[dev1058] Say no to the hate meter.

I think the dev team seems like they are starting to know what their doing with the game. I dont see why this feature would be bad. Again I do wish people would have learned by now to wait and see and the judge and cry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

You're still going to play pretty much exactly how you were before, you'll just know the state of your aggro now. If you know how to manage it without the meter you'll be doing pretty much the same thing with the meter.

Also having the meter allows you to push the limits of what you can do without having to worry about pulling hate. If you know you've got a decent amount of leeway with the hate you can go crazy and try things you may not have been willing to do so before without knowing.

All this does is take the guess work and speculation out. The mechanics work the exact same way with or without the meter.

---

This.

I think it's funny that people are acting like holding hate is some secret art that needs to be mastered. In XI all Paladin did was voke, cure cure cure, voke cure cure cure, WS here and there, more voking. Nin tanking is a totally different story, so I won't even get into that.

The reason I bring up Paladin is because Gladiator and Pug are the only real tanks in this game (at the moment, and unless you equip their voking abilities to other classes), and they pretty much follow that same strategy. With that said, it takes little to no SKILL to tank, you just need to know how to spam voke, and hope that your mages aren't idiots that spam high level spells. The meter won't change the way tanks play their classes, it will just give them more options other than "uhhh, I guess I'll just throw another voke, 'cause I don't know whether or not I'll maintain hate".

Again, this is all based on the current system. For all we know the new system will take advantage of the meter with skills and battle regimens, or something like that.

In summary, people are going to bitch about every little change that happens regardless of what I say, but please don't knock it before we've even had time to try it. Especially since we don't even know how it will be applied to the new battle system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chezen

@Preypacer

Whatever you might have thought about my examples, you got the purpose of them. Yes it's a game, but hate meters have to do with the life or death of the party. There has probably been thousands of skills, far better examples than the ones off the top of my head I'm sure, that has been lost over time due to modern technology. If you are going to call it a crutch, you will have to call those advances crutches as well. In the meantime, someone who might have otherwise been very good at a job except needing that one tool, might be less successful at his job, and be overlooked due to poor performance.

---

Actually, no.

The point of my responses was that your analogies were flawed in the case of using an axe versus using a power saw. And in the case of having a tumor checked, was completely and abysmally off in the weeds.

With the axe/chainsaw comparison, your reasoning is flawed because as I explained, in either case, the user has to gain skill in each tool by using it and finding for themselves what angles or approaches yield the best result. There is no guide or gauge showing them if they're getting more or less effective. Not really sure how you could read my responses and twist them into somehow validating your statements.

As for the tumor one... You are trying to equate life or death in reality to life or death in a game. There is no comparison. Period.

In real life, the doctor making a mistake and mis-diagnosing a tumor as benign is life threatening, especially if it's ignored early enough to have been properly treated with the correct diagnosis. There is no "resurrecting". There are no home points to return to. There is no "gear damage" to repair. If a tumor is wrongly diagnosed and it leads into an advanced stage of cancer that can't be dealt with... That's it. Game Over.

It's okay to make mistakes in a game because if you fail, and your party wipes, you get to come back, try again and hopefully get it right. Real life doesn't offer that option.

Really not that difficult a concept to grasp.

It's appalling, frankly, that you would make such a comparison to begin with, and then continue to argue it as "it's the life or death of the party".

FFS, get some perspective before you start whimsically throwing out comparisons like that. And find a better analogy while you're at it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chezen

There is more to each job than just watching aggro. A good tank keeps an eye on the entire party’s needs, making sure everyone is ready before beginning the fight. A good healer watches the party’s back, and compensates for the party until they can respond to whatever threat came from left field. A good dps knows to help keep aggro off the healer. These are things no tools will compensate for.

---

The meters remove the need for players to learn where that balance is by hands-on-experience, and replaces it with a meter that spells it out for them.

