Well, aside from savage not being in the df and having a min ilvl :P you don't just go from minimum to over. The missing step is intended, and I think the majority of players are at the intended ilvl, since only a small % of people have actually had a4s on farm for any length of time. Does my i206 drg outgear savage even tho I've never cleared a3s? Perhaps 1+2, but over 3? I don't think so, but my item level would be over whatever minimum would be set, right? (I guess it could be like, 208 or something, then I'd be under min lol) I consider it at intended level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
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12-11-2015, 10:14 AMwhiskeybravo
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12-11-2015, 04:01 PMMrCookTMMaybe one or two str accessories, but still depending on the turn. At @i185+ some tank busters were not survivable in full slaying, partly due to hp and partly due to way lower def stats one the gear. Also why are you talking about war in particular? Hp tresholds are the same for all three tanks, and the only reason to wear a vit or melded accsessory is to meet that treshold. Tank dps in dps stance isn't too far apart too, war is just slightly ahead, though fell cleave/dps is not even the reason why war is so good and a staple for every group, that seems to be a pretty common misconception...Quote:
Originally Posted by Greedalox
@whiskeybravo
Savage is overgeared because at i205+ and with thordan weapons the gear check is gone. Tanks can wear full slaying and stay in dps stance without dying, dps don't need to bring they're best to meet the check. You can have multiple deaths in A3s and still clear it with 30+ seconds ahead of enrage. Of course many groups still struggle to beat A3/4, but this is because they're mechanically challenging fights that still require a lot of communication and raid awareness and they still punish mistakes pretty hard/require a high degree of execution. In my opinion, content is overgeared the moment when solid groups start to sell/7-man it. This has been the case in savage for quite a while now. -
12-11-2015, 04:15 PMNemesis4567Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber
While I'll agree that DPS has the least responsibility. You left out that maintaining there rotation to maximize dps is a little more complex than a tank, or a healer. -
12-11-2015, 06:47 PMValkyrie-Amber
umm not quite drk and warriors are more complex than the 1-2-3 tank pld.
the issue im stating is a dps only needs to max dps and at on average if good dps you only do about 1.5x the damage of a warrior tank.
warriors also have a lot to do maintaining stacks and all mitigating damage and tanking. but the fact they still can potentially do only say 1/3 dps less than an optimal dps seems to not feel right. -
12-11-2015, 08:04 PMGamer3427
Part of the problem I see is that SE built tanks and healers with extra powerful attacks thinking that those players would be using them less often and instead be focusing most of their time on tanking or healing, (I wonder wherever they got that idea?). Because of this tank and healer attacks hit for more power than they really should per attack, (particularly Cleric Stance healers since that actually not only switches your MND to INT, but gives you a DPS boost on top of that), so a full DPSing tank or healer can put out damage numbers comparable to or in some cases surpassing actual DPS numbers while requiring a fraction of the work to get there. Theoretically in normal content this won't end up being the case because they will have to eventually tank or heal to keep the party from wiping, but when they find a work around to that, (have one player solo heal/tank in eight player content meant to require two of that role, usually), they get high numbers fairly easily.....
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12-11-2015, 08:16 PMFebrusIf we're talking about current content, then Pld's are no longer a 1-2-3 Tank. They're still not nearly as complex in usage as War and Drk, but they do have 3 combos and a dps rotation that is not all that different from Wars (just much lower in Dps).Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber
You should also keep in mind that there are 2 factors to War's that contribute to their high Dps output that most people do not consider.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber
The first is that War's aren't as complicated as most people make them out to be (at least not from a pure Dps standpoint). I'm not saying they're easy to tank with, but everything is fluid for a War. Their stacks of Wrath/Abandon pretty much take care of themselves, because their combos generate them. Their OGCD moves do not interrupt those combos. Stance dancing does not interrupt their combos. Inner Beast is both a buff, attack, and Hp regen. A large chunk of their mitigation and Dps are applied only by using their combos, and several of their moves allow them to ignore the penalty of their Tank stance even while their tanking. If they want to maximize their combo Dps, they only need to rotate 2 of the 3 (assuming their okay with ignoring mitigation, which I should point out is no different or more complicated than Pld's combos, at the moment). The most difficult part of Dps as a War is actually theory crafting when to swap stances and utilize Fell Cleave (or decimate in a multiple mob tanking situation). Easy stance dancing makes this pretty simple, and if the War is OT, this isn't even an issue.
The second part that people don't consider is that Warriors typically have 100% up-time on the boss when MT'ing. When in the MT position, there are literally no interruptions to their Dps in most boss fights. Real Dps don't always have that luxury. Sometimes they have to follow fight mechanics that take them away from the boss. OT War's also suffer this setback, but unlike the MT war they get a dmg boost from not tanking or worrying about things like buffs. They use a simple 2 combo rotation, Fell Cleave all day, and pop Berserk when it comes up to get additional Dps without the setback of Defiance's dmg penalty. -
12-11-2015, 09:14 PMCarstien
I skimmed once I saw the 'double damage' theory about tanks and dps. It's nonsense.
This has never been a thing in ff. -
12-12-2015, 12:19 AMwhiskeybravoNeither of the points are relative for a tank in tank gear, though. I can do perfect combos, have perfect timing for fell cleaves and 100% uptime, but if I'm not wearing str gear then I just look like a crappy war. Conversely, I can wear full str, put out half the effort and have amazing looking numbers by comparison. Now, without getting into what's the right or wrong way to play, it should be easy enough to see this has very little to do with the job itself and everything to do with what gear your're wearing. If you want to compare pld, drk, war dps with each other, either in vit or str, then that's fine, I just think the dynamic changes when you compare dps geared tank to dps geared dps, it's more or less just dps vs dps at that point, not tank vs dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
I would only say that those particular people are overgeared for their skill level, as well as anyone that has had a4s on farm for a while and thus has all the gear available. Would you tell a player with i205 + thordan weapon who has never stepped foot in alex savage that they overgear it? Surely they have the gear to be able to clear it given enough practice, but would you really tell them they overgear it?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrCookTM
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12-12-2015, 12:45 AMTwiliteI don't know about DRK, but WAR is basically 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. Although keep in mind, every WAR plays differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber
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12-12-2015, 12:56 AMMrCookTMQuote:
Originally Posted by lulunami
I just checked the Elysium A3s week 3 kill. The hp numbers both tanks have are not reachable in full slaying with the gear available at that point, not even close.
That's exactly what I would tell them. At almost full 210 eso with 205 weapon the gearcheck for savage is gone. However, the skillcheck still remains, which alone is enough to keep many groups from clearing.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiskeybravo