RDM underperforming by the way of neglect

I've been maining RDM since the start of EW after it being my alt job of choice in ShB. Current RDM is the most fun I've had playing the job from a pure gameplay standpoint since I picked it up. The 50 mana cost of the melee combo and the acceleration changes gave us way more tools for movement beyond Enchanted Reprise spam and it made the job feel way more dynamic to me.

The main issue I have right now does come down to its damage output. Most teams that started the world race with a RDM ended up dropping it in favor of SMN because of how horrible it's damage output is. I understand how powerful Verraise is in a prog setting, but having so little damage output that it can become a liability does not feel good.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Wow I just checked and yeah, RDM is actually at the bottom on almost every single fight this patch. I understand they have amazing utility but I think it should be like this:

BLM > SAM > MCH > RPR > MNK > SMN > DRG > NIN > RDM > BRD > DNC > DRK > GNB > WAR > PLD > SGE > WHM > SCH > AST

This is in terms of how much utility each job brings. I'd rather for tanks it be WAR > GNB > DRK > PLD and DRK have way more utility/healing while WAR having far less, but that's just me.

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If this is in terms of utility then RDM should swap with DNC. DNC brings a damage buff, party wide DR and pseudo party heal. while RDM brings a damage buff, party wide DR, party wide healing buff, essentially unlimited instant rez, instant spot heal and a damage debuff

QUOTE=Mithron

Mnk should be above mch, rpr below drg, rdm and above rpr and smn below ast unless they fix it. I think mch has been taxed three times for no real reason- phys ranged, no buffs and a not particularly complex rotation. Making wildfire scale from all gcds would be a step in a direction they could take. Red mage has the worst prolonged movement options of all casters so should have higher damage to compensate. Rpr is simpler than drg and has comparable utility. Smn has a rotation simpler than all healers and as such deserves to be dead last until such a time as they revert it or expand the rotation beyond a single instant button.

For the purposes of discussing damage rankings in rDPS, talking about damage buffs (which DNC brings far more of than RDM, by the way) is a bit of a non-starter since those are factored into a job's rDPS ranking in the first place.

Curing Waltz is an off-global cooldown heal that can hit 600 potency on one group or 300 potency on two groups during a spread mechanic. What's more, it's available once per minute. Is it amazing? No, but Vercure is a single target 350 potency heal that's on the global cooldown. That means that, yes you can spam it, but to use it means you're not doing damage--if healers avoid using GCD heals at all costs as part of their gameplay, with far more potent GCD heals and AoE GCD heals, why would a RDM's vercure be particularly valued? Especially compared to Curing Waltz. If you can dismiss CW's situational usefulness, you can dismiss Vercure's in the same breath is the point here.

Shield Samba is best compared to Addle since they're both the role action even if SS is for some reason allowed to remain its own thing while every other role has their action identity stripped away, but I digress. Every 90 seconds, DNC can reduce all incoming damage for 15 seconds, while Red Mage can reduce magic damage by 10% and physical damage by 5% for 10 seconds. This makes SS better by default but for a few foibles; SS cannot be used during a dance and although Addle cannot be used during a cast Red Mage can get to a phase where it can addle far more quickly than a DNC can get to using SS. In a scenario where cooldowns are planned, thus maximized however, this is a non-factor because the window to use these abilities will be found or made.

Though not directly comparable, DNC's 2 minute mitigation is Improv which Magick Barrier does beat out handily. Improv is much harder to find openings for, although if you wanted to be cheeky and just flash Improv as an oGCD you'd drop a 5% HP barrier on the party which can be helpful. Kind of like how AST sometimes used to (still does?) flash Collective Unconscious. I don't know if Improv's regen lasts after the flash, however, but if it can, hey 100 pot regen for 5 ticks so why not. If not, eh. EDIT: My DNC just got back to me; the regen lasts, but the barrier requires the press of Improvised Finish which makes trying to weave it janky to do. MB provides a Magic Damage reduction of 10% (important to remember, it does nothing for physical damage) and a 5% healing action strength increase.

So all that said, what you really want to say is "RDM should do less DPS than DNC because it can spam raise." Which...it can, with caveats. To dualcast a raise costs 5 seconds; 2.5 for the prepcast, and although instant, verraise does still roll the GCD. 5 seconds with one of those actions being an attack with a 1.8s cast time is definitely an advantage, but it isn't exactly "grab the whole party up instantly." To swiftcast a raise costs 2.5 seconds, by contrast, so Red Mage's big strength is being able to get two raises out in 7.5 seconds compared to anyone else getting one raise out in 7.5 seconds without swift. That is, however, once per minute just like everyone else's swiftcast. That's not to mention that roughly every 40-60 seconds, Red Mage is locked in a melee combo that they lose a ridiculous amount of damage to drop for a raise--that doesn't matter in prog though does it? Unless you're going for a kill against a very tight enrage, in which case the Red Mage not only would not raise--they should not.

