Why are standards seen as a crime in this game?

Jack missed Rage of Halone

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Originally Posted by ElazulHP

Learning shouldn't be criticized if they're actually attempting to learn. Everyone was new once and should be afforded the opportunity to learn the content. I dare you to find someone that was flawless on their first couple of runs at something. Now if they're not even trying to learn that is something else entirely.

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Thing is you can be new to a fight and a dungeon but if for an example a tank doing the Burn for the first time should know by then how to do the basics of their job. There is a cut off point to where you're new to the job and the thing you're running.

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Originally Posted by ElazulHP

Learning shouldn't be criticized if they're actually attempting to learn. Everyone was new once and should be afforded the opportunity to learn the content. I dare you to find someone that was flawless on their first couple of runs at something. Now if they're not even trying to learn that is something else entirely.

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Being new is one thing, that is okay. Everyone was new. I will happily help out any new player I meet.

However, if you reach level 70 and you do not understand the basics of your class, at that point you are not a new player, you are a leech.

Being new and being a leech are 2 vastly separate things.

A new player, a decent amount of them want to learn. And they're going to fail. They will die. They will take unnecessary damage. If i roll a low level dungeon, I expect them to be bad, I expect them to die, I expect them to have terrible performance, because they are new. And that is okay.

What I find unacceptable however are max level players who still don't understand the basics of their class. That, is no longer being new. That, is a leech. I've encountered quite a few max level players that fail at basic mechanics, such as staying in orange markers constantly with their excuse being "i'm new."

I'm sorry but if by level 70 you haven't figured out that staying in the orange marker is bad, there is a major problem there, and being "new" is not the issue.

Edit: Learning is encouraged. Being a leech, should not be encouraged.

The Smith teaches novice stuff but by the time you reach 70 the game just expects you to have read your tooltips and i dunno managed to integrate yourself into the community at large and have some friends at least that you can talk to. I mean it is an MMO after all, you should be all talking with your fellow players and friends and learning from each other. but solo players wanna solo and there's so many people that are like I have no friends. *shrug*

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

The Smith teaches novice stuff but by the time you reach 70 the game just expects you to have read your tooltips and i dunno managed to integrate yourself into the community at large and have some friends at least that you can talk to. I mean it is an MMO after all, you should be all talking with your fellow players and friends and learning from each other. but solo players wanna solo and there's so many people that are like I have no friends. *shrug*

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Which is still no excuse because there are guides for almost everything in the game.

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

I see this often, and personally I find this whole thing rather disgusting and obnoxious.

Having standards for players seems to a crime among this community and you will only be met with insults and overall terrible and toxic behaviour.

For example, it's rather standard to expect a level 70 tank player to understand Enmity and how it works. Yet I meet an insane amount of level 70 tank only players that do not understand the basics of enmity and how to hold aggro.

Another example is with the AoE mechanics aka the orange markers. I encounter many people that stand in them at levels 50+ because they don't realize that orange marker = bad.

It's completely mind boggling that this is considered acceptable by a large part of the community.

Those same people, if you criticize their actions because they don't understand basic game mechanics at pretty high levels if not max level itself, respond with insults, toxicity, "you don't pay my sub", "i'm new so i'm entitled to wiping raids because im learning", "i play how i want to", "you don't control my account" and so on.

And if you don't say anything to them, you get called a toxic elitist for choosing not to help them.

In the vast majority of other MMOs, if you are a bad player, you will be called a bad player, people will try to help, you are given the opportunity to improve and stop being a bad player.

In FF14, if you are a bad player, you cannot be criticized because the other person can report you for harassment and you'll probably get a warning under the new rules they implemented, and if you don't help them you get called a toxic elitist anyway.

Why is it such a crime to have actual STANDARDS in this game? No one is asking anyone to be the top 1%, or outright the top player in the world, however I would say it should be a very normal and common thing to expect high level players to understand at least the BASICS of combat and their class. Currently this fact is treated by the community like you just committed a war crime.

Why are standards a crime? Why do people think it's acceptable to waste everyone's time by wiping a raid repeatedly and when offered advice they respond with toxicity? This is a pretty common thing, and i find it mind boggling.

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its not that standards are shunned its how you present it, the same way as you created this thread, comes off pompous and arrogant and belittling. gotta learn communication skills and most people in the game will be successful from my experience.

