Premades Don’t Break Frontline — They Broke the Illusion of the Horde Stampede

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Very fair point.

I guess the issue then is what worked for Secure 2.0 would not work on the other maps?

I have to say in any given match these days, I get far more irritated by people hiding behind rocks than I do by a light party leading the charge.

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You're right, they wouldn't work for other modes. The purpose of only awarding points for capture zones was it forced the correct strategy to be splitting your parties. That's why 8-man premades worked. We typically knew when Adders or Maelstrom premades were running and went to meet them. We communicated that with pug players so they weren't stuck dealing with it. Every mode and update since then has just taken away from that culture until finally there was just no turning back from deathblob strategies and all the pain points we talk about today.

I know we've clashed in the past, but I'm passionate, and this is why.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The title of this thread is pure fiction. The premades on NA with the highest win-rates employ a well-known guide, a central feature of which is a marker that everyone is instructed to follow. In that sense, premades are the source of the horde stampede.

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I have to disagree with your approach of linking premades directly to the creation of the "Horde Stampede" phenomenon.
At the time, NA players (EU doesn't exist yet) were still using the same general approach as Japanese groups.
8-man premades already existed back then, but the Horde Stampede playstyle hadn't yet taken root in NA.

In my view, that particular style only began to take shape after the PvP community was locked into Onsal Hakair for three straight months.
That environment encouraged and reinforced the behavior we now recognize as Horde Stampede.
That said, I do give you credit for how you've presented your argument.
At this point, the relationship between premades and the Horde Stampede playstyle has become a chicken-and-egg dilemma — and it’s difficult to fully untangle one from the other.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

You're right, they wouldn't work for other modes. The purpose of only awarding points for capture zones was it forced the correct strategy to be splitting your parties. That's why 8-man premades worked. We typically knew when Adders or Maelstrom premades were running and went to meet them. We communicated that with pug players so they weren't stuck dealing with it. Every mode and update since then has just taken away from that culture until finally there was just no turning back from deathblob strategies and all the pain points we talk about today.

I know we've clashed in the past, but I'm passionate, and this is why.

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Oh, honey, I've clashed with nearly everyone and I don't take it personal. Like you, it stems from passion. And thanks for the explanation. I never tried that mode.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

I have to disagree with your approach of linking premades directly to the creation of the "Horde Stampede" phenomenon.
At the time, NA players (EU doesn't exist yet) were still using the same general approach as Japanese groups.
8-man premades already existed back then, but the Horde Stampede playstyle hadn't yet taken root in NA.

In my view, that particular style only began to take shape after the PvP community was locked into Onsal Hakair for three straight months.
That environment encouraged and reinforced the behavior we now recognize as Horde Stampede.
That said, I do give you credit for how you've presented your argument.
At this point, the relationship between premades and the Horde Stampede playstyle has become a chicken-and-egg dilemma — and it’s difficult to fully untangle one from the other.

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As mentioned in my discussion with Atreus, I missed the early history of this evolution and that doubtless colors my view.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Very fair point.

I guess the issue then is what worked for Secure 2.0 would not work on the other maps?

I have to say in any given match these days, I get far more irritated by people hiding behind rocks than I do by a light party leading the charge.

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The so-called "good old days" of Frontline primarily existed in Secure 24 men, before Square Enix added Daily Frontline into the roulette system.
Secure was once a battleground dominated by experienced, dedicated PvPers.
Casual and newer players tended to queue into Shatter, which was more accessible through the daily roulette.

Because of this split, you wouldn’t often see organized premades in Shatter, not because they didn’t exist, but because most of the skilled players and premade groups preferred Secure’s 24-man mode, where coordination and strategy mattered more.
That’s why I disagree with your claim that premades created the Horde Stampede playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

The so-called "good old days" of Frontline primarily existed in Secure 24 men, before Square Enix added Daily Frontline into the roulette system.
Secure was once a battleground dominated by experienced, dedicated PvPers.
Casual and newer players tended to queue into Shatter, which was more accessible through the daily roulette.

Because of this split, you wouldn’t often see organized premades in Shatter, not because they didn’t exist, but because most of the skilled players and premade groups preferred Secure’s 24-man mode, where coordination and strategy mattered more.
That’s why I disagree with your claim that premades created the Horde Stampede playstyle.

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Okay. As I said I don't know the history. I would argue, however, that premades (on Aether at least) perpetuate the horde stampede.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Okay. As I said I don't know the history. I would argue, however, that premades (on Aether at least) perpetuate the horde stampede.

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My apology
I was already in the middle of writing a post and didn’t see your reply until after I had finished.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The title of this thread is pure fiction. The premades on NA with the highest win-rates employ a well-known guide, a central feature of which is a marker that everyone is instructed to follow. In that sense, premades are the source of the horde stampede.

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On that note, I think it's both and it's probably an ouroboros of some kind. Before EW/DT AoE stacking appeared, whether or not premades were there, we still had hordes like that. It's in human nature to gang up and follow, especially the ones that seem to know what they're doing. Apes strong together and all that jazz. And it's also effective because that's what shows the best results as long as the mode doesn't clearly requires splitting, which it doesn't. As others pointed out, the horde blobbing mentality appeared once enough changes were made to the mode past ARR/HW that made splitting less and less mandatory.

