I know y'all don't wanna hear this...

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Was the tank using their mitigation, was yours and the their gear level appropriate, were the DPS pressing buttons

Not saying you are wrong but in the incredibly rare situation someone will actively flame you in 14 there are many avenues to check before deciding that everything must be bad/your fault and giving up healing entirely

But I can totally understood being put off healers if that is your like 3rd experience, but I would check such things in the future

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I don't honestly know about the mits. Never played a tank really and don't know what all the spells look like. My gear was on level a mix of HQ and NQ crafted. Sadly I was so focusing on trying to keep him alive I really wasnt Paying attention to what the DPS were doing.

I have strongly suspected it was too many bees in the pull but that is having run it as DPS many times since then and watching where struggles happen.

Wipe on that pull. Followed by one nasty dressing down and ugly grumbling for the rest of the run. Problem is my confidence in my ability to keep up is just gone.


Edit: @ChrysOCE yes it was the 35 normal. Good to know I wasn't the only one to struggle. TY for the kind words of wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

My experience was in Qarn and the tank pulled something like 3 packs and I just couldn't keep him alive. Got chewed out. Finished the dungeon and never healed again. I was on a on lvl conjurer/white mage

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I assume you mean the 35 normal? Yea, below 50, I don't like WHM. I can do it, but I don't like it. Sometimes you have to just brush it off though, it happens. I had a Stone Vigil, as WHM, and I couldn't keep up. It was just on of those runs and it was only at the 1st room, before the 1st boss. 3 wipes. I just could not keep pace. After the 1st boss, 3 more wipes. I just, apologized and left before they could respond and swore I would never do healing again. But I did the next day. Learn from it, read/watch guides on healing. Recognize where you stuffed up. But also recognize times where it isn't your fault.

I would be curious if the tank used Arm's Length, to give you some time to get them healed back up. Or the other two. Tanks gotta help the healer, in that instance.
Below 50, I would not expect w2w. I'd be happy with it, but I wouldn't expect it.

The funny thing about CNJ/WHM is that being the "braindead" healer also - ironically - makes it the hardest healer to play with at lower levels because while AST, SCH, and SGE at least have an ogcd or two to smooth things out, WHM can literally only Cure spam, and sometimes trash pulls eat a tank's HP as fast, if not faster, as you can gcd heal them. If you're a leveling WHM, you will run out of MP keeping your tank alive.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

This has recently become me, and I'm quite proud of this fact, but my "other MMO" upbringing has me ALWAYS sensitive to a healer struggling, and I always adapt. It's happened twice tonight and there was a glaring situation of... well everything I put in the OP. Someone actually said "I'm sorry, I just don't know when to heal a warrior..."

THAT IS 100% THE COMMUNITY'S FAULT FOR THAT "WHEN TO HEAL" FACTOR BEING A THING!

You heal when someone is hurt, if that's what you need to do!

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No thanks, this is just totally wrong.

Next

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Originally Posted by Omedon

As long as you ask these two counterintuitive things, tanks will die, healers will feel put on the spot, and both will queue less and err on the side of DPSing, trading peace and absence of higher responsibility for a longer queue.

I know you're gonna get mad, but it's true.

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Wrong again. 99% of dungeons don't have any issues with W2W pulls.

Next

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Originally Posted by Omedon

This has recently become me, and I'm quite proud of this fact, but my "other MMO" upbringing has me ALWAYS sensitive to a healer struggling, and I always adapt. It's happened twice tonight and there was a glaring situation of... well everything I put in the OP. Someone actually said "I'm sorry, I just don't know when to heal a warrior..."

THAT IS 100% THE COMMUNITY'S FAULT FOR THAT "WHEN TO HEAL" FACTOR BEING A THING!

You heal when someone is hurt, if that's what you need to do! The potentially augmented speed of the run comes more from the tank safely pulling bigger while the healer spends more time keeping him up, not from the healer feeling obligated to DPS while said tank is pulling big, spacing out mitigation to last, and giving DPS (and MAYBE the healer) their big pile of death jollies! That poor healer! When we died on the first double-pull I apologized and said "I will pull slower, it's ok," and they of course had to retort with "you don't have to." But courtesy is what it is and I of course slowed down.

Sorry, I'm ranting and I meant to just respond to what you'd said.

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Good tanks (and healers) always adapt. They don't have to like it, but sometimes it is necessary.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

I don't honestly know about the mits. Never played a tank really and don't know what all the spells look like. My gear was on level a mix of HQ and NQ crafted. Sadly I was so focusing on trying to keep him alive I really wasnt Paying attention to what the DPS were doing.

I have strongly suspected it was too many bees in the pull but that is having run it as DPS many times since then and watching where struggles happen.