It's not the end result I'm arguing against... It's the means of getting that result.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chezen

As for telling someone how to play, that comes from both sides. I’m sorry you were refused by so many, but that just suggests that the majority like and want addons. I personally never used any, other than a dmg meter to measure my performance, and whatever was built in the game. But by saying no one should use a meter, you are effectively telling people they should play like you. That is why the toggles have been made available. Anyone who wants to be that skilled, or have the mystery in the fight, can if they choose.

---

No... I'm not telling people to play like me. I'm expressing my point of view that it's far more interesting and challenging to learn a mob's behavior by paying attention to the flow of battle to learn the most effective tactics to maintain or mitigate aggro with them, than to look instead at a meter that spells it out for you.

You disagree, that's fine. But do not twist my words around into some kind of strawman to do so.

I support having a hate meter. People will eventually make one anyways with third party mods, and it's better to have the game community understand the mechanics than to have them rely on intuition and superstition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Preypacer

The meters remove the need for players to learn where that balance is by hands-on-experience, and replaces it with a meter that spells it out for them.

---

By learning through hands-on-experience do you mean accidentally pulling hate, dying and getting your party killed because now the monster's AoE attack is facing the squishy characters?

The hate meter takes out the guess work and just shows you, this does this. You still have to use your own better judgement on when to use certain things, especially if they generate a lot of hate. You still have to know how to mitigate hate generated as well as lower it if need be. If you don't know how to do these things on your class you're an unskilled player and will pull hate.

As for skilled players, enmity control will be pretty much the same. Though as I said before you can try to push the line of how much you can get away with while you're riding the line of pulling hate or not. You can more effectively use your actions without having to worry about pulling hate accidentally because of a miscalculation due to the amount of speculation involved.

That being said I don't really care how they do it. Numbers are fine, % is fine, even a more ambiguous system is fine. It doesn't have to be spelled out exactly but however they do it I'm still going to be playing the game and enjoying my time.

Hate meter is a great addition. Not only will it let players know what's going on, but it will allow the developers to do more novel things with hate that would have otherwise utterly frustrated the player base before. Now that everyone knows what hate is doing, the devs are more free to create new hate strategies based on different mobs, etc.

Knowing your hate is also useless if you can't do anything about it, so it's fine. In many cases, knowing your hate will not save you. If your tank is taking way too much damage, knowing you're about to surpass the tank in hate as his healer doesn't present any solutions to that problem to you. It just confirms what you already fear--you're about to die.

Overall I say no to having a hate meter, in this regard there is fun in the mystery of not knowing this detail. It keeps you on your toes because you dont know, and makes things interesting when someone else pulls hate. If they do have to implement this, I would only want to be able to see my own hate meter...

Even better if they can perhaps make an ability learned similar to a scan that can show everyones hate for 10 seconds, and is on a 3-5 minute cooldown. Perhaps even have a few different type of scan abilities, with fair cooldown timers. One that can show hp/mp of a monster or something like this.

It is indeed more fun to learn by experience even at the cost of dying/wiping...it's what makes things memorable.

I'd vote for no threat meter, but it might be a good idea to give a hint that a mob is going to turn to you soon like displaying a message "Mob is starring at you angrily" in the log.

Hate meter? No, thanks. Why make it more easier instead of thinking about what you are doing in a battle?
Say no to "brain afk" gamestyle...

You can see what happened when you show the enmity meter in WoW/clones. Developers just work around it to the point it's worthless or completely standard.

In WoW you have fights that are plain old "tank and spank" because everyone can calculate their hate and always be one step above. (aka min-maxing the hate meter)

or

You have fights that constantly screw it up, making it worthless, like hate resets, attack lowest, attack random hate, hate deducting, etc.

Basically it's more or less worthless in hindsight unless they make it a "fuzzy" hate meter. One that doesn't really show enmity, but enmity-ish responses. Usually reserved for animations (which way he's facing etc).

Since FF14 is so cheap when it comes to animations, a fuzzy hate meter will prove useful...though really weird...like a big pointy arrow at the person it's attacking...is practical...but really dumb.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arcell

You're still going to play pretty much exactly how you were before, you'll just know the state of your aggro now. If you know how to manage it without the meter you'll be doing pretty much the same thing with the meter.

