White Mage is Poorly designed compared to Scholar

Pair a paladin and scholar together, then pair a white mage and warrior together, then come back to this.

I am slightly confused by what you guys mean by "shallow". I agree WHM is pretty straight forward and doesn't have "quirks" like our other caster brethren. I'm also confused about where SE is trying to go with WHM. We have really no other addage to our role as a healer other than AOE heals. While this is nice it's kind of disappointing. I read other posts on here that made the statement that while SCHs have crit as a secondary attribute WHM doesn't have much of anything. This statement is completely true. I'd like to see spell speed be more a part of WHM since SCH gets crit (both WHM/SCH rely on piety and det). Maybe they could make a way for PoM to be tied into our speed rating? Possibly make spell speed add to our natural MP regeneration(I'm aware piety does this already)? That way they'd be killing two birds with one stone in terms of WHM mechanics... Just some thoughts. Overall I love my WHM and wouldn't trade it for the world however.

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Originally Posted by Menae

assuming that the 10 secondary = .5% healing number somebody mentioned is correct, that's at absolute most a 15% difference between full 90 gear + 95 weapon vs. that same gear with all the secondary stats removed.

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it is correct and is quite easy to test especially for spellspeed and critical. Though it assume chain-casting.

10 spellspeed is a .5% increase in casting speed you can just do the math based on ability time, .5% faster casting is .5% more HPS

10 crit is 1% crit. 1% crit is a .5% HPS increase, again basic math. To give you an easy example if you managed to accumulate 100% crit chance you'd be doing +50% healing as each crit heals for 50% more. 1% crit is .5% more.

10 det is the hardest to test. However after repeated testing eating a 10 det food added exactly 5 to the healing range of a heal that previously capped at 1002. it brought it to 1007. 5 healing is .5% of 1000.

Which sub stat would you guys like to see for WHM?

Another QQ thread by you, when will it stop. Either quit or change classes. No one cares about you when they can see 10 threads about you complaining on the first page. Each healer has their roles and compliments. For someone who seems to hate WHM so much and love SCH its a wonder why you haven't rerolled. Is this your first MMO?

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Originally Posted by Segata

it is correct and is quite easy to test especially for spellspeed and critical. Though it assume chain-casting.

10 spellspeed is a .5% increase in casting speed you can just do the math based on ability time, .5% faster casting is .5% more HPS

10 crit is 1% crit. 1% crit is a .5% HPS increase, again basic math. To give you an easy example if you managed to accumulate 100% crit chance you'd be doing +50% healing as each crit heals for 50% more. 1% crit is .5% more.

10 det is the hardest to test. However after repeated testing eating a 10 det food added exactly 5 to the healing range of a heal that previously capped at 1002. it brought it to 1007. 5 healing is .5% of 1000.

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I just want to say, you can't say heals do a constant % more. Because even when you're doing 1100 the 10 Det will still only add 5 more then ( from your testing at least ). And 5% of 1100 isn't 5 anymore.

I rather prefer 1000 QQ threads than 1 guy like you Airikay. This is just a thread where people are discussing about their experiences and thoughts. I dont know where you see here QQ

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Originally Posted by Airikay

I just want to say, you can't say heals do a constant % more. Because even when you're doing 1100 the 10 Det will still only add 5 more then ( from your testing at least ). And 5% of 1100 isn't 5 anymore.

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actually it is percent based. and its .5%. not 5%.

I just want to say i really like the ideas of the op
and i hope that maybe SE will listen to you (but i dont think so... most time they dont do)
i would really love to see spel speed matter for my whm as much as crit for sch

dont get me wrong i love the whm...but it would be awesome with faster regen-ticks

so sharazisspecial please keep up the very good work here ;)

and no i do not want the sch get nerfed, i think sch is awesome like it is and should stay like that

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Originally Posted by Airikay

Another QQ thread by you, when will it stop. Either quit or change classes. No one cares about you when they can see 10 threads about you complaining on the first page.

