Make tenacity great

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

It's kind of weird that tanks need to bring the pain more then being a fortress of defense. I suppose nobody likes playing with gimp dps even if it is a tank.

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Imagine an impenetrable fortress tank with no attack power in PvP. You would probably just ignore them and kill off the healers first and then the glass cannon dps. Tanks soak damage for others, not for themselves. It doesn't make sense to expect a tank to get attacked in place of someone else unless they're a genuine threat.

This should not be a trade off. Tanks should get both offensively and defensively stronger with better gear.

For Tenacity to be good, it would require another stat to not be so good. If DET were to change to a DPS only stat, with Tenacity getting its benefits for tanks, you'd see a lot more Tenacity. This would also drive down the amount of variance though, between Crit, Tenacity, and Skill Speed. Though there will always be 2 stats to rule them all in this game, nothing short of a complete change in how all substats work would change that.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

For Tenacity to be good, it would require another stat to not be so good. If DET were to change to a DPS only stat, with Tenacity getting its benefits for tanks, you'd see a lot more Tenacity. This would also drive down the amount of variance though, between Crit, Tenacity, and Skill Speed. Though there will always be 2 stats to rule them all in this game, nothing short of a complete change in how all substats work would change that.

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Not completely. Multiplicative bonuses actually should mean that the more stats you have at similar totals the higher your net damage multiplier. 3 x1.05 multipliers (x1.157625 net) is actually better than a x1.10 and a x1.05 multiplier (x1.155 net). If 3 stats have roughly the same damage multiplier at the same stat totals an optimal build would want roughly equal amounts of each stat.

A problem occurs when you have one stat grow far faster than the others and 1 stat that grows significantly slower rather than all growing in parallel. If you have one stat that grows from a x1.089 multiplier at +2k to a x1.135 multiplier at +3k, one stat that grows from a x1.04 to a x1.08 between +1k and +2k and a third stat that grows from x1.035 to x1.07 between +1k to +2k. With +2k in all 3 stats you end up with a x1.258 net multiplier, a x1.258 at +3k/+1.5k/+1.5k and a x1.268 at +3k/+2k/+1k. This is why Tenacity is sacrificed for Crit.

If Crit had a multiplier that grows linearly (because only 1 of either Crit Rate or the Crit Multiplier increases) rather than an exponentially the damage substats would be more balanced.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

It's kind of weird that tanks need to bring the pain more then being a fortress of defense. I suppose nobody likes playing with gimp dps even if it is a tank. Big numbers go BRRRR.

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This is due to mitigation being a binary answer. If I can survive the outgoing damage or tankbuster, throwing more mitigation and extra healing has no impact. For reference sake, I have nearly 220,000 HP on BiS Warrior. Eden's Promise autos me for roughly 40k and her TB hits for 120k per hit or thereabouts. Said buster happens only three times in an eight minute fight. At what point would Tenacity's 5% additional mitigation matter when I have multiple uses of Vengeance, Thrill, Rampart, Nascent/Raw, Equilibrium and Holmgang to play around with? In fact, I don't need to be healed for the first TB at all. I can literally Thrill+Equilibrium and heal for over 100k because those CDs will do nothing otherwise. They're completely free.

All of this is why Tenacity is, effectively, worthless. When I have that many options at my disposal, taking 2,000 less damage every auto just doesn't matter.

The only thing they have to do to make tenacity be great again is make it so direct hit doesn't work for tanks. That is literally all they got to do. :p

I mean why use tenacity when you can just stick tons of direct hit and get a better result? There's always going to be stat priorities and it's never going to be a situation where Determination and Tenacity are even. One is going to be king of the hill over the other and you'd only ever go for the latter if the primary one is filled out. Right now it's something like STR > CRIT > DET > DH for warriors. If DH wasn't there than it would be STR > CRIT > DET > TENACITY which makes more sense to me.

The problem is its either ueseless or too important, there is no inbetween simply because of how the stat and jobs work. Honestly they are better off removing the stat completely and just building it in the jobs naturally.

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Originally Posted by Derio

The problem is its either ueseless or too important, there is no inbetween simply because of how the stat and jobs work. Honestly they are better off removing the stat completely and just building it in the jobs naturally.

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The issue with Tenacity is that the role it plays is already being played by the defense of the armor we are wearing as well as vitality and because of the enrage timers, the game prioritizes DPS statistics over any other. I mean they can have tenacity boost defenses for tanks while still boosting damage, just you'd need to fill out CRIT and DET first on warrior before considering it. If they boosted damage on it to beat DET, the only thing that happens is now CRIT and TENACITY take priority and DET is the filler.

the only way to make multiple substats "relevant" is by changing the function in which they give damage boosts to make it non-linear.

take skill speed for example, people like to say its useless but in reality its one of the most important stats, up to a certain point. If crit had diminishing returns after a certain threshold then we wouldn't just slot all crit all the time always

i personally dont think its a problem that tenacity is the worst stat, because if all substats are linear, there will ALWAYS be a worst stat. however if all substats were not linear, that would change how gearing works for all jobs in the game, and people would probably instead focus on hitting certain stat tiers. i dont think either is particularly more or less interesting than the other.

as for the defensive aspect of tenacity, tanks already require barely any healing as is. i dont know how much tankier a tank can get to make a difference when healers already never use gcd heals on tanks in the first place. very often im sitting on two stacks of essential dignity because autoattacks tickle even in savage. i think the only fight in the game where i worry about tanks hp is TEA

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Originally Posted by QooEr

i personally dont think its a problem that tenacity is the worst stat, because if all substats are linear, there will ALWAYS be a worst stat. however if all substats were not linear, that would change how gearing works for all jobs in the game, and people would probably instead focus on hitting certain stat tiers. i dont think either is particularly more or less interesting than the other.

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We are and arguably were in a position where beyond haste effects, substats don't really matter. Sure, one's "better" than the other for damage, and they jostle around breakpoints, but you could wipe out every stat and give us a speed/potency inverse ratio for adjustment and things probably wouldn't change from a gearing standpoint.

Just let us pick the GCD we want and adjust potencies automatically.

I don't see substats getting more complicated though. Discussions in that vein tend to dry up quickly and with little to show for it.

I use Ten/Det on my Tanks because I have developed extreme PTSD from the multiple times healers have let me down. I have been in situations where I am literally at death's door, pop my Invul and STILL don't get a single heal at all and end up dying as a result. I love tenacity because it makes my self heals stronger and mitigates more damage so I can survive longer on my own should I get grouped with bad healers in DF. IDGAF about optimizing my Tanks, it'll be meaningless if i die anyways so I'll be a low DPS tank if it means peace of mind.

I know I'm in the minority here but I am 100% fine with Tenacity as it.