Every inconvenience is a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

First of all, your premise is highly highly highly faulty. It assumes that there is some universal concept of "easy" and "difficult" with the latter indicating long-term value. Different ppl find different things easy or difficult; Learning physics is hard as all get-out, etc. Learning your first language was easy..you didnt even exert much effort..and look what you can do with it now. There's no such thing as one size fits all. Here I thought this was common sense.

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You used blanket statements about two things being easy or hard in a post that criticizes someone making blanket statements about things being easy or hard.... just sayin.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Oh look, another mmorpg "I know it all"...this is original.

First of all, your premise is highly highly highly faulty. It assumes that there is some universal concept of "easy" and "difficult" with the latter indicating long-term value. Different ppl find different things easy or difficult; it is impossible, therefore, to claim that something is worthwhile only if it is challenging. Nothing could be further from the truth.

As an example, let's take going for a walk. Going for a walk is not particularly hard, unless of course you are obese, out of shape, or have physical limitations. Would you say walking regularly is worthwhile? By your definition, no. But quite frankly, going on walks regularly has remarkable health benefits and many people find it extremely rewarding.

Now before you say, "but learning to walk was challenging," I will counter by saying that learning to do *anything* new is challenging. Still that doesn't make them worthwhile. Learning physics is hard as all get-out, but I imagine a fair amount of ppl would simply say its a waste of time, and many more wouldn't find it fun at all. So please, stop acting like you *know* what fun is. You know what fun is for you, for some, for many, but not for everyone; that is it.

The challenge in any MMORPG is to find a balance. Different ppl have different concepts of "fun" and sometimes the simplest things are the most worthwhile. Learning your first language was easy..you didnt even exert much effort..and look what you can do with it now. You can learn, you can teach, you can joke around with friends...this easy task became very worthwhile. The same goes in an MMO: you need a variety of things with varying difficulties to try and appeal to as many ppl as possible. There's no such thing as one size fits all. Here I thought this was common sense.

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No, actually, the first thing I thought was that obese people find walking difficult because they naturally carry unnatural inhibitors. As walking is a physical activity and play games is almost wholly a mental one, you're almost qualifying these 'mentally obese' players as, well, stupid. You shouldn't do that.

Thank you for entitling me as an MMORPG know-it-all. I shall wear my crown wherever I go!

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

You used blanket statements about two things being easy or hard in a post that criticizes someone making blanket statements about things being easy or hard.... just sayin.

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You should probably read more carefully. The argument criticizes someone concluding that something is worthwhile based on blanket statements of easy or hard. My point is that easy or hard doesn't matter, as ppl have different opinions about them. My opinion is that

1) learning your language is easy
2) learning physics is hard

Based on that opinion i can only say "some ppl" or "Many" would find physics a waste of time, and I can say for a fact that learning your first language is worthwhile (otherwise you couldnt function in society).

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

You should probably read more carefully. The argument criticizes someone concluding that something is worthwhile based on blanket statements of easy or hard. My point is that easy or hard doesn't matter, as ppl have different opinions about them. My opinion is that

1) learning your language is easy
2) learning physics is hard

Based on that opinion i can only say "some ppl" or "Many" would find physics a waste of time, and I can say for a fact that learning your first language is worthwhile (otherwise you couldnt function in society).

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Learning your first language is hardly learning. It's more a product of your daily environment - something that is bound to happen, even for the mentally challenged.

What everyone fails to realize is that each game has its own positives and negatives. in XI I could pull out several, in WOW the same in SWTOR another. Granted what the original developers came up with for a game the idea was there but the execution was flawed for numerous reasons. Tanaka had many great ideas which is why many of us looked at this game in the first place. The Armor system, Group crafting, Regiments, Faster battle system with no AA, all great ideas, all horribly executed partially by design partially by the way the community chose to play the game.

The overall issue with what I see here is you have 2 fan bases, you have the XI crowd which falls into the we want harder longer content crowd, and you have the WOW crowd which is looking for things to be displayed and done just a little bit differently. There is going to be a good balance somewhere, sadly I do not see it coming until 2.0, and when it gets here I would expect a plethora of new content that appeases to both crowds. If 2.0 launches with anything less then 6 new Dungeons, New Storyline, AH, New Maps, Open World content, and a new level cap then personally for me I consider it a failure, 2.0 needs to literally have 6 months of new content in it to keep people interested, it needs not be tedious just to be tedious, it needs to have definitive purpose to work right.