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The maturity level in this thread is so outstanding :D !

Spell Speed should affect our regen rates along with healing rates and it should play a part in natural MP regeneration. When I say this I mean the same should apply to SCH as well. It's only fair.

i think it should not affect our mp-regen-rate because thats to much to ask, like the op said, just an aditional-effect to our regen spell (and the fairy regen -to make it even)
and euphe why are you always making double and triple posts...you know that you can edit you posts

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Originally Posted by YuiSasaki

Well, microing the pet can be tough, till you mastered it at least :>.

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I disagree with this completely now that you can make pet macros and they fixed the issues with the pets blowing their CDs if you manually used embrace.

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Originally Posted by Zavi

euphe why are you always making double and triple posts...you know that you can edit you posts

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That's simple to explain. There's not enough room for all of my characters in a single post. When I type I type :P . Prolly type too much actually... I did screw up on my previous post below though. Working 3rd shift is kicking my arse ._. ...

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Originally Posted by Euphe

That's simple to explain. There's not enough room for all of my characters in a single post. When I type I type :P . Prolly type too much actually...

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if you edit a post you can write more than 1000 chars... just a little tip ;)

Aaah ok cool xD!!! Thank gawd you told me I didn't notice (obviously)... oh jeeze.

Spellspeed stacking isn't really optimal, remember that yes, whilst you'll get that heal off a tenth of a second faster, the overall HP per second rate comes at the expense of mp usage. Det and crit both increase HP/S without costing more mp to achieve, I lean towards Det purely because it's a little more consistent, crit is a nice secondary because it's so useful when I go sch.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Spellspeed stacking isn't really optimal, remember that yes, whilst you'll get that heal off a tenth of a second faster, the overall HP per second rate comes at the expense of mp usage. Det and crit both increase HP/S without costing more mp to achieve, I lean towards Det purely because it's a little more consistent, crit is a nice secondary because it's so useful when I go sch.

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Have you not been in a situation where a few people take unexpected damage right before tulmults/garuda ulti/hellfire? You try to cure2,cure3 or medica them but they die anyway due to the heal not being quick enough. That extra 30hp from det stacking or that extra 5% critical chance from crit stacking won't save you there.

All three stats are underwhelming for whm.

I enjoy using PoM on WARs. When those moments come where they keep taking hits and I just need that slight push to top them off in seconds. PoM + DS = god in most situations imo. Speed makes a difference the only penalty is the fact that it drains our mana much more rapidly. That's why I say it should complement natural regen rates and piety should decide how much MP is naturally regen'd per tick. Just an idea...

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Originally Posted by Burstwolf

Lmfao
1.A fix is not a buff
2.whm complaining about sch heals?I can remember not so long ago Whm with their nose in the air.
3.The level of hate for scholar, now so called op
4.whm wanting scholar nerfed
5.If you want scholar heals then re roll sch.(sounds familiar right)
6.I wounder how many QQ whm are ex scholar who re rolled.
7.2-6 isn't constructive is it, Now you know how scholars felt when they wanted a buff and whm answered.

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You sir, deserves a medal!

All who whine should Learn2play (sound very familiar!!)

One healer shouldn't cover all aspect of heal perfectly, you (WHM) get a better AOE heal, we (SCH) get a better single target heal. Seems pretty balanced.

I have never seen a X2 critical heal.

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Originally Posted by Nofacekiller

4.) Saying double scholar wouldn't do much better doesn't change the fact that people don't like their classes being nerfed for no reason.

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WHM is being nerf for a reason, ppl are spamming Medica II (OP) too casually and then when you pull aggro, you blame the tank for being a noob. When you OOM, you blame SE for giving you broken SoS. You are suppose to use Medica II in-conjunction with Medica. You are suppose to not treat SoS as only a decrease aggro tool, they also regen your mana, so if your SoS is off CD, use it and heal considerately without spamming and you won't need to save it for when you pull aggro from the tank while casting medica II when clearly medica is enough.

