Please Buff Tenacity So Tanks Actually Want To Use Tank Stance

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Envoyé par ManuelBravo

So in other words make tank role easy enough that even the most incompetent of players can play the role? Tanking takes skill, knowledge of mechanics, and tactics. Right now they seem well balance and if anything people who understand it can play it with the exception of newer savage content. I think it's more of the players that need more training on the role than the job it self. If anything I would give a boost to Cool downs.

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I'd say yes on that for DRK, they need a ton of love. PLD and WAR are pretty damn good with their CDs as is; any more and it'd start being faceroll easy. I love the fact that the new shake it off requires burning a CD to get better party mitigation than PLD's veil. Still, good use of WAR cds means you can line up your CDs for busters and raid-wide damage. Optimizing that for savage fights and ex primals is proving to be really fun.

Tanking requires memorization of an encounter, when to press button, and healer does rest. Ergo no real tanking involved. And why should there be if the healer will top you off anyway.

Want to get rid of Tank stance? Want to make life easy. All right.

Plop this on every attack skill Tanks have. Additional Effect : Inflicting damage with skill generates aggro and also puts you at the top of the Enmity list for 15 seconds.

Because honestly only reason to go Tank Stance is Enmity.

Done deal. Easy peasy.

If SE wants tanks to actually tank in tank stance (jeebus), then they will have to learn from WoW: MoP and make each tank need to use active mitigation that is only available when in the tank stance. Even then, the way fights are, tanks would still only pop into tank stance long enough to eat the tankbuster, and pop back out. I actually would LOVE if SE made tanks more active and necessary like was done in WoW (one of the few things that game got right), but I don't think any one of us should be holding our breath.

The main advice for tanking,

DON'T be under gear.
Know your CD's / Rotation both what they do and timing.
Use food if you want some sort of temp boost.
If you feel pressure or need advice speak up.
Keep in mind everyone has their own play style don't judge unless you want to be judged.
If you wonder why healers or DPS move or act they way they do cut them some slack. Most can't understand it unless they have played that job long enough. At a minimum get one of each role to 70 to have the basics down.

The world doesn't revolve around you nor are you excluded we all have the same advantages and disadvantages. Depending on your experience, time , ect skills and understanding can vary.

Lastly have fun.

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Envoyé par ManuelBravo

The main advice for tanking,

DON'T be under gear.
Know your CD's / Rotation both what they do and timing.
Use food if you want some sort of temp boost.
If you feel pressure or need advice speak up.
Keep in mind everyone has their own play style don't judge unless you want to be judged.

The world doesn't revolve around you nor are you excluded we all have the same advantages and disadvantages. Depending on your experience, time , ect skills and understanding can vary.

Lastly have fun.

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Great. Now what relevance does that have with this topic? The title should really be updated as I believe we've all ruled out Tenacity changes as a feasible solution to tanks not really being active tanks that are PREFERRED to be in tank stance.

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Envoyé par Llus

So you would tank if you didn't have to be good at it?

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Woah, how did you get that conclusion? Hold your horses there, stop making assumptions and let's get back to the matter at hand, not the people discussing the matter.

I'm saying that the tanking stances for tank jobs in this game don't seem meaningful. They're like a cooldown that we activate for certain situations, and we try to minimize that. I don't like that design. When the community is all about "good tanks know when to use what stance" instead of "minimize tanking stance" then the stances are meaningful. That said, I don't have a better or alternate design.

So I would tank if I like the design. Which is, like, obvious in a game? We play what we like. (Well there are people who play for other stuff like satisfaction or fame or difficulty, but not me, I play for fun.)

@ManuelBravo: I created an alt on a preferred server and have been leveling that. I have been tanking since 2.0 beta (if you haven't gathered that I'm a beta player from my join date) and gradually stopped because I don't like how it's designed. I've experienced it and judged it at 50, and I've done so again at 60, and finally decided to main a DPS instead for 4.x and try out healing on the side.

Back on topic, I don't think any changes to Tenacity is going to do anything to tanking unless the design of tanks is fundamentally changed.

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Envoyé par RuneSevalle

Great. Now what relevance does that have with this topic? The title should really be updated as I believe we've all ruled out Tenacity changes as a feasible solution to tanks not really being active tanks that are PREFERRED to be in tank stance.

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Besides the fact that most people think they know how to tank and tired of seeing people complain when they are not even level 70...just friendly advice nothing more. I apologize for going off topic.