Also having the meter allows you to push the limits of what you can do without having to worry about pulling hate. If you know you've got a decent amount of leeway with the hate you can go crazy and try things you may not have been willing to do so before without knowing.

All this does is take the guess work and speculation out. The mechanics work the exact same way with or without the meter.

---

I know I said let's just agree to disagree but I just can't help it. I've been trying to comprehend this train of thought since you've posted this but I must say, I strongly disagree. I've read it over and over, but every time I do, it just makes less and less sense.

I do not believe that people will play their jobs the same way they are now once this is implemented. The only thing I see this tool doing is making people avoid hitting 100% enmity, which generally equates to people putting less effort into a fight. I'm speaking for everyone but the tank of course, and I'll elaborate on that a little later. This brings me to my next point.

I also don't believe that implementing this will encourage people to try things they might not have done before. If you're not already trying to play your job to the fullest without this system then you're just gimping yourself. And to think that a tool like this is needed to make people play their jobs as efficiently as possible is just sad. Is it me or is today's gamer generation really that unconfident in their decision making abilities that they need tools to tell them what to do?

Taking out the guesswork is the exact reason we don't want this. The human body has an organ for these kinds of things, it's called the brain. Any element of a battle system that requires me to think before acting is a good one. Why on earth they would even consider adding this meter is beyond me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsuga

This.

I think it's funny that people are acting like holding hate is some secret art that needs to be mastered. In XI all Paladin did was voke, cure cure cure, voke cure cure cure, WS here and there, more voking. Nin tanking is a totally different story, so I won't even get into that.

The reason I bring up Paladin is because Gladiator and Pug are the only real tanks in this game (at the moment, and unless you equip their voking abilities to other classes), and they pretty much follow that same strategy. With that said, it takes little to no SKILL to tank, you just need to know how to spam voke, and hope that your mages aren't idiots that spam high level spells. The meter won't change the way tanks play their classes, it will just give them more options other than "uhhh, I guess I'll just throw another voke, 'cause I don't know whether or not I'll maintain hate".

Again, this is all based on the current system. For all we know the new system will take advantage of the meter with skills and battle regimens, or something like that.

In summary, people are going to bitch about every little change that happens regardless of what I say, but please don't knock it before we've even had time to try it. Especially since we don't even know how it will be applied to the new battle system.

---

I don't think I remember anyone saying that hate management was some type of secret art that has to be mastered. Does it require you to think? Absolutely. Is it beyond an average person's ability to comprehend? I certainly hope not. I played many jobs in FFXI as an example. Among those were both PLD and NIN. And I must say, NIN was much more fun because it required a little more strategy (though not much) than the latter. I don't think this has anything to do with the hate meter though, and this is why:

What I got from the battle reform post is that the percentage you see is the percentage of hate you have compared to the person with aggro. So logically this would mean that the person with aggro will be at 100% hate. What does that mean for tanks? The hate meter is absolutely useless to them. They will always be at 100% hate. This will not change how people tank, at all. It won't give them other options as you have suggested. Provoke and Taunt will still be spammed the same way it is now.

The only thing this meter will do is make players (not tanks) not try as hard because no one will want to cross the 100% hate threshold. This doesn't add any form of strategy at all. It just makes battle easier, something I thought was one of the biggest complaints about this game.

The only thing I agree with in your post, Tsuga, is the fact that we don't know how this meter will affect the new battle system. Even after considering that, I still don't see any purpose for it other than holding people's hands. If anyone can present any PROs for the hate meter that doesn't include making the game easier I'm all ears.

HP bars, well this makes the game really easy, i mean come on, i can adjust my strategy based on the creatures remaining hp. Healers have it too easy because they know we can take a few more hits before they have to cure.

