I don't mind being lowest dps taht's not the issue. IT's how low the dps is. There shouldn't be that much of a gap between the lowest dps and the next lowest dps. Hell I didn't care about my dps in SB. I could make the checks and do the dmg. I was useful and didn't worry about pugs that just picked up a troller yesterday outshining me.
TA being a thing is dumb in itself. If an ability becomes the sole purpose or reason for your influence of a class you need to get rid of that skill because it will break it somewhere down the line.(Make it to strong or to weak) Utsusemi in XI was a good example. And allowing players to decide how your game functions should never happen. You have a vision follow it. Input is good but should never be the basis of influence.
As for dropping TA or not. It only matters if it influences the class/job overall. It doesn't. Ninja benefits as much from TA as a DRG from peircing reduction. Not at all when you can just put the potencies it gives into your basic combo. If they drop it it'll be one less button I have to push or they'll sub it for another skill that will likely be more useful to me. Either way it'll have no real influence over me as a ninja. I don't care about party composition. That only becomes a factor when there are huge differences between jobs when it comes to doing their jobs, like right now.
5.08 Nin buff / 5.1 Ninja getting gutted...
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08-15-2019, 04:29 AMUliq
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08-15-2019, 04:43 AMTenryouWe going area 51 memes on this? cause tbh i agree with you lmfaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Machi_Machiavelli
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08-15-2019, 04:59 AMTaiyouSeishin
#notmytrickattack ?
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08-15-2019, 05:58 AMShurrikhanIt certainly has been. And it is still worth as much pDPS as it gives rDPS... There is no difference to quantitative job performance between the two. Ninja, like 5 other jobs, are just undertuned at present. I'd rather not see us be even more dependent on our party, but I'd rather not lose Trick Attack either, and thus would hope to simply get more pDPS. I'd rather not see Aeolian devalued even further in the process, and would ideally like to see more options made more viable where necessary to reach balance at any given level and the rest allocated to Bunshin. Simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machi_Machiavelli
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08-15-2019, 06:04 AMDrayosa minority of players seriously beleive "Job Complexity = higher DPS". not many actually beleives this, why? because the ones who do are choosing complexity for the wrong reasons, and generally get complexity nerfed as this post litterally shoutsQuote:
Originally Posted by Nielk
"Job Skill Curve differences are far too wide to justify Balancing". Which translates to "healthiest option is to reduce the Skill Curve of Ninja" you seen the Considerations? lets go through them..
- Pressing too many buttons, This overall means they feel the Ninja has TOO many things to keep track of, this could be a Loss of several things, Such as Increasing the CDs of OGCDs to spread the OGCDs further apart to reduce the quantity of maintaince or go as far as Removing Abilities.
- Re-aligning the Combo, This Could litterally mean they're going to remove Shadow fang from Ninja, Removing a Entire maintaince of the ninja straight up.
- Mudras problems, this is going to litterally put Mudras on a GCD, which means u'll have a wider gap between uses and a longer period of time to hit each one. this will again make Ninja Easier.
your looking at 5.08/5.1 Simplifying your job, so ur problems Go away, they're not going to INTENTIONALLY make a job Overpowered because of Difficulty, they're going to nerf ur Difficulty. so when reading the notes on updates of ninja how did this not become apprant to you, theres Litterally a entire thread asking SE NOT to do these changes because they're simplifications.
heres Some advice.
When u choose your main Job, If DPS is this much of a Focus for you, Dont pick the one with the Utility and before u say "i love the assassin play! Its Ment to do DPS" no, throughout MMORPG history, Rogues/Assassins/Ninjas have had the concept of Increasing Damage taken with Vunerability and more, the difference is, Unlike Western MMORPGS its Actually a balancing tool for SE and just because you have a problem with that doesnt mean their Targetted Audience does.