*rage mode:off* now i felt better :P

Also yes there was a time when scholars needed to learn how to play their role quickly and they have. WHM. still making the same mistakes same error and same complaint. Some WHM just can't handle them not being the only one that can heal and hate other showing them a better job.

How hard is it to span a 2 min cd skill that gives u unlimited mp and dummy hate control? Nope too hard for man whm apparently.

More sad I bet u some WHM reading this is going wtf skill is this fool talking about?

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Originally Posted by nitram

Also yes there was a time when scholars needed to learn how to play their role quickly and they have. WHM. still making the same mistakes same error and same complaint. Some WHM just can't handle them not being the only one that can heal and hate other showing them a better job.

How hard is it to span a 2 min cd skill that gives u unlimited mp and dummy hate control? Nope too hard for man whm apparently.

More sad I bet u some WHM reading this is going wtf skill is this fool talking about?

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You sir deserve a medal that has 6 letters starting with G and ending with S emblazoned in it, encapsulated with quotation marks :P
Shroud of Saints does not provide "Unlimited Mana", it provides approx 1k MP per 2 minute, if you're looking for skills that provide "Unlimited Mana", please search for "Aetherflow" and "Energy Drain" instead. (Note : Any Scholars that need both Aetherflow and Energy Drain to maintain their mp.... Well let's just say you're still better than Mr Nitram above)

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

WHM is being nerf for a reason, ppl are spamming Medica II (OP) too casually and then when you pull aggro, you blame the tank for being a noob. When you OOM, you blame SE for giving you broken SoS. You are suppose to use Medica II in-conjunction with Medica. You are suppose to not treat SoS as only a decrease aggro tool, they also regen your mana, so if your SoS is off CD, use it and heal considerately without spamming and you won't need to save it for when you pull aggro from the tank while casting medica II when clearly medica is enough.

*rage mode:off* now i felt better :P

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Originally Posted by nitram

Also yes there was a time when scholars needed to learn how to play their role quickly and they have. WHM. still making the same mistakes same error and same complaint. Some WHM just can't handle them not being the only one that can heal and hate other showing them a better job.

How hard is it to span a 2 min cd skill that gives u unlimited mp and dummy hate control? Nope too hard for man whm apparently.

More sad I bet u some WHM reading this is going wtf skill is this fool talking about?

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Medica 2 "OP"? Spamming Shroud of Saints??
I think I speak for Coil groups everywhere when I ask that you please never play WHM EVER, you would fail miserably at it.

Oh man, I love it. Shroud of Saints is infinite MP and destroys your enmity! You can spam it!

SCHs saying WHMs are braindead. Hahaha. I guess I just imagined being able to AFK heal on SCH, and being able to put out near Bene-level heals on a 20 second cooldown.

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Originally Posted by DreamWeaver

*snip* if you're looking for skills that provide "Unlimited Mana", please search for "Aetherflow" and "Energy Drain" instead. (Note : Any Scholars that need both Aetherflow and Energy Drain to maintain their mp.... Well let's just say you're still better than Mr Nitram above)

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With the way you guys spam Medica II, no amount of mana would be suffice~

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Originally Posted by vpc

Medica 2 "OP"? Spamming Shroud of Saints??
I think I speak for Coil groups everywhere when I ask that you please never play WHM EVER, you would fail miserably at it.

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Well, the same group of WHM mocking me and telling me to quit playing SCH if i find it underpowered.

I wonder where are they now.

So conclusion, SCH pet fixed and suddenly WHM whining that SCH is healing better than them?

WHERE are you pre-patch? Did you see WHM thrashing us SCH asking us to L2P? Well, at your face WHM. You deserve every single nerf you get this patch.

*REVENGE IS SWEET*

okok fine, maybe your SoS needs a little attention, they should make it scale to % instead of an outright amount. That i admit could be changed so that WHM will have lesser oom issue.