MP bars, you should simply keep count of your spells

Gear, this is a no brainer, way to much info, why should we know it makes our evasion this exact amount better, or that it will improve our gathering skills


I'm being sarcastic of course, but the point i'm trying to make is that this is simply a little more information, and doesn't make lazy players into better players.
There can only be so many visual cues as to monster hate, this is a simple way to improve this limitation.
Also the amount of enmity fluxuates constantly durring a battle, this allows us to better guage it and not have to simply go oh, i should hold back for a second, as you may find battles where this idea of thought simply won't work.
For example if a squishy damage dealer pulls hate and gets one shotted by a tp move that could have completely been avoided.
Or the pug that is used to holding back because gladiators regularly have trouble hold hate off them. (this happens to me regularly with regular attacks with out of sight and gladiators with intimidation and the best gear in the game)

Now it's true they are reworking the enmity system and it may make management easier and less unpredictable but for now this sounds like a solid feature, and one to be used strategically.

I think the overall general complaint here is based on an assumption that adding a Hate Meter will essentially make this game just a little bit easier. At this present time thats my complaint with this idea as well.

Would be great if we could some kind of answer from the Devs about the reasoning behind wanting to add this? If they have plans to implement strategy based around this then i would be all for exploring / discussing further how that works...

If the devs intentions are just to add the hate meter, just because- then I think it's safe to assume that it will only make this game easier. Which is exactly what they said they weren't trying to do. We def need some sort of clarification on this part from the devs.

Hate meter just for Hate meter sake I believe is bad. We've been getting along fine with out it, why add it now Devs? I've been saying this for a long time that it feels like you guys are putting training wheels on this game. The natural progression I thought was to take them off after you learn. I feel like we are digressing with what you need to know about this game, because they are making everything visible to us.

I think a more clever way to add a metric of Hate is in the form of ability with a cooldown.

That way it's helpful for an instant during a battle. Doesn't completely hold our hands, while still giving us the option to have hate displayed if we want.

If there is a hate meter, make it generic, like a color outline that changes around the players name. Make it just enough to warn of impending danger, but not enough to know when you will get smacked in the face.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

If anyone can present any PROs for the hate meter that doesn't include making the game easier I'm all ears.

---

PROS:

-Potential for tank to do something OTHER THAN "voke, cure cure cure, voke, cure cure cure, WS, voke, cure cure cure".

-Potential for Weapon Skills that take advantage of hate percentage - for example: "Weapon skill does ___ base damage, or +20% dmg if hate is above 80%". This would be great for tanks, because it would encourage good hate management, and the opportunity to do something aside from being a voke bot.

-Potential Battle Regimen Integration - for example: Regimen 1: "The last melee on ___ regimen gets a 30% hate boost." Regimen 2: "Regimen lowers mob magic defense, and if last melee in the regimen's hate is above 90% Party gets refresh buff". This would encourage COMBOING of regimens, and COMBOING of weapon skills.

-Mages/Melee KNOW (heaven forbid we know what's happening in the game we're playing) when the mage is gonna get hate, and can plan accordingly, rather than just being surprised when the mob turns around and noms the mage's head off.

-Last PRO, it won't change the way anybody tanks, it will only open up more opportunities for the party to have some variety in its strategy - as highlighted by pro 1, tanks won't be just VOKING non-stop, mages won't just be NUKING non-stop, and people will be able to plan their next move according to the flow of hate.

Note, these are just some simple ideas that I thought of off the top of my head, WITHOUT knowing what this future battle system will bring us. I'm sure the dev team has way better ideas than I do on this, so I'm still giving them the benefit of the doubt.

CONS (according to everyone else) -

- Hate meter will make tanking too easy (as if it wasn't all ready easy... voke, cure cure cure, voke, cure cure cure).

IMO, it sounds like the CONS people think that tanking is difficult, or challenging as it is, and that watching a mob turn around and bitch slap the mages takes some sort of skill. Sorry, as hate management is right now, it's either you're holding the hate, and your mages/DDs aren't getting slapped, or they are getting slapped. There's no strategy to watching a mob slap the rest of your party.