Lets Pick apart ur argument further.
you compare Ninja directly to 2 Jobs which will likely be nerfed in the same patch ur buffed, both of those jobs are overperforming. do u not see, the fact they're buffing over half the jobs inthe game Passively nerfs both these jobs?... comparing ur job to overpowered Jobs Doesnt prove ur underpowered, it just proves how overpowered these jobs are, and weather they're indirectly nerfed by shifting everyone forwards or pulled back it'll nerf their % Against other jobs reguardless.. so again ur next problems fixed.
TD;LR.
Notes have already said ninjas being Simplified. ur Arguments have driven this and tbh if u argue against it now, ur arguing against ur entire statement here.
Potency buffs have been promised but balancing around Trick attack also has, It isnt going. Pick a Pure DPS if thats all you care about.
DRG and Monk will either be directly potency wise or indirectly Nerfed by the Shift in DPS for lower Performaning Jobs.
Ninjas over 1000 RDPS, DRG and Monk are 525, It still doesnt balance out u evening with them DPS Wise.
SE didnt ask for opinons on Ninja either :P they've already told us what they're intending to change with the job :P, u're better off giving feedback on ur opinons of the Changes they're going to implement rather then its current performance which has Already been addressed with fixs intended for the job.
the Changes that have been proposed will put ur Mudras on a GCD, Put u on a 1 2 3 Combo and be looking into ur OGCDS :P, if it doesnt shout simplification i dont know what will and the fact they're still addressing trick attack as a balancing Point They're not removing it, they wont do something like that mid expansion now u'll be waiting on 6.0 to see if that becomes a thing.
RDMs have been shouting to remove Instant rezz for higher potencies for a Loooong time, they've still not done it, SE have Stuck pretty straight to these RDPS Factors both defensively and offensively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenryou
problem isnt balancing around Trick attack, the problem is they overestimated its impact, its a 1000 RDPS Gain while u perform like 3k Less DPS comparitively to the DRG/Monk/SAM. they've done this too all jobs with utility.
RDM is 3k Beneath BLM. Ninja is 3k Beneath Monk/DRG the problem is Simply this, They got Balance differences in DPS Right between the physical Ranged and they're actually underpowered for it because how Wide the DPS Differences are in the other 2 Role catagories throwing the DPS Ceiling and Floor so god damn wide. trick attack is fine. the problem lays with the Utility tax being Far too high.
adjust Ninjas Rotation abit with the proposed changes made by SE and then go on to Up the overall DPS of Ninja by 700-1000 DPS and the job would be Fine :P, It'll sit on 13-14k DPS RDPS Value which will put it in Line with the Top performing Jobs RDPS Wise and put it in the correct place PDPS Wise for its RDPS Value realistically. -
08-15-2019, 07:16 AMTaiyouSeishinThe only problem with what you said, is im assuming you are given MAX rdps value of utilities. And you say to bring up nin in dps by 700 to 1000, considering we are 3 k behind like you said, we would still be behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drayos
Also, while i do not believe that a class should be tuned higher in damage for more complexity, at the same moment you cannt have a job be too complex for no reward either. Trick is over valued as you said the problem is that dps utility is ALWAYS hard to balance, because it needs to net a higher dps value for it to be worth it. Hindering pdps for utility is fine, but dps utility makes that harder.
Also, in terms of rdps vs pdps, what would you consider "in line"... -
08-15-2019, 07:41 AMCrashofZenkiDo you actually have any idea of what you are writing about? I have been playing NIN since its release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drayos
Dont feed the troll. stand still and maybe it goes away.
On a serious note tho. and on topic.
So what is basically said here is... Dont complain because we will ultimately end up with classes that only has one button?
If this is how its gonna be. A game where only non-utility classes are valued, then thats not a game I want to support with my money. -
08-15-2019, 09:26 AMVendalwindI agree. And I also have played NIN since release, however I only really started raiding in deltascape. up till that point I was a filthy casual :DQuote:
Originally Posted by CrashofZenki
You obviously dont actually know much about MMO history my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drayos
Thematically rogues have been the highest burst dmg, but also are generally quite high sustain too. WOW's history has strong rogues. Guild wars history has strong rogues. Ragnarok online had INCREDIBLE rogues.
