Paladin feels miles ahead of the other tanks in terms of overall play in this game.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

Shake It Off does give 15% Warrior's Max HP. So already it's better then Veil and that number can be pushed significantly if just Thrill is used since that raises your max HP by 20% which then Thrill gets boosted by 17% of your new max hp. Hell Shake and Thrill share the same CD time pretty much for that reason since they're great in tandem.

Paladin does make life easier by generally having the normal heals proc Veil, but I wouldn't disregard or downplay WAR for that reason.

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You're wrong on several counts.

First: Warrior's Thrill does NOT get calculated in Shake's hp percentage value, that's because Shake goes off of the TARGET'S HP VALUE otherwise Shake would be pretty OP. Warrior's Shake, if you bothered to read the actual tooltip, shields the target based off of their OWN HP. That's why Shake was buffed, PLD's Veil gives MORE shielding for free, WAR needs to buff theirs to meet it in value.

Warrior can spend Thrill, Raw, and Vengeance for 2 percent more shield per CD consumed.

PLD's shield is based off of the PLD's hp, which is about 14k shielding right now, which is pretty good. Compare that to the 12 percent of like a BLM's 80k hp... not nearly as good, but, it's totally instant to cast so there's that.

Also to clear something up because these forums love to be in the dark about basic skills and tooltips and how things work on tanking, but love to give their "advice". Passage of Arms can be instantly weaved in between GCD's to give the 15 percent mitigation to all dmg, this persists on the server tick, so you get about 5 seconds worth of mitigation, more than enough if timed correctly to lose no dps, so no the "Raid" as someone pointed out, does NOT "lose a lot of dps".

Another thing: Intervention is OP as hell. It's a FREE 10 percent on your cotank at nearly all times when it's necessary. You can keep spamming it as long as you are not actively being auto'd as you will have your other CDs up for w/e you need them for. That, and if there is a double buster you can buff it by having Sentinel or Ramp up for even more OP mitigation. That's insane, no other tank can do nearly as much for their cotank as PLD can for free. TBN is great, but it costs resource and if the DRK already has their DA proc, they ain't using it again till raid buffs are up or they need to refresh DRKside/spend mana.

Cover kind of blows now, but hopefully they have dps/healer mechs where u can use that like in O7s with the missiles.

The real brokenness of Veil: You can pop it a FULL MINUTE before it is needed, yes, so long as your healers are going to put something up to proc it, you can pop it 30s before that, so it goes on CD, then, the shield lasts for a full 30s again, that's INSANE. No other tank can do that... at all. You can have so much uptime on veil it's outrageous. double the uses of it than the other tanks stuff.

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Originally Posted by winsock

It's not so much PLD, it's Clemency. A tank has a strong, semi-spammable heal in a game with low hps checks.

I main PLD, I like PLD, but have consistently taken the stance that clemency is too strong for a tanking class. What's wrong with balancing the game such that a dungeon party to wipes when the healer dies?

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Honestly, Clemency is ridiculously powerful for Solo play or carrying PUGs.

I don't see why DRK and WAR had their dungeon cheese mechanics(Abyssal Drain and Cyclone Heals for mnasive pulls) removed but Paladins get to keep Clemency.

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Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7

Honestly, Clemency is ridiculously powerful for Solo play or carrying PUGs.

I don't see why DRK and WAR had their dungeon cheese mechanics(Abyssal Drain and Cyclone Heals for mnasive pulls) removed but Paladins get to keep Clemency.

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probably because abyssal drain and cyclone both do dmg AND heal you at the same time, while clemency makes your DPS suffer a lot.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Using clemecy will put you on the bottom list of performance in exchange of something you dont need because healer are 100% capable of healing out from everything this game throws at you.

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I think their argument is that it shouldn't be the case that a tank has the ability to solo heal itself through most instanced content. They should have to rely on healer.

I think there may be some (older) dungeons with neglible healing needs that could be done more efficiently with 1 PLD and 3 dps.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Tanks are not balanced right now. Especially when most PF groups are asking for GNB/PLD combo. I still feel bad for WAR mains.

PLD is great for progression though. We wont see any real tank changes until 6.0 so right now any tank complaints are really just a waste of concern, especially considering that healer is the job that needs the most work.

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We're on the same data center and not once have I seen DRK or WAR locked out of new savage content or Ruby EX, I did ph1 and ph2 Ruby EX as a DRK and I plan on doing Eden Savage 5-8 on DRK like I did last raid tier. The tanks are the most balanced they've ever been it's mostly down to preference what you wanna play and some do have strengths over another but they're very minor vs the old days when WAR/DRK in HW was king and PLD was thrown in the scrap heap.