Now, IF the mobs gave some sort of visual cue, such as turning around and looking at the target it's about to aggro before it does it, THAT would require some attention for the tank to notice, and know to voke. As it is right now, there's pretty much NOTHING that makes tanking challenging. I may ALMOST be in the same boat as you guys if it weren't for this fact.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cogs

I think the overall general complaint here is based on an assumption that adding a Hate Meter will essentially make this game just a little bit easier. At this present time thats my complaint with this idea as well.

---

Right now the game is super easy, there is little to no strategy even when it comes to NMs, it is little more than a zerg and the NMs have become so easy, it's little more than 5-10mins for our ls, though keep in mind we were doing 5-6 man parties on them before they made them easier with party size changes.

The devs have stated that they want the game to present more of a challenge and not by simply making the enemies stronger. So I don't think you'll have to worry about the hate meter being added simply for the sake of adding it.
I have a strong feeling that hate management is going to be a key part of future party content.

Tsuga, I think you're completely missing the point we're trying to get across. This hate meter has NOTHING to do with tanking, period. It directly affects everyone but the tank. The only way it affects tanking is that everyone else will now know exactly where the line is between pulling hate or not pulling hate. This means that the tank now knows that he will never lose hate. However, I guarantee you that even after this is implemented tanks will still spam hate generating abilities. Why? Because they still raise their enmity with those abilities, which in turn lowers everyone else's enmity, which lets them do what they're supposed to do, without pulling hate. It's what tanks do, no one is saying this will make playing a tank easier/different.

The reason they're implementing this is so everyone else in the party knows where they stand in terms of enmity, and to adjust their actions accordingly so that they don't take hate.

People have been playing without a hate meter for years with no complaints. It doesn't take a genius to know how to control hate. But it's still much more fun to judge your enmity yourself rather than having something tell you. Again, I'm not talking about tanks. I'm referring to everyone else in the party.

With that out of the way...

You make 2 good PROs, although they are still purely speculation, Weapon Skills and BRs. If what you suggest is really something they plan to do then yes, I can see how having a hate meter will add strategy to a battle. Because then there's a real tactical reason for us to see what our enmity is at. If this is what the battle team has planned for us then I would support a hate meter. I think incorporating enmity levels into Weapons Skill/BR parameters is a great a idea. Although I think it will be a long time before we see anything like this. We're going to have to wait for more info from the devs to discuss this a little more though, I think.

The rest of your PROs all seem to revolve around tanking and avoiding pulling aggro. These are things that any competent party should be able to control just fine without a meter.

If they want to make enmity play a role in which Weapons Skills and BRs we use then by all means, give us the meter. But if it's only to help us manage hate, there's no need for it.

I'm going to try and say this as absolutely concisely as possible:

The ability to intuit one's enmity level without a hate meter (as a mage/damage dealer) is a skill that is based on one's experience as a player. It is one of the few things in a MMORPG where the person behind the keyboard matters, and not just the character in-game.

The lack of information about the monster's enmity list (except for knowing who is at the very top) is one of the biggest things that 1. makes battle exciting, and 2. makes a difference when the players are actually skilled at their jobs.

As a tank (this depends on whether they choose to implement volatile and cumulative enmity like in ffxi), it is your skill as a player that let's you intuit that you've been beaten up so much that you need to save up a big VE spike ability for when the monster turns its eyes towards the healer. So yes, to all the people saying that tanks are just going to "voke cure cure cure cure voke cure cure cure cure" ad infinitum, there IS more to tanking than that.

As a damage dealer, a skilled player will be able to "ride the hate line", dealing as much damage as humanly possible without taking hate. With the enmity meter, this is no longer a skill that requires any thought. This is simply "press buttons until meter reaches point A". We should not be endorsing changes that bring the game closer to ProgressQuest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Tsuga, I think you're completely missing the point we're trying to get across. This hate meter has NOTHING to do with tanking, period. It directly affects everyone but the tank. The only way it affects tanking is that everyone else will now know exactly where the line is between pulling hate or not pulling hate. This means that the tank now knows that he will never lose hate. However, I guarantee you that even after this is implemented tanks will still spam hate generating abilities. Why? Because they still raise their enmity with those abilities, which in turn lowers everyone else's enmity, which lets them do what they're supposed to do, without pulling hate. It's what tanks do, no one is saying this will make playing a tank easier/different.