So you are fooling yourself if you think rogue play has always been about the debuffs and tactics. Thats DND rogue. Not MMO rogue. And even in DND rogues can be quite strong, they are actually frequently only underpowered because DMs/GMs have a weird habit of being biased and making bad rulings against them (oh the classic DM ruling that you can only sneak attack if literally attacking from stealth instead of mid combat with an allies help.)
If giving feedback yields closed ears from the devs and a general simplification then I will also stop supporting this game.
Furthermore the assumption that thats how the devs will react to everything is stupid. Giving feedback is literally the only way players can have an impact on what the devs think. I have no idea how you could read into that opening post and suddenly convince yourself that the devs are gonna read it and be like "oh guess we should make NIN a 1 button class" But I honestly have more faith in them than that.
You on the other hand are basically fear mongering conjecture while telling other people to stop sharing their opinions and hopes for the class. Honestly its idiotic.
and as a final note, the assumption that the devs are 100% putting mudras on the GCD is still an assumption. Read the differing translations and you will realize that there are definitely still things up in the air. The literal BEST time to have your voice heard is right now when changes are in process. Literally earlier this expansion they told everyone to just be quiet and wait for the 5.05 changes. The fact that they are scrambling, and even adding a 5.08 should clue you into the fact that all of these changes are still works in progress.
This is literally the BEST time to try to talk about your individual hopes for NIN -
08-15-2019, 04:05 PMDrayosI aint a balancing guy, sadly, i cannot tell exact numbers, i know at 99 percentile Ninja in Savage is doing 12-13k DPS, but the DPS at 75th percentile and more is MUCH wider, this is where the 3k is coming from, but Ninjas averaging at 12k DPS at 99 percentile in Savage apart from one fight, but its Not the only one that falls behind in DPS... majority of Jobs do it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin
the Simplification they have talked over should allow lower performing Ninjas actually get closer to DPS potientals, and the GCD on Ninjitsus will actually make it more latency friendly reducing the impact Ping has overall, which will also do the same thing.
With a 1000 DPS buff they'll be on 13k, with Trick attack RDPS Wise 14k, BLM does 14.5k DPS.
So combined together This will close the gaps much further then u thing.
ofcourse this is taking into account we're expecting Monk to be Nerfed and DRG to maybe be touched also, so if the damage ceiling is also brought down by nerfing the Over performing jobs this will indirectly buff Ninjas DPS comparitively, so combined.. it should bring Ninja waay closer to the top in RDPS Value.
i didnt say dont complain, I said That the whole mentality of "MY JOBS DIFFICULT THEREFORE I SHOULD BE BEST" is dooming, Complaining a Job Doesnt do enough PDPS to justify isnt a Complaint, its a Fact of the state of balance currently. theres a huge difference in this. my post was Saying, they are Simplifying Ninja, it Isnt going to be as complex when 5.08/5.1 arrives, so ur Idea that it should work this way in the long run will smooth out anyway as ur COmplexity will be reduced overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashofZenki
it isnt "trolling" its the truth, Look at the buffs we've seen Come through So Far.
Bard, DRG, Monk, MCH have all become quite abit easier to play and these are the jobs SE have touched the most. there is Evidence that this is taking place and Jobs are being Simplified, With 2 more going under the Rework, both with several statements which WOULD reduce its Complexity and the focus of their attention on REDUCING BUTTON PRESSES and OGCDs it defintly Implys that the reworks will Simplify these jobs for you.
i aint saying Dont talk about changes u want to see, im saying that proclaiming these Changes Should be made Because of Job Skill curve Differences Will imply your saying something your not. As ur Trying to use it as a Justification to Imbalance the game itself.
please tell me a MMORPG today thats Successful in a Western audience where they physically balance the game Under Difficulty :P, cause i really cant think of any. WoW ESO and FFXIV have Never abided by such a Rule neither did GW2 or Rift during its more Successful days. Imbalance will kill a Game, and balancing on difficulty will do exactly that.