Wipe on that pull. Followed by one nasty dressing down and ugly grumbling for the rest of the run. Problem is my confidence in my ability to keep up is just gone.


Edit: @ChrysOCE yes it was the 35 normal. Good to know I wasn't the only one to struggle. TY for the kind words of wisdom.

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Has nothing to do with healing actually ?

It sounds like no one is stunning Final Sting (yes you don't actually need to take the hit), and the DPS is too slow and not focusing down bees with low health (just autoing them is enough).

Final Sting does like 60% of the tank's HP. If too many go off at once the tank will just die. So sounds like a tank DPS issue.

At the same time this is a video game, why do you care about being chewed out ? Just hide chat and ignore them ?

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Originally Posted by Omedon

said "I will pull slower, it's ok," and they of course had to retort with "you don't have to." But courtesy is what it is and I of course slowed down.

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Actually this is very much an insult to the healer, congratulations ? Are you happy ? They told you to pull more because they just made an accidental mistake and now you're pulling slower as a passive aggressive insult to them. Basically what you're saying is "I know better than you you're not actually a good healer so I'm going to pull slower despite you disagreeing"

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Originally Posted by Myrany

I don't honestly know about the mits. Never played a tank really and don't know what all the spells look like. My gear was on level a mix of HQ and NQ crafted. Sadly I was so focusing on trying to keep him alive I really wasnt Paying attention to what the DPS were doing.

I have strongly suspected it was too many bees in the pull but that is having run it as DPS many times since then and watching where struggles happen.

Wipe on that pull. Followed by one nasty dressing down and ugly grumbling for the rest of the run. Problem is my confidence in my ability to keep up is just gone.


Edit: @ChrysOCE yes it was the 35 normal. Good to know I wasn't the only one to struggle. TY for the kind words of wisdom.

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I'd encourage you to try healing again, if it was something that you were initially interested in. If you have squadrons unlocked, use that or duty support. It's a good way to just get an initial feel for healing. If you wipe, it doesn't matter, its just npcs. You can stop between pulls and refer to guides or even just to gather yourself. You can control the pulls by going a little ahead and hitting an enemy and running back to your party. Build your confidence a little, then try with other people. If you are in a FC, see if you can get a pre-made party together and do some runs.

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Originally Posted by Omedon

the combination of "by default, tanks should pull wall to wall" and "by default, healers should spend as much time DPSing as possible" is an absolutely toxic cocktail of unapproachability

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Yeah, those two memes certainly do not naturally mix well. Personally, I don't like the notion that wall to wall pulls are expected, or that every DF group is assumed to be a speed run by default. That sort of comes with the assumption that every player is a seasoned expert at their jobs and knows the content inside out, which is quite evidently not the case. And we hear about it all the time in "Tales from Duty Finder" and all over the place online. Constant tales of people fighting over who pulls and how many pulls and whether the healer is doing enough and why isn't the DPS doing the exact right prescripted rotation.

They say it's all about "respect for everyone's time," but they spend much more time arguing and insulting their own party members, kicking people from groups or leaving groups, whining on the forums or posting on Reddit the exact number of times some other player used a a particular skill. And while the "You Pull You Tank" philosophy is absolutely toxic and the wrong attitude to have, it exists at least partially as a reaction to the social hypertension we've created through the psychological war to define the unwritten "Duty Finder rules."

We're even telling people now, "if you want to watch cutscenes, use Duty Support." Or, "if you can't handle wall-to-wall pulls, use Duty Support." And then we get to level 90 and have all these players out there who have never done anything but Duty Support and still don't know how to play with a real group.

All this drama, people quitting entire roles due to the stress, people quitting the game, just to save a measly minute or two on a random dungeon roulette with strangers. Is it really worth it?

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Originally Posted by Omedon

Overly DPSing healers are a bonus.

Wall to wall pulling is a bonus.

They're perks, not entitlements.

Just be kind. You're all so good at that when people conform to your expectations, maybe alter those just a bit to err on the side of kindness.

Thank you.

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Honestly, good post, and yeah, this is the important part.

I think, as a community, people have gotten used to some things to the point they force it on others and, if someone doesn't do it, very much make their displeasure known, either through actions (pulling), behavior (impatience), or EXTREMELY long threads on the forums complaining about it.

Instead of just realizing that, if you que for things, you're on other people's time; it's not just them on yours. If you don't have 20 mins, don't que. If you que and get a quick run, awesome. If not, well, go in with that expectation and you're already prepared for the "worst case" scenario. : )

Be the change you want to see.

Wall to Wall pulling has nothing to do with optimization or being faster. It's just one of the very few things that a healer can actually push one of those shiny healing skill buttons for. :P