The reason they're implementing this is so everyone else in the party knows where they stand in terms of enmity, and to adjust their actions accordingly so that they don't take hate.

People have been playing without a hate meter for years with no complaints. It doesn't take a genius to know how to control hate. But it's still much more fun to judge your enmity yourself rather than having something tell you. Again, I'm not talking about tanks. I'm referring to everyone else in the party.

With that out of the way...

You make 2 good PROs, although they are still purely speculation, Weapon Skills and BRs. If what you suggest is really something they plan to do then yes, I can see how having a hate meter will add strategy to a battle. Because then there's a real tactical reason for us to see what our enmity is at. If this is what the battle team has planned for us then I would support a hate meter. I think incorporating enmity levels into Weapons Skill/BR parameters is a great a idea. Although I think it will be a long time before we see anything like this. We're going to have to wait for more info from the devs to discuss this a little more though, I think.

The rest of your PROs all seem to revolve around tanking and avoiding pulling aggro. These are things that any competent party should be able to control just fine without a meter.

If they want to make enmity play a role in which Weapons Skills and BRs we use then by all means, give us the meter. But if it's only to help us manage hate, there's no need for it.

---

They're introducing a new battle system. While my points were merely ideas and speculation based on no fact, we DO know that this system is changing. I'd rather see what the hate meter offers for this new system, that sit here and bitch about something that we know practically nothing about. This game will never evolve if everyone chews out the devs when a new, potentially game evolving feature gets announced. If anything we should be throwing ideas out there for the devs to make good use of the hate meter, rather than just saying "keep it the same, I like not knowing when I'm gonna get my face chewed off by a peiste".

I understand what YOU are saying, but the OP and a lot of the other people in this thread seem to think that tanking requires some ounce of skill that would be negated by a hate meter. It doesn't, and it won't be. Mages are still going to cure the tank when they need to, they will just know whether or not they will be getting aggro after doing so. If mages didn't do this, they would be ousted from the party, and there would really be no reason for partying to begin with. The hate meter won't turn everyone in to a bunch of cowards that fear aggro, if anything it will prepare the party even more for preventing aggro from leaving the tank. Saying this is a problem is moot, because like you said, the tanks will likely STILL "voke, cure cure cure, voke cure cure cure" the way they do now. The hate meter will simply be a tool to reference when they should time their vokes between dealing damage/tossing cures.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WinterNightz

I'm going to try and say this as absolutely concisely as possible:

The ability to intuit one's enmity level without a hate meter (as a mage/damage dealer) is a skill that is based on one's experience as a player. It is one of the few things in a MMORPG where the person behind the keyboard matters, and not just the character in-game.

The lack of information about the monster's enmity list (except for knowing who is at the very top) is one of the biggest things that 1. makes battle exciting, and 2. makes a difference when the players are actually skilled at their jobs.

As a tank (this depends on whether they choose to implement volatile and cumulative enmity like in ffxi), it is your skill as a player that let's you intuit that you've been beaten up so much that you need to save up a big VE spike ability for when the monster turns its eyes towards the healer. So yes, to all the people saying that tanks are just going to "voke cure cure cure cure voke cure cure cure cure" ad infinitum, there IS more to tanking than that.

As a damage dealer, a skilled player will be able to "ride the hate line", dealing as much damage as humanly possible without taking hate. With the enmity meter, this is no longer a skill that requires any thought. This is simply "press buttons until meter reaches point A". We should not be endorsing changes that bring the game closer to ProgressQuest.

---

Very well said.