we'll all run around as the IDENTICAL job because its the top performance. Diversity would Die because no ones seriously going to choose a Job at the bottom of the List. Look at monk, its hit top DPS and MULTIPLIED in popularity in raiding.
you do not need to be a Veteran to understand the affects Imbalance can have on a game, u Simply need to a Background in the Genre to see the affects bad balancing can have on a MMORPG. i maybe new to FFXIV, but i have been in MMOs for 20 years and have seen several times Where balance is a Issue, if U didnt care about balance u Wouldnt be complaining. nor would anyone Else. its because of Balancing Several Jobs are currently rioting due to poor performance. Ur changes will just bring the other half of the jobs into the forums to make the same complaints.
I didnt say they didnt if u read what i said properly i said OTHER GAMES DID NOT TAKE RDPS INTO BALANCE FACTOR.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
Rogue in WOW for example has also been a top tier DPS option, but it has had ALOT of iterations of Vunerability and Aggro management tools, WoW Just never Nerfed their Personal DPS to compensate for the quantity of Utility the job has, but this has Also ment WoW at MULTIPLE points have pidgeon holed its playerbase in 4 Classes which people just Stack ontop of each other rather then trying to be Diverse in Choice, its actually affecting the game quite negatively as its making their Game more boring to watch by the playerbase as ALOT of people complain all they ever see is the EXACT same comp Done by EVERY team ALL the time.
did u not read the 70 Questions they answered? they litterally said putting it on GCDs to solve the issues of people unable to use it due to ping.... lol
Ninjutsu is easily influenced by lag, and we were reaching a limit as to how we could adjust it, so we are planning to restructure ninjutsu itself. The playstyle of putting together mudra will remain, but they will not be weaved between GCDs.
while translation could be Lost, its Clear by Some defining words. that it does make it sound Like they're going to do, and given the changes Prior this is again Something ALOT of players have asked for, The moment Dancer hit the scenes quite a few Players said "why cant Ninjutsu Work like Dancers Dances" because it is a HUGE problem for latency players. if this Doesnt happen then my statement isnt Applicable any longer. but clearly my opinons are beneath the fact i am assuming this is something they're looking into and this is a Fix that is highly likely the most effective.
theres Several people big People in the community who can translate Japanease. i'd imagine if we had gotten the Idea So entirely wrong, someone would of mentioned it when the 20,000 Videos of reviewing those Live letters.. so its Quite possible we actually do have the right idea of what they're doing.
reviewing every other Rework that has happened so far in SHB, Every job has been SImplified in their changes, Why do u think Ninja and Summoner would remain so simple. and while Some translation is wrong (ONE WORD in the Summoners wording lead some truth to this) ALL the changes Imply Simplification.. this isnt like one Statement.. every change Implied Talked abvout REDUCING the Complexity of the job lol.
again as Stated. anything can change, They could go further then theyv'e said they could do Less then they've Said.. they could overbuff any job they could Underbuff any job. Balance will do a Loop throughout 5.08 to 5.1 due to how Many jobs are Likely to be buffed over the course of these two patchs, so the final outcome could come out anywhere. but when speculating on buffs its obvious if they've changed they statement wasnt made with that knowledge. -
08-15-2019, 05:25 PMVendalwindI have read, I watched too, And btw I happen to actually be one of those people on the English forums that speaks Japanese.................Quote:
Originally Posted by Drayos
And they way I heard it was it was one of the options they were CONSIDERING to fix the class. Which is exactly why speaking out against it is still a good idea.
And even if it were something they already planned on; people can still speak against it pre-emptively.
I do agree with you tho, they seem to be moving towards simplification.
If simplification comes in the form of removing the technical issues hurting a class Im hopeful, you are right chances are, based on past evidence, that the simplification will drastically reduce the difficulty.
But i still think that arguing difficulty should be more rewarding is not indirectly asking for simplification. Thats you and Devs (if they do it) reading into other peoples words without actually thinking about what the person that said it meant. Vieing to tell anyone to offer less feedback is stupid. We can argue against the way things are balanced freely if we so choose.