Yeah, because an asshole WHM who didn't know what he was talking about on release was mean to you, you're painting all WHMs with the same brush now. Gee... What an intelligent guy.

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

Yeah, because an asshole WHM who didn't know what he was talking about on release was mean to you, you're painting all WHMs with the same brush now. Gee... What an intelligent guy.

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

Oh man, I love it. Shroud of Saints is infinite MP and destroys your enmity! You can spam it!

SCHs saying WHMs are braindead. Hahaha. I guess I just imagined being able to AFK heal on SCH, and being able to put out near Bene-level heals on a 20 second cooldown.

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Yup ONE asshole WHM....hmmm....

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

Yup ONE asshole WHM....hmmm....

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Doesn't matter, the point is the same. You're taking a minority's (Incorrect) opinion and applying it to the majority. Even if every WHM on these forums said that, if this game follows the rule of every other game with a forum, <15% of the playerbase actually visits.

But keep being bitter, bro. lol

You should also level WHM for their infinite MP SoS!

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

With the way you guys spam Medica II, no amount of mana would be suffice~

Well, the same group of WHM mocking me and telling me to quit playing SCH if i find it underpowered.

I wonder where are they now.

So conclusion, SCH pet fixed and suddenly WHM whining that SCH is healing better than them?

WHERE are you pre-patch? Did you see WHM thrashing us SCH asking us to L2P? Well, at your face WHM. You deserve every single nerf you get this patch.

*REVENGE IS SWEET*

okok fine, maybe your SoS needs a little attention, they should make it scale to % instead of an outright amount. That i admit could be changed so that WHM will have lesser oom issue.

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No one spams Medica 2, unless you want to die. The reason mana took a hit is now WHM often need to cast more spells to actually heal a raid group and two spells cost more than one.

We are still here, if you actually think SCH is underpowered you should quit. Please.

Well yes, Pet fixes and control are kind of a big part of the class. Not saying its better but more SCH can now fully use their potential.

Actually the changes were intended to be a buff according to Yoshi P regardless of result. Bad Sch do need to L2P, the ones that managed their fairy even before the patch were very good. I sigh when i still see sch with autopilot fairies.

What revenge?

OP- No offense, but didn't you go whm after constantly posting how weak SCH heals were???

Was the grass not greener afterall?

Even if the WHM just uses single heals, compared to the SCH he will run oom after some time. Thats the unfairness actually. Noone said WHM should be able to spam aoe heals all the time. In my opinion there is a change needed.
There is no need to fight who the better healer is. So far my experiences are that in all kind of end-content situations i always prefer WHM/SCH. I never wished for a WHM/WHM or a SCH/SCH combo. Never. WHM/SCH is the absolute dream-team.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Have you not been in a situation where a few people take unexpected damage right before tulmults/garuda ulti/hellfire? You try to cure2,cure3 or medica them but they die anyway due to the heal not being quick enough

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If I couldn't save them with a 1.93 second cure, chances are I wouldn't get them with a 1.88 either. But yes, you are right in that the effect from any secondary stat is entirely mundane and more psychological than real.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

OP- No offense, but didn't you go whm after constantly posting how weak SCH heals were???

Was the grass not greener afterall?

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I started sch because i had all other jobs 50 . Switched over to whm because the other healer in my static is sch.

SCH pre fairy fix had much less healing potential then they do now, their fairy ai and control was awful. With all the changes sch recieved , they are much different then release sch. In fact after the hotfix i made post about how sch was now an amazing tank and spot healer in comparison to whm.

Actually i do like whm more then sch. But i can see the design flaws. Such as the 2 points i mentioned and the reduced mana efficiency from the medica 2 nerf.
I see you choose to take a shot instead of actually adding to the discussion. Like quite a few scholars in this thread.

Not once in my posts did i say nerf sch, sch op and whm is underpowered in comparison to sch . I just said sch was designed better.