Trying not to be personal here - for those who think tanking is all about voke cure cure cure voke cure cure cure, I'd say that person is at best an average tank, at least in the context of FFXI. Being a tank, your ability to hold hate directly control the pace of the battle (ie: total damage that can be done to the mob). Since enmity deteriorates over time other than cures and damage you did or taken, being able to time your job abilities/spells around the team without wasting timers show that you've put some thoughts into playing a tank....and this is what separates good tanks from the average ones. Oh and btw, thought it's situational, but there also times where you want to loosen hate in FFXI by turning around so that the THF can do Sneak/Trick attack onto you instead of a DD melee.

(Similar can be said to good healers they don't just spam cure all day long till the mob turns around but that's another story)

Wait, isn't the entirety of hate management at the moment "Don't buff unless the tank has been buffing"? I mean, I know when I tank, that's pretty much literally all I do: Punch (to start the fight), 'voke, taunt, buff, buff, buff, buff, 'voke, buff, buff, buff, taunt, 'voke. . . crap, I'm out of buttons, guess I should punch, 'voke. . .

Pretty much the only way to pull hate in this game is to buff and use things that specifically give you enmity. Granted, I can't speak much for the mage classes, because I don't play them much; but the only time I've ever seen them pull aggro (assuming the tank is trying at all) is with AoE buffs. Even then, after the battle's been going for a few, that doesn't really work, either.

What I'm getting at here is that I don't see this changing how anyone will play. We've all agreed that nothing changes for the tank, but I don't see anything changing for the dps/healers, either. Once the tank firmly establishes hate (which, remember hasn't changed at all), everyone else will open up just as much as they used to, if not moreso.

Since we have limited info on the new battle system I cannot say for sure what adding a hate meter into the game will do. i am sure SE could come up with a way to make it skillful and fun. The following comments are based on why I would not want a hate meter in FFXIV "As it is currently" or in FFXI since I have played both games.


I think a hate meter just makes the game more predictable which sounds boring to me. As a healer I want to make quick calculations in my head in order to decide if I should cast Cure 3 in the heat of battle over Cure 2. Because Cure 3 might heal my tank up enough to take an extra hit or two so I can have time to cast cure 2 save a DD who is off tanking a add. But Cure 3 might also pull the hate over to me which means the battle may turn a different way. By adding the hate meter you are taking this dynamic away and to me it is these things that make combat fun. Hitting the same 5 keys over and over again trying to keep a meter from filling to full is not fun to me.

Depending on how and if the new battle changes actually find a way to thoughtfully implement a skill-full way utilizing a tool such as a hate meter. That's still all it is, "a metric of hate". We need to ask ourselves is it something that is really Needed?
Rather SE needs to tell us Why it is needed first before implementing it.

At the present state of the game I don't believe it's needed at all. Do I believe that SE will totally revolutionize the new battle system that a hate meter will need to be implemented. No I don't. The Dev's past few updates there have been relevant complaints from the FFXIV fan base about the game being made too easy with having implemented such things such as the "icon" next to monsters that aggro.

At this point I fear a hate meter will become just another toggelable displayed icon. So that if you are a tank it will then become even easier watch Television shows while playing this game, only glancing back at your screen every few seconds to check that your Hate % is high or is the highest, and then with fingers placed on your "voke" button, go back to watching your TV show of choice. Just another enhancement to this game that will make it easier to play on autopilot.

I would like a post from SE as to why they feel they need to implement a hate meter. It def needs to be explained to us why it makes sense to do so, because I think a lot of the debate we are having is divided between people that like the idea of knowing where they stand so that they can perform more efficiently, on the other side is the people that like the idea of not knowing because of the excitement from having to keep on your toes. To me personally Id rather not know. I feel like all the little subtle / yet intricate mysteries of this game that do add excitement like "Does this monsters aggro?", or "do I have enough or too much hate on Uraeus?" Seem to be slowly disappearing.