Maps required splitting a lot more for different reasons, for instance Secure because there was no teleporters and mount speed meant you committed to a side and that was it (often at the cost of finding actual action which is still a problem today but less so, due to the teleporters and mount speed). Seize was the least affected, but mount speed still made that it was possible to skirmish and steal nodes without immediately facing the wrath of the enemy blob because it took more time to come back. Shatter 1.0 very often had small rng ice everywhere that forced people to spread, and I do believe that it's still one of the best FL mechanics to date that splits alliances even though it's pve (and i hate pve in pvp) for the simple reason that it allows for a LOT of smaller skirmishes where deleting the other small teams makes a lot of sense. Being post mount speed change, Onsal has always been designed for mindless blobbing and hordes because everything is immediately accessible even though multiple objectives can pop at once, and alliance just have to move from one to another in quick succession.

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Originally Posted by Exmo

The thing is, it's not a case of 4 players defeating 24 players. Premades corral and pester the other 20 players on their team to obey the premade's designated strategy and follow the premade's chosen leader. With 20 allies backing them up, the 4 highly coordinated players can ensure they're always in the most advantageous position of their team, use their allies to pad their kills and assists, and leverage their allies as human shields before they sound the macro to retreat to guarantee they're always ahead of the crowd and with low risk of dying. These aren't "highly skilled" players in premades. Once you strip away the advantages of being in a discord call with 4 friends and having 20 bodyguards on the field, they're shown to be just above average.

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Can confirm that a lot of premade players are actually mediocre at actual pvp mechanics, but on the other hand, I think it's pretty unfair to judge them with CC's standards, as this is FL after all. They're usually pretty competent to a fault at playing large scale pvp movements, which is also what the mode is about.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Easy. It wasn't "scrapped". Changes were made meant to accommodate all further modes they added that negatively impacted Secure, such as the following:
*Adding battle high
*Awarding points for kills instead of holding capture zones and breaking nodes
*Increasing mount speed
*Adding the middle ramp to each base
*Adding forced freelance to everyone
*Reducing premade maximums

Because SE wanted to innovate, try new things, and make changes under the notion of "increasing accessibility" and all they've done is lure more people who don't wanna be there in the first place.

Let's not sit here and dote on SE like their decision-making is always for the better.

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I agree with most points, but on the freelance and premade points, that's something as someone that has personally faced 8 man premades and Maelstrom with good players vs everyone else, it was absolutely awful, and made the mode so bad that people complaining about premades today feel like small fry in comparison. Like, if people think premades are bad today, they obviously haven't seen what they used to be in their glory days, even without all the tools they have today to stack AoE. They just didn't need them when they could stack all the odds in their favor and rig the game from the start. I still have nightmares about 8 NIN premades from Stormblood for example. Only in HW/SB I have actually witnessed FL games where two teams would just stay in their spawn and refuse to even play the game when faced with a full BH5 premade like that. And before freelancing it was even more hilarious since you could also stack premades in the same team a lot more easily than today.

I'd agree that the old premade and predetermined GC queue system worked probably damn well for games dedicated to FL aficionados though, but it works very poorly for a more universal, accessible queue system for everybody including casuals.

Agreed. Premades don't really influence much aside from burst countdown and proper map rotations. Anyone that uses the excuse of premades ruin x are either:

1) bad
2) refusing to self-improve
3) delusional
4) all of the above

Premades do not gain access to any extra skills, we all use the same abilities. Full swing being one of the tools that easily dismantles any form of DRK/GNB composition but no one in NA pays attention to the DRK running towards them and doesn't press guard. This is skill issue. If premades were truly a problem you would feel it in other region like China and Japan who are way more hardcore into FL.

From my experience, Japanese players don't really use Discord/voice chat at all. Solo teams are fully capable of beating premades in that region and as I've pointed out we all access to the same abilities in the game. NA simply is not good at playing the game. This they need to accept. They don't put in the effort so they don't get good, it's pretty simple.

Before anyone says or mentions anything related to casuals, have you seen the casuals in China and Japan? They're about as good as any veterans in NA. Stop trying to find excuses for your own shortcomings. It's not premades, it's not because it's meant to be a casual game mode that you have to play lethargically, you guys just suck. Plain truth.

You don't want to take orders and play in an organized manner? Fine. That's your choice and you're allowed to have that option. But to then start complaining about premades/people shouldn't be able to play together because you suck and can't play properly/counter their stack with literally either Full Swing or Meteodrive is on you.

And before anyone says "OH BUT THAT MEANS I HAVE TO PLAY TANK/MONK TO COUNTER THEM??", no you dunce. Open your eyes, look at the DRK running towards you, KILL THEM. They do not have the same damage reduction as the other tanks. They're literally almost as squishy as a red mage/dancer/sage. See chart: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...e/frontline/4/

But yeah, let's blame premades because of lack of game comprehension (let's not forget how 90% of the playerbase never presses guard, heal, purify, nor check their map). Every game I mark the enemy dark knight with a big ol' bind 1/2/3 and I put in alliance chat "focus the bind marked target or you will all die" and no one listens and they all die to no one's surprise.

Skill issue.

P.S.
This is coming from a solo player in Primal that easily pisses off premades with just 1 button. Very often do they then start jumping or using potions on my dead body because I refuse to let them wombo combo my team.

it's not just NA players. I've seen some absolute dog games on JP and OCE. the general player base just seemingly have no idea.

Maybe it's equivalent to asking someone to go into an EX+ and expect them to know the mechanics and their rotations. But outside of those who actually enjoy and put in time in pvp, the rest of those that queue up have no clue. They dont know how to read the map, they dont know when to shield/pot, they have no idea where and when they should use their LBs, they have no idea around choke points, not to overstay at one point or not grouping up at the mid ramp on Onsal. and, no matter where, so many damn people cannot read the bloody score in a pvp game and continually chase third place.

But yes, premades are the problem.