Lets be honest here, bosses like shinryu EX have worked great to put tanks back in their tank stance. Even the enrage worked out great. The only reason a tank might want to slip out of tank stance is to skip one of the ahk mourns. His enrage does not work like a dps clock till enrage begins at %hp so you can play it safe and stay in tank stance as much as you want. This is the best kind of enrage design allowing tanks to worry less about their DPS till clock begins instead of the whole fight.

For what tenacity was designed to do (be an all around nice tank stat), it's working as intended. The community is pressing tanks for DPS though because of enrage being a time spent in fight so we are melding direct cause it gives the most. Some players actually enjoy the risk vs reward that comes with tanking outside of tank stance.

For what its worth, I think it would be neat if tanking bosses relied more on being in your tank stance and off tanking being for off tanks tance and even role skills could align with this more but I don't see that happening or really anything changing.

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Envoyé par Mycow8me

Lets be honest here, bosses like shinryu EX have worked great to put tanks back in their tank stance. Even the enrage worked out great. The only reason a tank might want to slip out of tank stance is to skip one of the ahk mourns. His enrage does not work like a dps clock till enrage begins at %hp so you can play it safe and stay in tank stance as much as you want. This is the best kind of enrage design allowing tanks to worry less about their DPS till clock begins instead of the whole fight.

For what tenacity was designed to do (be an all around nice tank stat), it's working as intended. The community is pressing tanks for DPS though because of enrage being a time spent in fight so we are melding direct cause it gives the most. Some players actually enjoy the risk vs reward that comes with tanking outside of tank stance.

For what its worth, I think it would be neat if tanking bosses relied more on being in your tank stance and off tanking being for off tanks tance and even role skills could align with this more but I don't see that happening or really anything changing.

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Ummmm.... Nope? The ONLY time I'll go back into tank stance after initial pull for Shinryu is during the healer check phases with the dragon heads and that's ONLY if they're having problems curing 4 heads and 2 tanks. This is why PLD is really awesome in this fight since they can clemency heads, themselves or their co-tank during healer check phases.

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Envoyé par Zfz

Woah, how did you get that conclusion? Hold your horses there, stop making assumptions and let's get back to the matter at hand, not the people discussing the matter.

I'm saying that the tanking stances for tank jobs in this game don't seem meaningful. They're like a cooldown that we activate for certain situations, and we try to minimize that. I don't like that design. When the community is all about "good tanks know when to use what stance" instead of "minimize tanking stance" then the stances are meaningful. That said, I don't have a better or alternate design.

So I would tank if I like the design. Which is, like, obvious in a game? We play what we like. (Well there are people who play for other stuff like satisfaction or fame or difficulty, but not me, I play for fun.)

@ManuelBravo: I created an alt on a preferred server and have been leveling that. I have been tanking since 2.0 beta (if you haven't gathered that I'm a beta player from my join date) and gradually stopped because I don't like how it's designed. I've experienced it and judged it at 50, and I've done so again at 60, and finally decided to main a DPS instead for 4.x and try out healing on the side.

Back on topic, I don't think any changes to Tenacity is going to do anything to tanking unless the design of tanks is fundamentally changed.

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Envoyé par Zfz

• Make tanking stances buff your Tenacity stat, maybe double what you have?
• Remove damage penalty of tanking stances, and give dps stances an enmity reduction
• Lock damage reduction cooldowns behind the tanking stances
• Lock all enhanced enmity effects of all skills and abilities behind tanking stances
• Give tanking stances a stacking damage reflection that scales on Tenacity
• Give tanking stances an aura that improves party member stats: PLD aura +x% determination, WAR aura +y% crit rate, DRK aura +z% direct hit

I don't know. It seems that the devs want there to exist some sort of trade-off and define that as the "skill" of a tank player; i.e. knowing when to use what stance makes you more effective. Hence the damage penalty and how the damage reduction cooldowns are mostly not locked behind the tanking stances.

Honestly I don't like the current design, but it seems to be a theme with tanks and healers. Healers need to balance between dps and healing, and tanks need to balance between dps and survivability. The problem with tanks is that they can't seem to decide how fluid they want the transitions, and that influences the encounter design, and we end up with the bullshit that "good tanks spend the minimal amount of time in the tanking stance"---put in another way, there's no trade-off between dps and survivability in the vast majority of the time, because surviability isn't a problem.

I would be interested to main tank again if tank stance changes can be more meaningful and more fluid, or removed altogether.

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The above...