Anyone tried i90 ACN?

I'm fairly certain Torin's own simulations lead to the fact that Determination is indeed better than equal amounts of Critical Hit Rating as a secondary stat.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...e_simulations/

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Originally Posted by Torin

So, I've spent a couple weeks doing a lot of data gathering, math and programming/scripting to come up with some sort of proof as to what gear set(s) are BiS for SMN and why. This thread on the SE forums shows some work done modeling the damage formula around numerous sets of in-game data. (not parses)
From there, I did some work to verify the formula (I did, about 30 times over with varying skills and gearsets at level 50), and documented my findings in this thread, also on the SE forums.
In the process of this validating of the math, it became quickly evident that the actual stat priority was: WD > INT > DTR > CRT > SS

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Originally Posted by Ceveth

I'm fairly certain Torin's own simulations lead to the fact that Determination is indeed better than equal amounts of Critical Hit Rating as a secondary stat.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...e_simulations/

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Central flaw of the simulation he put forward that 'prove' DTR > CRT.
- As he himself admits they are 'practically equal'. At the amount of damage he 'simulated' the few hundred damage difference between any of the 3 sets is not statistically significant. Nothing about his test was in any way conclusive in any of the directions he pointed to, especially since he 'simulated' it? The 'materials and methods' section of his paper requires a lot more information + providing the means for other interested parties to duplicate his findings. The baseline for statistical significance at an academic level is typically 1%-5%. Seeing as how he himself acknowledges all sets are within 0.5% of each other, his results don't really show anything that we can make definite conclusions about.

More Problems I see with his test
- All of the gear sets he tested rest on the assumption that 100% accuracy for Garuda is equal to maximized damage. He needs to prove this. If you're at 98% accuracy but you're doing 3% more damage per action then you are actually doing more damage than being at 100% accuracy with lower damage per hit. And since the difference between accuracy #s at the gear he's talking about vs gear with crit is at most 1-2 missed hits for the entire fight he needs examine other gear sets with less accuracy but more determination, crit, etc. Because don't forget you're already at a higher accuracy % than Garuda is and that crit/determination value applies to more than just your Garuda's auto attack.

- He's not counting food which again since this whole test is based around Turn 5 BiS he should taking account of since that is one of the few situations in game where you 100% should be using food and that changes the gear sets around significantly to hit his '448' number. If he is using food in the simulation he needs to actually tell us what food it is, because again the point of these kinds of tests outside of XIV is that other researchers can replicate it to verify your findings.

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Originally Posted by loldrg

SMN can crit the following every 3 seconds: Bio II, Miasma, Bio, Shadowflare, (this is already a higher # of things that can crit than BRD's 2 DoTs + Flaming Arrow every 30sec), Ruin I/II, Pet attack, Auto Attack, and Miasma II if its Contagioned. That's 5 attacks that you should have up 100% of the time and 2 more (Miasma II and Auto attacks) that get used situationally. So that's 5-7 attacks that all can crit independent of eachother. And that's not even counting the spell speed trait when your pet crits or Fester/ED criting. SMN is a crit based job through simple probability.

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Not counting your auto-attack, that's approximately 116 chances to crit. Windbite, Venomous Bite, Flame Arrow, all our OGCD abilities, our GCD abilities, and our auto-attack add up to somewhere around 110 for BRD, depending on RoB procs. What's your argument, again?

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Not counting your auto-attack, that's approximately 116 chances to crit. Windbite, Venomous Bite, Flame Arrow, all our OGCD abilities, our GCD abilities, and our auto-attack add up to somewhere around 110 for BRD, depending on RoB procs. What's your argument, again?

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Torin stated he considers Bard to be a crit based class and SMN not to be. My argument is that if SMN has more actions that can crit independently of each other every GCD / 3 seconds then Summoner should also be considered a crit based class. The more things that can independently crit per GCD, the more importance crit should logically have to you.

Last time I checked 116 > 110 (assuming your #s are correct? What is the time period you are even measuring?) which means that SMN has more actions that crit, which means that if BRD is a CRIT based class, SMN should be considered to be one too.

Just as an aside, you should also count auto attacks. SMN(and SCH) have drastically higher STR(70 STR on my character) than other mage jobs (BLM/WHM). You can be in melee auto attack range for every 'endgame' fight in game with the exception of T2 ADS (because of rot passing), parts of Garuda Ex, and nail phases on Ifrit Ex, and post snake phase in Turn 5. You can definitely melee the nails on Ifrit if you're suicidal, during sisters phases in Garuda Extreme if you're confident in your Wicked Wheel dodging skills, but that's just a tangent to this aside. The point is is that Ruin II + book auto attacks are a net DPS gain equivalent to another dot tick over using Ruin I exclusively and any MP issues you might have doing this resolved themselves in 2.1 once we lost Thunder. So technically the 116 vs 110 # should be even larger because you can get in an auto attack every GCD where you aren't reapplying dots.

What T0rin meant is that SMN has no other benefit from crits besides more dmg, which is the case for all DPS classes we have, no matter how often you attack. In BRD's case more crit means more Blood Letter, there for crit class.

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Originally Posted by loldrg

Crit is Summoner's #1 most important secondary stat..... SMN is more of a crit class than any job in the game besides Scholar.....

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T0rin is backing his words up with data he has collected, if your so convinced he's wrong, where is yours? :D

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

What T0rin meant is that SMN has no other benefit from crits besides more dmg, which is the case for all DPS classes we have, no matter how often you attack. In BRD's case more crit means more Blood Letter, there for crit class.

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We have a 20% chance of extra spell speed every time our pet crits which is based off our own crit rate. Granted spell speed is the lowest priority secondary stat for SMN but that still ends up being a DPS gain, however marginal it may be.

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Originally Posted by scarebearz

T0rin is backing his words up with data he has collected, if your so convinced he's wrong, where is yours? :D

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A) I already explained why his data is inconclusive something he himself acknowledges the data was before making his much more drastic conclusions (which is oddly common for scientific papers).

B) Until his data can be replicated externally by other people there's no way it can even be argued to be valid.

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Originally Posted by loldrg

Last time I checked 116 > 110 (assuming your #s are correct? What is the time period you are even measuring?) which means that SMN has more actions that crit, which means that if BRD is a CRIT based class, SMN should be considered to be one too.

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I was going over a 1 minute duration. I was on the way out the door so I didn't estimate how many AA SMN would get, and may have slightly over-estimated BRD's OGCD number. I'll edit the post in a moment with the numbers I used. In the mean time, I'll explain why BRD is currently listed as the only "crit class." It's because we're currently the only class where a major source of our damage just disappears if we aren't getting any crits. The extra potency that a SMN gets from crit pales in comparison to what BRD gets due to River of Blood.

Edit: Here are the numbers I was using.

SMN:
Dot ticks - 20x4=80 (Bio 2, Miasma, Bio, Shadow Flare)
Pet AA - 19 (Contagion takes one spot)
Spell casts - 17 (2 Bio 2 casts, 2 Shadow Flare casts, and 3 Bio casts that can't crit, subtracted from 24)
Forgot to include Fester - 3
Also forgot AA - 15 (3.2 delay on Allagan book makes 19, minus time spent casting Bio 2 x2, Miasma x2, and Shadow Flare x1.)
Total: 80+19+17+3=119, 134 with AA

BRD:
Dot ticks - 20x2=40 (Windbite and Venomous Bite)
Flaming Arrow - 10
GCD attacks - 24
OGCD attacks - 15 (8 guaranteed from Bloodletter, Repelling Shot, and Blunt Arrow. 7 RoB procs over 1 minute is easily doable with normal RNG.)
AA - 25 (3.2 delay on Allag bow makes 19, plus about 6 from Barrage.)
Total: 40+10+24+15+25=114

The difference, here, is that 7 of those attacks (1,050 potency worth) would never have happened without crit. It would take SMN a hell of a lot of crit to get enough spell speed buff uptime to get 7 more attacks a minute.

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Originally Posted by Pwnznewbz

Since posting this, I have tried an ACN build with i86 gear (best I could manage in 1 week) that includes Allagan grimoire of casting. The dps is at least 15% less. Your ruins alone are doing 100-120 less per hit. The loss of 20 int is a bit hit. I don't mind the idea of trying ACN in DF groups, or even friendly instance/raids but don't come into the thread with completely false information. You do it because it's fun, not because it is better... that's okay, but acknowledge facts and don't push your bad logic on the community.

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I really took a double check at the Ruin bit, do you mean overall parse data for them when averaged out over time, or that the Ruins literally hit for that much less damage when you use them?