Clemency is a prog tool, like using TBN on CD for everything is a prog tool. To some degree, reprisal, addle, feint, etc... are the same things: To make prog smoother. You can also use these tools for optimizations such as stacking the big tank flare in Levi Savage, or the Smoker Tank flares up north, and so forth.

Value needs to be thought of in terms of both while proggin, and while farming.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Also to clear something up because these forums love to be in the dark about basic skills and tooltips and how things work on tanking, but love to give their "advice". Passage of Arms can be instantly weaved in between GCD's to give the 15 percent mitigation to all dmg, this persists on the server tick, so you get about 5 seconds worth of mitigation, more than enough if timed correctly to lose no dps, so no the "Raid" as someone pointed out, does NOT "lose a lot of dps".

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Can be instantly weaved, but GNB and DRK equivalent is still a lot better for party wide damage, you wont miss anyone with it and those have 90 sec cooldown instead of 120 sec.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Another thing: Intervention is OP as hell. It's a FREE 10 percent on your cotank at nearly all times when it's necessary. You can keep spamming it as long as you are not actively being auto'd as you will have your other CDs up for w/e you need them for. That, and if there is a double buster you can buff it by having Sentinel or Ramp up for even more OP mitigation. That's insane, no other tank can do nearly as much for their cotank as PLD can for free. TBN is great, but it costs resource and if the DRK already has their DA proc, they ain't using it again till raid buffs are up or they need to refresh DRKside/spend mana.

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Intervention comes in with dimishing returns spared with 20% damage reduction comes down to 8% effectively and 7% if the cotank used 30% mitigation.
Also warrior has 10% reduction on nascent flash AND heals on top of that, so ehm nope.
Gnb has 15% reduction you could use on party member as well, DRK could cast TBN which is the strongest mitigation skill in game.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Cover kind of blows now, but hopefully they have dps/healer mechs where u can use that like in O7s with the missiles.

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Cover is useful but you have to be careful when you use it, because you may receive too much damage with it when both you and target is getting damaged. In result this skill is not useful everywhere and could do more bad than good.

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

The real brokenness of Veil: You can pop it a FULL MINUTE before it is needed, yes, so long as your healers are going to put something up to proc it, you can pop it 30s before that, so it goes on CD, then, the shield lasts for a full 30s again, that's INSANE. No other tank can do that... at all. You can have so much uptime on veil it's outrageous. double the uses of it than the other tanks stuff.

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First, not full minute but 30 seconds.
Second, there is literally no chance that you as a tank wont be given some kind of party wide regen in the time and that you cannot guarantee it will proc in the needed moment. Activating this skill is a nightmare and could sometimes not proc the shield at all. Shake it of is still better.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I think their argument is that it shouldn't be the case that a tank has the ability to solo heal itself through most instanced content. They should have to rely on healer.
I think there may be some (older) dungeons with neglible healing needs that could be done more efficiently with 1 PLD and 3 dps.

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This holds no value in the end game.

I hate these nerf threads tbh.
People whined about ast being op and look at it now: in a broken state and people whining for it to come back.

Does pld break the end game content? No. Then leave it, i agree it absolutely needs no more buffs, but it isn't op enough to deserve a debuff either; it has its own drawbacks. The other tanks play just as well in my experience.

Theres no total balance, it's what makes things unique.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

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Funny how you mention diminishing returns on Intervention, but somehow "GNB and DRK equivalent is still a lot better" than Veil that suffers none of these. Also Veil has had 90 second cd ever since 5.0, on top of the fact that PLD has another raid mitigation skill - another mitigation skill which will not suffer diminishing returns when stacked together with Veil if you so choose. Have you played PLD?

It is also true that Veil can be used - and therefore put on cd to be reused earlier - almost 60 seconds in advance. You have 30 seconds to pop it and then another 30 of the shield itself. It might be a stretch that you could hold it that long realistically, but it still offers way more room than any other raidwide.
It's only "a nightmare" if you're playing in completely unorganized DF content - where honestly it's a miracle if tanks use any mitigation at all, be it raid or personal - so who cares anyways.

Suggesting PLD's utility is anywhere close to bad is as laughable as claiming that DRK has bad personal mitigation. Those are things these jobs specifically excel at - saying otherwise just shows the person is simply bad at utilizing their tool-kits.