Beyblade bosses need to stop

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Originally Posted by wereotter

If I miss a positional in a dungeon because the tank is holding the enemy with just it's face poking out of a fire circle, and it's rear and flank are in the bad, that's the tank's fault.

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Tell that to the multitude of DPS that will chew a tank out for daring to move the boss an inch. I wouldn't dare attempt to count the times I or other tanks have had to deal with someone baby raging because we thought they might like to be able to access a given boss's rear and flank without being set on fire. This is why so many tanks elect to move enemies the bare minimum distance.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Tell that to the multitude of DPS that will chew a tank out for daring to move the boss an inch. I wouldn't dare attempt to count the times I or other tanks have had to deal with someone baby raging because we thought they might like to be able to access a given boss's rear and flank without being set on fire. This is why so many tanks elect to move enemies the bare minimum distance.

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Then I, as the healer, will tell them that dead DPS do no DPS, and they can stay dead for forcing the party to lose DPS by making me hardcast heals. If the tank can't move to dodge damage and reposition cause DPS complains "but muh DPS uptime", then the DPS tax goes to the healer in the end anyway. Overall, the party's outgoing damage remains unchanged.

Tank turned the boss around is one thing but if the Tank didn't move and you still complain then MNK isn't a job for you.
The old veteran MNKs ain't only just know when to move but they also can predict the moment before the boss is gonna turn around.
There are tons of indicators for MNKs to use , For example:
Knowing the abilities that the boss used, so you know that its gonna turn or not.
Aligned yourself with Main Tank so when the Tank move ccw you move ccw as well.
You need to know where Off Tank is as well, especially, just before when tanks swapped happen, so you don't miss the positional.

Raid awareness is very important for MNK, the old MNK need to do the rotations, positonal and the fight's mechanics at the same time while keeping GL up the whole fight.But now with GL gone, MNKs have a lot of awareness to spare than before.
So if you still complain after I said this much then I have nothing else to say except "Nice excuses you've got there".

I mean yeah, it's a team game, we are supposed to work as a team.
It makes sense that (especially in harder content) a lack of synch would result in a loss of damage overall.

But hot damn don't make tanks just static poles stuck in the ground just pressing mitigation buttons from time to time

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Tell that to the multitude of DPS that will chew a tank out for daring to move the boss an inch. I wouldn't dare attempt to count the times I or other tanks have had to deal with someone baby raging because we thought they might like to be able to access a given boss's rear and flank without being set on fire. This is why so many tanks elect to move enemies the bare minimum distance.

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I've never once chewed out a tank for pulling an enemy out of a ground AOE, I don't want to stand in it any more than my healer wants to stand in it. If the tank has to move the boss anyway, they should move it in such a way that DPS can still do their job. If they're doing it properly, and some DPS gets angry that they moved the boss too far, tell that bard to move in and adjust. (I'm assuming it must be some ranged job, since melee would never complain if a tank pulls a boss out of an AOE entirely)

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Calling it now: Positionals have been removed in Endwalker because they're causing melee players too much stress.

Be careful what you wish for.

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This is something I would literally jump for joy over. Outdated mechanic that adds arbitrary work to classes. Not needed and definitely can go. Engagement can be found in multiple other ways, especially because in general, the class design in this game is good already, if anything positionals make them all worse, especially monk.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

copy paste from my last response:

"We, ranged, asked for removal of casts.
Look at us now."

I'll explain for you:
Casts felt like a bad design, it was removed and surprise a job felt completely empty after that.
Positionnals will make jobs playing like others. Imagine MNK with no positionnals?

If you can't make your positionnals because a boss turns around, it's your tank fault, sure.
If you're frustrated in dungeon because of missing a positionnal, it's not your tank fault it's yours.

Either you chill out and stop thinking about optimizing something as trivial as a dungeon or you can keep getting mad.

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The thing is, as someone else mentioned in this thread, most of us don't notice them not being there when they are not required. Like some boss fights or Bozja type conent. This is more so true to the majority of the player base than the minority. They really aren't as important as some players think, if anything they are a burden on the player, and it's not fun if some tank is constantly moving the boss around. It is never ok to say "Its ok, just take the dps loss, because in savage tanks keep them in one position". That just sounds like an excuse for outdated and (tbh) bad design.

Do not be under any dellusion that hitting positionals make you skillful, they do not. Many players that don't like them, can hit all their positionals just fine. It is the annoyance of having to do it all the time, or feel frustrated when you miss them because of someone else why many want them gone, and won't miss them either.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

The thing is, as someone else mentioned in this thread, most of us don't notice them not being there when they are not required. Like some boss fights or Bozja type conent. This is more so true to the majority of the player base than the minority. They really aren't as important as some players think, if anything they are a burden on the player, and it's not fun if some tank is constantly moving the boss around. It is never ok to say "Its ok, just take the dps loss, because in savage tanks keep them in one position". That just sounds like an excuse for outdated and (tbh) bad design.

Do not be under any dellusion that hitting positionals make you skillful, they do not. Many players that don't like them, can hit all their positionals just fine. It is the annoyance of having to do it all the time, or feel frustrated when you miss them because of someone else why many want them gone, and won't miss them either.

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I mean, if hitting the correct button at the correct time, not just rotationally but also by using fight knowledge, isn't skillful... then what IS skillful?

I think the issue people have with positionals would actually completely vanish if they were made MORE impactful. Like what this guy said, they don't matter much -- and that's the problem.

You know the fight. You know your team. You know your core gameplay. You know when you need to move to hit a positional. You're literally pressing buttons to do more DPS. There is no more pure of a form of gameplay than to know what to do, then do it, then be rewarded for doing it correctly. The problem is the reward feels too small and there's too many ways to nullify the need for it. These are more recent issues. Going back to ARR, skills would do only about 60% of their damage if you whiffed a positional; and some jobs could miss applying important buffs and debuffs as well. This made hitting the positional important. Moving to the side or rear of a mob was just as much of a DPS boost, if not potentially moreso, than pushing another button. There was no fancy graphic or sound effect though, and perhaps that's an issue that can be addressed. Make whiffing a positional have a wimpy sound effect, like a dull thud compared to the glorious smashing sound of landing one. Add some hitsparks or something if you do it right, and nothing if you do it wrong.

And as of the last expansion, really think about it -- how many bosses actually spin unpredictably on their own, and how often do they do it?

I would gladly support positionals being removed from the game if it meant that tanks were allowed to position bosses again. These railshooter fights are just not fun to tank.

I don't think the problem lies with the bosses, the tanks positioning the bosses or the positionals themselves.

I think the problem is that people don't want boss fights to be difficult and have to think about how the boss will change it's positioning based on what attacks it can use and manage their uses of positional removals (aka True North) accordingly.

But people will always complain, because it's far easier to give up and complain than to improve your own gameplay.