[Petition] We want Red Mage!

So many better classes need to come first before RDM.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

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Yoshi has said doesn't like Haste and likely won't implement it for players. If he did it should go to Time Mage I think. Enemy PGL's get it because they don't build GL stacks. Any "spike" spells should go to a tank, DPS shouldn't be getting hit. "enspells" are Mystic Knight territory, they could fill the tank role and get the spikes as well. Dispel and Refresh are fine but I'm afraid they'd fall back into being Refresh slaves. Also having it come off of GLA gives them a world of defensive cooldowns without a whole lot of use behind them. Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Also having it come off of GLA gives them a world of defensive cooldowns without a whole lot of use behind them. Just my 2 cents.

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Remember, Yoshi P gave that example if Dark Knight were to come from Marauder they could change the base skills to be more Dark Knight related. So new jobs won't be restricted by their base class.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

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SCH already have a form of AOE haste. I'd bet money we're going to see a single target cast of it in some form in the future.

RDM has primarily been a debuffer / buffer. I'd see it's role being similar to Bards. It can keep blaze spikes on the tank, dispel boss and buff group with enthunder/refresh. Just like it did in FFXI.

I only mentioned 2 but in reality, a lot of Gladiator skills will morph into other functionality when they do add another job to the class.

Speak for yourself...I want a dagger class! >.> When they do give us RDM though I hope they do it right. Please please do not clone a WoW job like you did with my favorite class, SMN ; ; SE..be innovative for once!

Unsure how it would be balanced (as I stated earlier) while still maintaining the flavor of the class (they butchered SMN's flavor, after all).

But I add my voice to the throng; RDM plox. Maybe something along the lines of a Magic Knight with Doublecast for cross-class skills or something, idfk.

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Originally Posted by Serdapi

So many better classes need to come first before RDM.

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RDM is the one and only FFI class that isn't present in the game (aside from Ninja, and it's a lot more iconic to the series than Ninja is)

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

RDM has primarily been a debuffer / buffer. I'd see it's role being similar to Bards. It can keep blaze spikes on the tank, dispel boss and buff group with enthunder/refresh. Just like it did in FFXI.

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That's only been their role in FFXI. Everywhere else they've been adept at swordplay with knowledge of both white and black magic along with their signature skill Double Cast for the most part.

I really, really hope Yoshida does not echo that abomination of a job they call Red Mage from Final Fantasy XI.

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Originally Posted by Tanama

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Oh I know. If you read my ideas in my signature I incorporate that use liberally. I think defensive abilities should stay for DRK since they're using their HP already to do damage; they will need that defensive boost from time to time. Now, if RDM were to come off of GLA it would require extensive changes to the base class skills, at which point why not just make a new class in itself? If you have to change more than half of the abilities to make it work well then it should be rethought about. But that's my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Wolf_Gang

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Theirs works differently though. It cannot be maintained indefinitely and it doesn't give a flat boost but rather a % of the users SkS/SpS. While your spell works similarly to theirs, I see no restriction. If Time Mage gets a single target version it will need to have restrictions imposed to prevent its broken usage that we saw in FFXI. RDM was really only a debuffer/buffer in XI and FFTA/2. Every other instance it was a melee with primarily attacking and healing magic getting only a portion of those available to BLM/WHM.

Edit: I should clarify that Yoshi doesn't like the dependance on Haste and the strong focus/requirement it has in XI.

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Originally Posted by Borfin

RDM is the one and only FFI class that isn't present in the game (aside from Ninja, and it's a lot more iconic to the series than Ninja is)

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Thief. Thief advanced into Ninja.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Actually RDM as a core job itself doesn't really work well in a MMO setting...

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That's really going to depend on how you're defining the Red Mage archetype. Red Mage in FF12i wielded the most powerful fire spell (Ardor) and could carry a either a greatsword with heavy armor or a mace and robes. FFTA/2 was 3 direct attacks (fire/ice/lightning), 1 cure, 1 buff, 1 DoT, and 1 debuff, and was still defined mostly by the Doublecast ability. If you want the Red Mage in the FF1 sense -- all magics and melee -- then yes, it's a meaningless addition. That Red Mage existed because there was a limit on the number of characters you could bring. However, the Red Mage as a mixture of magic spells and melee in general is not a problem to execute. "Support" abilities are necessarily a part of all classes already, so like I said, the only place you'll run into trouble with Red Mage is healing spells.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Haste, refresh, phalanx, Enthunder, Enfire, Enaero, Enstone, (etc), Debuffs and Enhancements, etc etc etc.