This tier, I have been out-sped to the raise by my healers practically every single time unless I saw the death coming and pre-empted it with, not a dualcast raise, but a swiftcast raise. The times they would have needed me to raise most, ie during burst windows, I was paradoxically not able to stop to raise due to the immense loss of damage that would have caused.

The point of my anecdote is: boy is raise a hard utility to quantify. Depending who you ask, it's worthless even in prog or it's God's Gift to FFXIV. As it is, another poster already pointed out that RDM has been straight dropped in later fights of this tier because it just cannot keep up; SMN offers the same basic safety net, but on top of that is insanely mobile and does more damage than some physical ranged. This is why my stance is "restrict verraise to a 1 minute cooldown or remove raise from casters entirely" and I am admittedly a bit of a hardliner on "If you want the fantasy of resurrecting, healing, and carrying your party, go play a healer not a DPS" which plenty of the flavor people disagree with me heavily on.

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Originally Posted by Lustre

Underperforming by what margin? Because it seems to me that quite a lot of bad job design choices are made just to sate the egos of Parsers. Like tanks being homogenized beyond belief, TA/Mug, Ast Card rng, Kaiten removal, leans into auto-crits etc. I guess what I'm saying is be careful what you wish for. I'm well aware red mage isnt the hardest hitting caster but it's very fun to play, has a nice flow, does a bit of everything. One of the few jobs in xiv that matches its original job identity (jack of all trades), and doesnt have a single piece of jank in its kit. Plus one of the few jobs that actually has carry potential due to machine gun rezzes. I find it odd that you describe it as a turret job when you spend even more time moving around in EW than you did in SHB. Acceleration procs, dual cast, swiftcast are more than enough. Hold a charge when you know you have to move for mechanics and that problem is sorted. If anything I'd say summoner is the caster that needs the most help rn. Boring asf, no room to optimise, plays like a lv50 job etc.

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Yeah, it's a shame jobs get more and more homogeneous so people can keep their shiny numbers up while jobs get more and more boring. Not looking forward to AST, honestly.

People still believe BLM is an immobile caster just because they have to stand still for 30sec while no mechs happen when they have two triplecasts, extended ice phase with only instant spells, free rescue to anyone on a 10s CD and even perma paradox rotation to rely on lmao

For the longest time I was completely against removing verraise, but now I'm leaning towards it, or at putting it on a long cd, in exchange for more dps. Even in prog, it's rare that I chain raise and when I do, it's usually just a prelude to a wipe, since so many damage downs mean we aren't clearing anyway. It's biggest use is probably in casual content like alliance raids, where I can easily end up raising dozens of times. But in ex or savage, maybe once or twice a fight - otherwise, we're not clearing anyway.

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Originally Posted by darcstar62

For the longest time I was completely against removing verraise, but now I'm leaning towards it, or at putting it on a long cd, in exchange for more dps. Even in prog, it's rare that I chain raise and when I do, it's usually just a prelude to a wipe, since so many damage downs mean we aren't clearing anyway. It's biggest use is probably in casual content like alliance raids, where I can easily end up raising dozens of times. But in ex or savage, maybe once or twice a fight - otherwise, we're not clearing anyway.

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Caster raise should just be a role action or deleted, a caster being a better raiser than the healers is always going to be a mess especially considering people believe there needs to be a heavy tax for it (if verraise has to stay I’m all for a system where you get a DPS buff for not using it)

if RDM is not allowed to be higher DPS because of verraise then yes please delete it RDM shouldn’t be worse than the physical ranged

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Originally Posted by fulminating

QUOTE=Mithron

Mnk should be above mch, rpr below drg, rdm and above rpr and smn below ast unless they fix it. I think mch has been taxed three times for no real reason- phys ranged, no buffs and a not particularly complex rotation. Making wildfire scale from all gcds would be a step in a direction they could take. Red mage has the worst prolonged movement options of all casters so should have higher damage to compensate. Rpr is simpler than drg and has comparable utility. Smn has a rotation simpler than all healers and as such deserves to be dead last until such a time as they revert it or expand the rotation beyond a single instant button.

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the balances of the jobs are not made according to their difficulties, but especially according to their advantages, I am sorry but the dancer is not more complex than a summoner for example, yes the summoner is easy, but he is currently where it should be according to the devs.

and personally I think that the caster balance should be globally revised upwards for the red mage and the summoner but very slightly.

If you look at the stats of the red mage and the summoner themselves, they are currently excessively close in RDPS, it's around 100-200 DPS difference sometimes to the advantage of the SMN, but sometimes to the advantage of RDM depending on the fights, it's just that for world prog 100 or 200 more dps in certain situations it's necessarily interesting, it's just that the summoner and the red mage have a lower RDPS than the bard and to the dancer who is the most disturbing.

Afterwards it's relatively light, and I don't think they will make adjustments to caster before 7.0, for them the current balance is pretty good, otherwise they would certainly have made adjustments to the casters which they haven't not done in 6.2.