I personally believe its the WoW community that has infected our community with their ways of playing, mostly the european wow community that has infected their way of gaming.
Since the WoW community has also become a majority of the playerbase they kinda dictate certain behavior to be deemed as acceptable. Just look at how the novice networks are on many non legacy servers / new datacenters pay attention to the servers and how that mindset is.
If this was FFXI you would get filtered out really quick but thanks to the duty finder players can get away with certain gameplay and behavior because duty finder is among the most unpersonal things in this game. You can afford to play solo for a looooong time.

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Originally Posted by guardin

its not that standards are shunned its how you present it, the same way as you created this thread, comes off pompous and arrogant and belittling. gotta learn communication skills and most people in the game will be successful from my experience.

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You can be as polite as you want. People will still ignore you or insult you if you dare to explain them what they do wrong and how its done right. Sure there are some players that will try to do what you've explained to them but most of them won't not even if you are sweet as sugar to them.

SkizzleAbernath you know exactly how all WoW players play and its their fault that there are tons of players in FF are like the OP described. WoW players are also now the majority of the playerbase? Whut? Holy moly this is a statement. lol

This is why I only play with about three people now, we all take breaks at the same time, speak outside of the game...
The community wasn't like this on day one of ARR...but maybe rose tinted goggles >.<

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Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

I see this often, and personally I find this whole thing rather disgusting and obnoxious.

Having standards for players seems to a crime among this community and you will only be met with insults and overall terrible and toxic behaviour.

For example, it's rather standard to expect a level 70 tank player to understand Enmity and how it works. Yet I meet an insane amount of level 70 tank only players that do not understand the basics of enmity and how to hold aggro.

Another example is with the AoE mechanics aka the orange markers. I encounter many people that stand in them at levels 50+ because they don't realize that orange marker = bad.

It's completely mind boggling that this is considered acceptable by a large part of the community.

Those same people, if you criticize their actions because they don't understand basic game mechanics at pretty high levels if not max level itself, respond with insults, toxicity, "you don't pay my sub", "i'm new so i'm entitled to wiping raids because im learning", "i play how i want to", "you don't control my account" and so on.

And if you don't say anything to them, you get called a toxic elitist for choosing not to help them.

In the vast majority of other MMOs, if you are a bad player, you will be called a bad player, people will try to help, you are given the opportunity to improve and stop being a bad player.

In FF14, if you are a bad player, you cannot be criticized because the other person can report you for harassment and you'll probably get a warning under the new rules they implemented, and if you don't help them you get called a toxic elitist anyway.

Why is it such a crime to have actual STANDARDS in this game? No one is asking anyone to be the top 1%, or outright the top player in the world, however I would say it should be a very normal and common thing to expect high level players to understand at least the BASICS of combat and their class. Currently this fact is treated by the community like you just committed a war crime.

Why are standards a crime? Why do people think it's acceptable to waste everyone's time by wiping a raid repeatedly and when offered advice they respond with toxicity? This is a pretty common thing, and i find it mind boggling.

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I understand that everyone has different experiences in this game. Different DCs, servers, cultures, etc. However, I don't find this behavior to be anywhere near as prevalent as you make it out to be. Aether is by no means a low pop DC and houses both US and EU players, which are considered the most toxic, and Siren has its days where the shout chatlog needs be filtered to avoid seeing things that many would find offensive. During duties though, there have only been a handful of players that I would consider to be toxic.

I don't dismiss the problem with max level players not knowing the basics of their role. I get tanks with enmity issues, low HP, and never using a defensive cooldown. I get DPS players disguised in healer robes who flat out never heal. I get actual DPS players who just can't stay on their feet, so I know of the issue. I just don't see it all that much, and I play all three roles.

What I do encounter more frequently are the players with high standards that don't make getting clears any easier. The ones that will give unsolicited advice during a dungeon. The ones that abandon or initiate a dismissal after one wipe during a raid (when their advice would actually be welcome). The ones who exercise precisely zero patience whatsoever when there is a new player in the duty. Even with these players, it really isn't all that common, but much more common than all of these "bad players" people complain about.

It's not a crime to have standards, but you are also under no obligation to play with those you deem as bad. Eject yourself from the duty, and we will wait for someone else to come along with a little more patience and a lower set of standards. When the game allows players to reach max level so quickly and easily, you're going to have to let a little bit slide. Being max level means absolutely nothing when it comes to how much actual experience someone has playing a certain job. I do have my own set of standards that requires players to at least know the basics of their role, and care about not wasting other people's time. When I encounter those who cannot perform to those expectations, I leave. Simple as that, because I already know that players who cannot do this are a lost cause and there is no point trying to beat anything into their skulls. I don't' have the energy for it.