RDM would be the perfect idea to actually introduce SUPPORT as a role for the DF. you can literally do anything as an RDM, so give us that option. The biggest roadblock from RDMs being true RDMs in FFXIV is the DF.

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*takes deep breath*

None of those associated with Red Mage in any game except FF11, and FF11 was total shit in every possible way.

There will never be a pure support subcategory in ARR. The rule with support is that you can never take it back. Support jobs become essential for content. Every endgame run right now effectively requires BRD, the only semi-support job. The more narrowly-focused you make the support job, the more essential it becomes at endgame and useless it becomes otherwise. Not only that, you can't even make a support job in ARR at this time because you have 5 abilities to do it in. A class cannot be support-focused because it fails to be capable in solo and leveling content. Support jobs are also fundamentally boring as all hell to play. If BRD were pure support, the player would hit a song and then run in circles for 10 minutes while the rest of the team team battles Twintania. That just doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Trystan

The RDM would have to be either so good at everything, that he could fill all roles (healer/tank/dd) as well as a focused job in this area in order to fit into the 4-character-party, OR he has to be made into *either* DD *or* healer *or* tank.

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Red Mage is not a tank or healer (lol @ FF11, though). It's pretty clear to me where it lies within the trinity. The secondary job would have to be a tank (e.g. Mystic Knight) or a healer (something off-the-wall here, since there are no stabby healers about in FF).

//EDIT: Mechanically, either second job role would work. Healer would give you a reason to have a healing spell or two on the class, making it feel more like a Red Mage once you've committed to that DPS role. However, a healer job from hybrid melee class might be a bit tough to implement and doesn't really have a clear starting point. A tank job has a great starting point in Mystic Knight, but lacks any reason to have healing on the class.

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Originally Posted by Borfin

RDM is the one and only FFI class that isn't present in the game (aside from Ninja, and it's a lot more iconic to the series than Ninja is)

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Umm, thief is also ostensibly missing. You have Fighter/Warrior, White and Black Mages, and Blackbelt/Monk represented. The only upgrade job represented is Knight/Paladin, which (like Ninja) has evolved into a different sort of job in its own right.

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Originally Posted by Borfin

Unsure how it would be balanced (as I stated earlier) while still maintaining the flavor of the class (they butchered SMN's flavor, after all).

But I add my voice to the throng; RDM plox. Maybe something along the lines of a Magic Knight with Doublecast for cross-class skills or something, idfk.



RDM is the one and only FFI class that isn't present in the game (aside from Ninja, and it's a lot more iconic to the series than Ninja is)

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Thief is pretty iconic

http://derpicdn.net/media/W1siZiIsIj...o_red-mage.png

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

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I agree. At that point Red Mage should come as it's own base job and perhaps have it unlocked by that idea Yoshida mentioned one time. It entailed having both white mage and black mage leveled in order to unlock it.

You've done a splendid job with your job proposals, btw.

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Thief. Thief advanced into Ninja.

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Oh hey I missed one. Whoops.

Similar iconic status even.

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Originally Posted by Tanama

I agree. At that point Red Mage should come as it's own base job and perhaps have it unlocked by that idea Yoshida mentioned one time. It entailed having both white mage and black mage leveled in order to unlock it.

You've done a splendid job with your job proposals, btw.

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I kind of hope it does require finishing BLM and WHM storylines but not really sure how to fit it in story wise with that concept. But it would be really neat to have "advanced classes" unlocked by jobs so that way not every Joe could start the game as every class and those who have gotten every job storyline finished have something to progress to. EE did something like this where you would need to have reached a certain level in order to unlock a specific class through a quest. That did make it sort of unbalanced though but was still neat.

And thanks for the compliment, appreciated. They do need some work still and I update them when I think of ways of improving them but still nice to hear positive feedback :).

I would like to see more focus on the melee side of RDM in order to put their armour and weapon to actual use.

In 11, the enspells were static,you cast it and they lasted for a short time, there was no way to really enhance it further. Therefore:

I would like a correlation between Magic and Weaponskills whereby each combo off the other and also enhance the other to make up for having low tier skills. This would mimic and expand upon Vivi/Steiner combo in FF9. Both the magic and melee side would be actively involved and not just a buff that lasts a short while like in 11.

