make with regards to our character and role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronzeru

Again. The games that tried that, people get bored of the fastest. You guys don't seem to even be acknowledging that.

---

they didn't get bored, they were competing, a LOT of the MMO players just don't like to compete against other players, they want to have fun and competing can be stressful...
there was this thing on SC2 that some players called "ladder anxiety" which seems to be what you describe as "get bored"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Doo

2) Players will all end up the with the same gear eventually.

---

No everyone wont end up with the same gear eventually... not going to happen. Few days in and the balance is already shifting to those who farmed hard the first few days. In a month you will be forced to lose over and over for hours on end just to get to the point where instant death isn't what happens every single time. They locked gear and abilities behind winning. Have you seen what you get for losing? Good luck losing your way to a level where you can compete.

I don't pvp in games like these because it is nothing but a farm fest for the best gear first so people can sit around and kill weaker players. If I want pvp I will go play a FPS game or something where gear and skills are normalized...

The difference is that GW2 has an actual skill tree, and actual runes that you can put on weapons/armor that significantly change your team comp.

FFXIV has no skill tree and "runes" are almost entirely predicated on resisting CC effects that weren't balanced for PvP nor was every class given a stunbreak.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Churchill

The difference is that GW2 has an actual skill tree, and actual runes that you can put on weapons/armor that significantly change your team comp.

FFXIV has no skill tree and "runes" are almost entirely predicated on resisting CC effects that weren't balanced for PvP nor was every class given a stunbreak.

---

This is a good point, as long as abilities are balanced around pve and there are no pvp builds for classes mechanics will be uneven irregardless of gear.

CC, team comp and latency will have a far bigger effect on who wins a given match than "skill" (and let's be honest, in a click-target-then-spam-skills environment, "skill" is little more than knowing what sequence to hit and being able to land yours before they land theirs)

As long as things aren't balanced for pvp it won't matter whether it's gear progression based or carebear "everbody is equal" based.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rochetm

I don't pvp in games like these because it is nothing but a farm fest for the best gear first so people can sit around and kill weaker players. If I want pvp I will go play a FPS game or something where gear and skills are normalized...

---

I can kinda agree with this, if you're serious about pvp and it being all about skill and stuff... you should really be playing a game designed and balanced around pvp as the focus rather than an unbalanced afterthought like it is in XIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rochetm

No everyone wont end up with the same gear eventually... not going to happen. .

---

From experience with mmos with gear progression, the man issue are usually guilds, pre mades that play too much, and FOTMers. Regardless of gear progression or not you'll still get rofflestomp. Gear progression just needs to be done in a way that makes it so that players with better gear aren't extremely overpowered.

I'ma point out the elephant in the room.... Everyone will try their hardest to find the easiest way out of having others be more geared than them.... don't wanna do it themselves... so want to bring everyone else down to their level... and every time those of you get what you want, you dry out the content, end up bored, then leave after ruining it with your whining for those who actually enjoyed it.

Though I agree with OP's opinion on PVP and gear in general, FFXIV's community seem to be very grind-oriented. I've seen more people in this game who actually want to "work to get something", as opposed to "just playing to have fun", than anywhere else before.
This game is totally gear-based, and progression-oriented. What OP suggest goes against the general design of the game (and judging by he reactions on this thread, I am comforted in the idea that it goes against what a good deal of the comunity wants).

From the start, seeing how gear-base this MMO was, I knew not to expect much from PvP. I haven't tried it yet, I will (to at least see how it goes). But if I really feel in the mood for PvP, I'll probably just launch GW2 instead. For precisely the reason mentionned by OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ronzeru

I'ma point out the elephant in the room.... Everyone will try their hardest to find the easiest way out of having others be more geared than them.... don't wanna do it themselves... so want to bring everyone else down to their level... and every time those of you get what you want, you dry out the content, end up bored, then leave after ruining it with your whining for those who actually enjoyed it.

---

It's not about "finding an easy way out of having others be more geared than them", it's about the people who farmed immediately after PvP went live have a glaring advantage over those who decide to start later. If someone were to start PvPing, say, 2 weeks from now, then they are essentially fighting an uphill battle whenever they come across others who already have the i70 or better PvP gear. Doesn't matter if the new person has more skill or is better at the game because they are gimped by not having farmed early on.

I'm not saying that PvP gear should be worthless because I think that those who put in effort should be rewarded by having an edge, I just don't agree with the huge disparity between having PvE gear and PvP. Obviously PvP gear should have an advantage, but it shouldn't be so much that the outcome of a match is determined by who has farmed more marks. It's partly the game's fault because there is almost no customization/build paths available due to the game having such a bland system when it comes to stat itemization and whatnot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shiyo

Gear progression based PVP is what every other MMO does. Only one single MMO currently doesn't follow this model and has the most successful MMO PVP with actual tournaments and e-sports coverage, and now WOW is following suit too.

---

Nobody here gives a crap about esports, tournaments, or WoW. What's best for that stuff isn't necessarily best for everybody else.

Quote:

---

I agree Shiyo. PvP gear should be visual trophies that show off one's success. It should not determine the outcome of a truly skill based game. Anyone who disagrees with that uses advanced gear as a crutch for a lack of skill.

---

The only rewards ever to be given out for FFXI's PvP were vanity rewards. look how long that lasted. It's a shame too because it was fun. but clunky/annoying entrance requirements + no rewards = no participation.

In any game with both PvE and PvP components, people tend not to participate in PvP unless there is an incentive. Vanity items usually arent enough of an incentive. It has to be a functional reward, even if it's only functional in PvP or functional in PvE but not as effective (which is how it currently is in XIV- PvP gear can be used elsewhere but it won't be as good due to one of the secondary stats being morale instead of something that benefits PvE).

My experience is based on Age of Wushu and EVE Online, and considering going back to the former. These MMOs are built from the ground up for PVP, and their emphasis is not on gear, but on skills. There is no overarching leveling, instead you pick a skill you want to level. In ARR terms for example, there is going to be True Trust 1, 2, 3, and so on. The boost you gain from leveled skills are greater than gear, and leveling skills are the time sinks of the game.