Booom... We need it and point. it's a casual/hardcore game.

as long as enimity works properly, I dont see a need for a hate meter I really hope they dont add this its like FF for dummies wasnt need in XI and u knew how to control hate, if u didnt thats was your ass and thats the way it should be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

I also don't believe that implementing this will encourage people to try things they might not have done before. If you're not already trying to play your job to the fullest without this system then you're just gimping yourself. And to think that a tool like this is needed to make people play their jobs as efficiently as possible is just sad. Is it me or is today's gamer generation really that unconfident in their decision making abilities that they need tools to tell them what to do?

---

Well maybe it's because hate is kind of screwy right now but I hold back on it as it is now. I don't know where my hate is and I've pulled off a tank by just attacking with Out of Sight on. I've also gone through entire fights without the enemy so much as looking at me with Intimidation on. Anything that might pull additional unnecessary hate is something I stay away from and that includes most buffs. The system seems to just go all over the place sometimes, it often makes no sense. When the enmity algorithms are fixed maybe it will be a different story.

I'm not sure where the "generation of gamer" comment comes in. I've been playing for 15+ years now, first system was a Genesis. I've been quite vocal on wanting challenge however showing simple data doesn't really make things easier for me. If a fight is challenging then it will be so whether or not I know the state of my enmity. You know Monster Hunter doesn't display health bars on any of it's monsters, maybe we should do that because it makes the fight more fun not knowing how far along you are in a timed fight. You really have to get a feel for how long it takes you to kill a monster, or just fail miserably without any indication. Don't get me wrong, love MH though.

I'm neither in favor or against the system, I can just see situations where it would be nice. Seems like they're adding it either way so I'm just looking on the bright side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Teknoman

Just for the sake of argument, what games current use something like this?

---

The only game that I've seen so far that uses this is TERA Online. I saw a video on YouTube where a developer was discussing that there is a red circle indicator around the player's feet to indicate who has hate. That indicator will slide over to the mages if they take the hate away.

Hearing everyone's views about this has me on the fence about it myself. At first glance, I thought it was a welcome addition but now that I hear both arguments, I'm not sure what to think about it anymore. Let's see what it's like first before deciding against it or for it. They can always tweak things in the patch after.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bittereye

The only game that I've seen so far that uses this is TERA Online. I saw a video on YouTube where a developer was discussing that there is a red circle indicator around the player's feet to indicate who has hate. That indicator will slide over to the mages if they take the hate away.

Hearing everyone's views about this has me on the fence about it myself. At first glance, I thought it was a welcome addition but now that I hear both arguments, I'm not sure what to think about it anymore. Let's see what it's like first before deciding against it or for it. They can always tweak things in the patch after.

---

Hate identifier is not a hate meter.

So far WoW/Clones have it as a plug in system. The most used and necessary one actually since no raid goes without it if they're smart.

When I read that part of the post I didn't read "hate meter". I'm sure what they are looking at is some kind of identifier icon showing your approximate level of hate. Maybe something like a green/yellow/red system where it doesn't tell you your threshold but rather tells you approximately where you stand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ava

When I read that part of the post I didn't read "hate meter". I'm sure what they are looking at is some kind of identifier icon showing your approximate level of hate. Maybe something like a green/yellow/red system where it doesn't tell you your threshold but rather tells you approximately where you stand.

---

Quote:

---

Furthermore, a player’s enmity will be made constantly visible as a percentage of that of the party member being attacked.

---

Quoted from battle reform post. It's clearly going to be a meter that displays your current enmity percentage compared to the person with hate. It will either be a bar or just straight up numbers.

Edt: Put the important part in bold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeowyWowie

Quoted from battle reform post. It's clearly going to be a meter that displays your current enmity percentage compared to the person with hate. It will either be a bar or just straight up numbers.

Edt: Put the important part in bold.

---

I guess I missed that, put my name on the list of people who think it's lame. :p

I'd hate to see a hate meter as well, having been a tank myself.

It also takes away what strategy there is for tanking, and makes it easier and even less important. If i want to play a role that's unimportant and easy, I'd just be playing DPS.