Coupled with things like Double/Doublecast, that could be quite powerful.

I think their level 50 spell/ability should be "Triple" from FF8.

Rather have Dark knight or Blue mage. Red mage is destined to suck like it does in every final fantasy game.

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Originally Posted by XNihili

Some even said that FFXI RDM was an abomination ...

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It was, and I hope that thing stays where it is rather than ruin things in this game.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Couple of points:

Yoshi has already said they plan to add RDM.
He's said RDM will likely require WHM and BLM to unlock.

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This I'm hoping is lip service along the lines of "lol people playing WAR havent researched it enough". If he had gone out and said that RDM was gonna be a pure caster in FFXIV (at which point I would get my torch and pitchfork and undig the several RDM threads where we've been asking SE to NOT do that again), I may have believed that quote from Yoshida.

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Honestly it doesn't take much imagination to come up with ways they could implement it without being OP. Those of you saying it wouldn't work aren't really considering ways of adapting it rather than just outright copying it from another game in the series. A job that self buffs its melee offense with magic whilst having proccing nukes and some emergency/support white magic to fall back on wouldn't be OP. If anything it would fall into a similar category as BRD is in now.

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Self-buffing works when you have a ton of abilities and a class that can conceivably support that sort of design. FFXIV does not on both fronts, since jobs are limited to 5 abilities and a base class should not have self buffing to that extent. Even then I would note the amount of time lost self-buffing and time lost not hitting things with a rapier.

The elemental wheel doesn't matter much and would simply bloat a RDM's spell list if you gave him enspells of each element. Like debuffs that were blended into BLM nukes, those have to be sparse and blended into sword techniques.

Upvote for a Duelle-styled RDM. Seriously, I don't think I've seen a RDM post from him that I didn't like.

As for any spells/abilities on RDM, non-elemental stuff. Or water. Seriously, one water spell in the entire game? But focus RDM on physical DD

And /facepalm for anyone wanting XI-style RDMs. Also, FF1 would like a word with everyone saying that RDMs weren't originally DDs. EVERYONE was a DD originally. EVEN WHM. Seriously, you can't tell me there wasn't a point somewhere (especially the remakes of FF1) where you just said f-it and just meleed with the BLM & WHM.

Add in a /facepalm to those that don't think RDM would work but think BLU will...

To those wanting FFXI's Red Mage and others like their Ninja tank. Believe me, none of that would work in ARR. Of the few MMORPGs I have played in the past, FFXI's job system was by far the worst. Hiromichi Tanaka's team would overnerf some jobs into oblivion and release broken job mechanics that are beyond repair.

FFXI's Red Mage is a good example. Earlier in the game's lifetime, RDM was so powerful that it could solo high level monsters other jobs could only dream of doing. Sometime later it was hit with the nerf bat and it has yet to recover. EDIT: I forgot to add that the development team early on gave RDM the Refresh spell and they became nothing but a mana and Haste battery. Their sword skills were lackluster so for FFXI's lifetime RDM stood in the back row with other mages, using a staff, enfeebling the monster and providing Refresh and Haste to their party members.

FFXI's Ninja was originally designed to be an evasive support DPS with it's Ninjutsu, throwing skill and their dual wield. Players took the Utsusemi Shadows + Warrior's provoke, alongside with Thief's trick attack ability and turned Ninja into a nigh invincible shadow-blinking tank. I remember the development team slightly nerfing shadows to combat it somewhat but in the end, embraced it as a tank and released some enmity+ gear. Right now, Ninja as well as some other jobs aren't even considered for the high level content they are doing now with the Seekers of Adoulin expansion.

There are so many jobs that are or still aren't working as intended in FFXI. The entire job system is a mess and needs an ARR style makeover. If or when Red Mage is brought to FFXIV, I hope it is absolutely nothing like FFXI's rendition.

Red mage is literally the embodiment of mediocrity and I don't want it. I don't understand why people want this. It was a redundant job in XI until it was shoehorned into a debuff role early in its life, and later nobody even cared about debuffing in XI so RDM was thrown by the wayside. I don't really see how it could work in XIV, especially when we have WHM and SCH both somewhat imitating its overall functionality posessing both heals and damage spells.

Blue mage and its set spell system from XI could work well here. Geomancer could also work well in a similar role to what it got in XI, but with much more fluid control mechanics.