So its okay for you to declare some things as worthwhile and others not as long as difficulty doesn't factor into the equation? Forgive me for not figuring that out at first as it seems a statement that a mentally obese person might make lol :P Something being worthwhile or not worthwhile is a decision that each person needs to make for themselves. That would be a way to say it without talking in silly circles and analogies. If you're trying to make a succinct point with a minor division between your point and a very similar point you should stick to direct language. If nothing else it would alleviate confusion among the mentally obese.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Learning your first language is hardly learning. It's more a product of your daily environment - something that is bound to happen, even for the mentally challenged.

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Lol learning is learning. Just because it was effortless doesn't that it doesn't mean count. Not all worthwhile endeavors are difficult.

As far as calling ppl stupid goes, I'm not necessarily doing that. Its the reality of life that just as ppl are physically handicapped, ppl are mentally handicapped as well. They could very well be stupid, they could just be ignorant, or they could be mentally challenged. Or the game itself is not really the equivalent of taking a walk...there's that option too. It is what it is, maybe I shouldn't say that but its the truth lol


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Originally Posted by Peptaru

So its okay for you to declare some things as worthwhile and others not as long as difficulty doesn't factor into the equation? Forgive me for not figuring that out at first as it seems a statement that a mentally obese person might make lol :P Something being worthwhile or not worthwhile is a decision that each person needs to make for themselves. That would be a way to say it without talking in silly circles and analogies. If you're trying to make a succinct point with a minor division between your point and a very similar point you should stick to direct language. If nothing else it would alleviate confusion among the mentally obese.

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I declared learning a language as worthwhile. If you can make any argument to the contrary I will retract that point and call it an opinion. But you'll have to make it good, I find it hard to believe there's an argument that learning your first language was a waste of time. You can hardly function in life without it, unless you dont find functioning in society worthwhile? Like I said, if you can prove to me otherwise i'll retract it.

Idk why you're insisting on arguing for the sake of arguing, when the premise of the argument was correct. Some ppl have nothing better to do I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Lol learning is learning. Just because it was effortless doesn't that it doesn't mean count. Not all worthwhile endeavors are difficult.

As far as calling ppl stupid goes, I'm not necessarily doing that. Its the reality of life that just as ppl are physically handicapped, ppl are mentally handicapped as well. They could very well be stupid, they could just be ignorant, or they could be mentally challenged. Or the game itself is not really the equivalent of taking a walk...there's that option too. It is what it is, maybe I shouldn't say that but its the truth lol

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You and SE must be on the same page, which I disagree with. It's a bit harsh and selfish to admit, but I don't want to play a game with the mentally obese. I want to play a game with people who can help themselves and don't whine when they have to put forth effort to get something done.

If you don't have the time for an MMO, because an MMO is naturally time-consuming, then don't play it. I don't know any other answer.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

My apologies, but all these posts really make me want to do is say, "If you have no motivation, no initiative, no drive to experience a (MMORPG) game and all of its inconveniences/timesinks/challenges, then please save yourself the headache and play an offline RPG".

Nothing that is worthwhile is, nor ever should be, easy in any respect.

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Complete ignorance. I cannot count how many times XI purists have used this as a type of "valid" argument because they cannot come with any logical or substantiating retort to statements being critical of XI.

Let me return your phrase to you and see how you enjoy it.

XIV isn't a game that has mindless tedium. You should learn this and go play XI and leave XIV alone.

Do I believe the above statement? No, because it is pure ignorance. Don't throw completely naive statements around without backing them up.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

If you don't have the time for an MMO, because an MMO is naturally time-consuming, then don't play it. I don't know any other answer.

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I agree with this statement to a degree. MMOs should not be all casual/handout/friendly. WoW has become such a formulaic and self-entitled MMO, that it severely lacks achievement or prestige in anything. On the flipside, MMOs should not be riddled with inane barriers or tedium tasks beyond comprehension.

The point being, everyone is unique and has different life circumstances. Some people may only get a total of three hours to play an MMO, but enjoy it quite greatly. Should they just go an "NOT PLAY" an MMO due to their limited play time? No, and it is ignorant to assume that.

Can we PLEASE get back on Topic?..... This whole "Mentally challeneged/Phyiscally Challenge" Conversation could be very offensive to some people.