SE may of decided to fix sch fairy control because of forums. They can also see now how whm would like to have more synergy with a secondary stat. Also how our presence of mind could be swapped out for a more dynamic ability.

From the start of the game i said how barebones whm is and how they barely had any flavour to it in comparison to other mmo healers like wow priest or even old ffxi whm. No haste, no blink ,no sacred prism etc. The enjoyment comes from the actual encounters and doing it with friends rather then the job itself.

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Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness

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I am not bitter, i am fine/happy actually that our pet no longer hinders our heal, they complement not only me but also my WHM partner in healing when we needed it. Please check in which statement did i classify SoS as infinite mp and then we can take it from there. You look like you are the bitter one, actually you should be, after all you are no longer on the top of the healing chart. *for those who did not get the sarcasm*

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Originally Posted by Eriane

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1. I guess you mean your Medica II Nerf, nope, you will still need to only cast ONE Medica II like you always do, there is a reason another healer is in the group, be it SCH or WHM, they are suppose to heal half of the dmg as well. This is not a race to top the healing chart, trust your other half of healer to do their job.

2. I don't think SCH is underpowered never did mentioned about SCH being underpowered NOW. We are ONCE, but that is due to our pet being broken as hell.

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Originally Posted by Lorilin

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You are right, the best combination is SCH/WHM, never the same type of healer. They complement each other, this game is about team work. It is never a race to top healing chart. Pre-patch SCH suffers for quite some time due to pet being broken. We went to the forum to address this issue and were shunted away by our fellow WHM telling us we are fine, working as intended (pet), l2p, etc. But look at whm now, they are doing the exact same thing we are doing previously. We are suppose to support each other (previously i came here thinking my fellow WHM healer would back me up but i was wrong)

WHM can run oom is because your SoS is somewhat underpowered, this much i can derive. IMO, they should be based on % of mana over X sec instead of a fix amount of mana regen.

I'm not a great Scholar but I usually find myself outhealing a better geared and skilled WHM by quite a margin, because of my unlimited mp. (people keep parsing my hps for some reason, so thats how I know). Anyone else notice the large HPS difference too? Maybe parsers are inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by Lucipurr

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I can't speak for other WHMs, but personally, if the tank is in no danger of dying, I will just throw up a regen, and let the SCH heal up the auto attack damage, I will only start healing the tank during critical phases, for some examples:
1) Titan HM Post Heart, bombs + landslide + Mountain buster period.
2) Garuda HM, when add spawn
3) Ultima HM, laser spawn
4) Garuda EM, add spawn
5) Titan EM, bomb + add phase

I am doing the above, to conserve my mana for these important phases, no point wasting your mana if your partner can easily solo heal for easier phases :P. Naturally, my HPS is always lower compared to the scholar, but when things go south, I know I'll have the MP to bring it back north :).

Additionally, HPS is an extremely poor way to judge the performance of a healer, so if there's anyone in your group use that as an performance indicator, please slap him/her for me :D

Patch Notes, 2.2:

- The spell "Presence of Mind" has been removed and replaced with a passive.
- Presence of Mind (Passive): Increases the effect of spell speed by 50%. Grants the caster a chance equal to %reduction in GCD to have a healing spell cost no mana.
- Heal I now has a 20% chance to proc Improved Cure, which either grants the user 50% increased healing on the next Cure II or Cure III. Lasts 15 seconds.
- Freecure and Overcure are removed.
- Shroud of Saints was not scaling with piety; this has been fixed. White mages should find their mana regen from this ability increased.
- The mana regen from Mage's Ballad has been decreased by 50%. The developers have found that this song allows for trivialization of certain mechanics; in addition, the dependency of healers (especially white mages) on this song has prevented proper balancing of bards. We will be granting bards additional utility to compensate for this change.

Oh well, a man can dream, can't he?

Not bad ideas.

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Originally Posted by Segata

10 crit is 1% crit. 1% crit is a .5% HPS increase, again basic math.

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I would just like to chip in that 10 crit is more like 0.7% crit.