Thief, Ninja, and SAM have all also been hinted at by Yoshida, and all are ones i'd prefer over RDM. Then there's musketeer and w/e job it gets.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

This I'm hoping is lip service along the lines of "lol people playing WAR havent researched it enough". If he had gone out and said that RDM was gonna be a pure caster in FFXIV (at which point I would get my torch and pitchfork and undig the several RDM threads where we've been asking SE to NOT do that again), I may have believed that quote from Yoshida.

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Eh? No one ever said anything about RDM being a pure caster... Where you getting that from? The fact is RDM is mostly defined by its ability to wield white and black magic simultaneously so it would make the most sense for the job to be unlocked in this way. You realise that the requirements to unlock the job don't have to be the same classes/jobs that become the job right? It's quite feasible that future job unlocks require combinations completely separate from the base class the job branches from. If there is a 'fencer' class or something similar you would need WHM and BLM leveled to gain access to RDM as an extension of FNC.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Self-buffing works when you have a ton of abilities and a class that can conceivably support that sort of design. FFXIV does not on both fronts, since jobs are limited to 5 abilities and a base class should not have self buffing to that extent. Even then I would note the amount of time lost self-buffing and time lost not hitting things with a rapier.

The elemental wheel doesn't matter much and would simply bloat a RDM's spell list if you gave him enspells of each element. Like debuffs that were blended into BLM nukes, those have to be sparse and blended into sword techniques.

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Please re-read the part in my post explaining how you people have no imagination. You just kind of proved my point. Everything you just criticised could work very easily if you simply accommodate for it.

Why should a base class not have that level of self-buffing if the entire class mechanic revolves around it?

Time lost buffing does mean time not hitting mobs, yes, but I would have thought anyone could see that a small numbers tweak would fix that by allowing them to do more damage to make up for the 'downtime'. BLM has the same downtime when they switch to blizzard spells to refresh MP. They do much higher damage than other jobs with their fire spells to make up for it.

As for the enspells... you know it's not that hard to simply give each element extra perks, like wind increasing attack speed or fire adding a DOT effect.

Seriously, why are you so unimaginative? Stop saying things won't work just because RDM in previous games did them a certain way.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Seriously, why are you so unimaginative? Stop saying things won't work just because RDM in previous games did them a certain way.

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Oh he's quite imaginative when it comes to RDM and perhaps one of the few people who truly shares the same amount of passion about the job as I have. He's also one of the few folks that seem to consider actual context of the game and it's mechanics, consider balance and long term effects, and put them in a realistic setting of balance.

But anyways, he's not wrong. Many of us who shared the abysmal existence of FFXI's RDM know how well those support heavy roles turn out in an MMO setting and we truly do not want to repeat the cycle of... well the cycle. On top of that we do have a severely limited amount of skill slots to actually implement these abilities, and if we put all/most of the specialization into the class the jobs specialization is kind of lost and moot, and despite wanting to share schools of magic with WHM/BLM, FFXIV's setup makes it unfeasible to have a broad spectrum of spells and versatility without being under/overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Tanama

That's only been their role in FFXI. Everywhere else they've been adept at swordplay with knowledge of both white and black magic along with their signature skill Double Cast for the most part.

I really, really hope Yoshida does not echo that abomination of a job they call Red Mage from Final Fantasy XI.

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funny i remember Red mages one shottin people in FFXI

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Red mage is destined to suck like it does in every final fantasy game.

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Probably the most broken and op class in tactics, same in XI. People just don't know.

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

Probably the most broken and op class in tactics, same in XI. People just don't know.

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What bootleg place did you get FFT that had Red Mage?

I aprove this !!!

RDM are wanted :)

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Originally Posted by MaethusXion

What bootleg place did you get FFT that had Red Mage?

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She's probably referring to FF Tactics Advance which indeed had RDM as a Job - but yes, RDM was never in the original (and superior) FFT, all it had was WHM and BLM (mistranslated as 'Priest' and 'Wizard' respectively in the original PSX version, ;)).

/signed!

Give me my RDM back! It's the only job I really love to play.

RDM would need an overhaul from what we're used to, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing it back.

Can we give Square time to make and release new classes before we go up in arms demanding the classes we want? The games been out 4 months give it some time o.o

Signed, hell yeah.

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Originally Posted by MaethusXion

What bootleg place did you get FFT that had Red Mage?

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Final Fantasy Tactics Advance for the gameboy advance. Red mage class with summoner ability subbed in allowed for doublecast summons. Very powerful combo.