DPS Rankings

I was wondering how fast do DRGs do WP speed runs, and what set up do you normally use. Since Doomspike eats so much TP, I would imagine that the DRG will be fairly TP starved. And since most groups prioritize BLMs in WP Speed Runs due to their AOE DPS, they can't take a BRD for TP song (since the 2nd DPS is DRG)

And what do you guys think is the most effective WP Speed run setup.

I normally prefer PLD, BLM, BRD, WHM

PLD BLM BLM WHM/SCH (doesn't matter tbh). BRD is not "needed" for WP like you said in the OP.

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Envoyé par EasymodeX

Low positioning demands due to mechanics continuing to function at all positions.

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I won't agree with this. Monk difficulty might be overrated but the positional requirements aren't low.
All attacks have a positional requirement even if it functions without it.
You should be doing all positions and at the highest level doing a standard rotation which includes Bootshine.

I'm not saying it's super hard to stay at a flank most of the time, but you've got a set place to be and you need to learn to stick to it like white on rice as much as you can.
And you've got to do that for every attack outside of dots and oGCD.

Every time you missed, you failed.
Every time you didn't Bootshine cause you couldn't predict it well enough, you could have been better.
To me, those are still position demands. Maybe we're defining it differently.
In that regard, there are literally more 'you have to be here' things for a monk.

NOTE:
I play on a BLM as well and the "position demands" are a lot.
Technically, you're only allowed to move on procs to be optimal.
However, the BLM is balanced around some movement interrupting you as monks are balanced around GL3 dropping occasionally.
A good BLM will move only during a proc (for a better position) or when they absolutely must.

Still, I put position demands in quotations because I think there's a difference between that and mobility.
I don't see the reason for putting them them as the same thing except to use it as a common denominator for all the classes, which is still misleading.

Position demands, to me at least, would mean you've got a predefined location.
Mobility would mean it's hard to move.

For my monk, my movements are predefined. I've got to be in a certain place at a certain time.
I would say its the class with the most positional demands cause most of their tooltips literally ask you to be somewhere.
My mobility isn't horrible though. I can sidestep a Titan plume without losing damage.

My BLM can't do that without losing damage, but I've got a lot more choice where to stand.
Fight to fight, there may be position demands that I work out with my raid but as a class I pretty much have none.

Might be semantics but your summary is misleading. Even for a summary.

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Envoyé par ZodiacSoldier

I was wondering how fast do DRGs do WP speed runs,

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DRGs do WP speed runs fine. A WP speed run virtually always needs a BLM though for the silence and AOE damage output. There are ways around this but it makes the run slightly more complex (e.g. using a Summoner for AOE bind instead, or using a WHM Holy for stun to lockout). However, if you can accept ~13-15m as a speed run, then a almost any DPS combination can work.

I've heard that a DRG + BLM can do it in 9 or 10m. Personally my group's only gone down to 12s or so, but we may try something different to drop it to 10. It's somewhat difficult doing certain CC combinations with a Warrior. No Hallowed Ground and needs to heal themselves via attacking.

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Since Doomspike eats so much TP, I would imagine that the DRG will be fairly TP starved.

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You need to manage it and become familiar with which pulls require a full TP dump and which don't. Generally speaking you will end up blowing all cooldowns + Invig on the first pull. In WP the DRG's main cooldowns are BFB, DFD, and Invigorate. Do not DFD or Invig on bosses. BFB can be used on bosses early but not late (so it's up for the trash after).

Every Invigorate cooldown is a "big" pull. Every DFD is reserved for a big pull. BFB can fluctuate.

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And since most groups prioritize BLMs in WP Speed Runs due to their AOE DPS, they can't take a BRD for TP song (since the 2nd DPS is DRG)

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Luckily DRGs do more AOE DPS than a Bard. A BLM actually takes a few seconds to get off their DPS, so you can split aggro with them if you're quick.

The hardest part of doing WP without a BRD is the Paladin's mana pool if you are using a Paladin. They have to adapt with specific pull methods to save flashes for AOE threat. It helps a lot if they have a +1.

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Envoyé par Allyrion

I'm not saying it's super hard to stay at a flank most of the time, but you've got a set place to be and you need to learn to stick to it like white on rice as much as you can.

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Uh huh. That's the exact point: it's not super hard to sit your ass on the boss's flank for the majority of the fight and strafe their rear for a Bootshine every once in while.

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In that regard, there are literally more 'you have to be here' things for a monk.

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There are more positional checks for a Monk, but the penalty for poor positioning is much less. You do not actually "have to be here". You "should be here". "Have to" implies a more significant penalty -- Monks do not have this. Your perspective is skewed.

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Position demands, to me at least, would mean you've got a predefined location.
Mobility would mean it's hard to move.

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Um. My predefined location for a BLM is to (a) not be standing in the boss mechanic and (b) standing where they were standing a moment ago.

My predefined location for a MNK is to (a) not be standing in the boss mechanic but (b) also at the flank.

A BLM loses significantly more DPS in general for dealing with boss mechanics than a MNK. Hence, steeper penalties, even if a MNK's position is checked more frequently.

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Might be semantics but your summary is misleading.

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Or your perspective is skewed. I don't perceive any meaningful difference between "positioning" and "mobility". Mobility is dynamic positioning -- a subset of the concept of positioning.

They both center on the player being in the correct X,Y coordinate at the correct time. Melee in general have a malus re: mechanics, but melee also get a significant bonus for not having hardcasts.


At the end of the day this discussion is subjective. Some players have a harder time with positioning. Some players have a harder time with action sequence. I think my summary was objective enough between classes that players could make their own judgement.

Look at it this way:

If you run to the boss's side and then take your hands off of WASD for the rest of the fight, you'll still land 90% of your positional attacks. You won't lose GL. You'll get every Twin Snakes buff. You'll get every DK debuff. You'll get every DOT.

Zzzzz. So much for demanding positioning.

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Envoyé par ZodiacSoldier

My group has me, PLD and only 1 BRD for interrupts. Sadly we let HV go off occassionally, usually when I have to dodge an AoE and can't run back in time or if the BRD is passing Rot / dodging lasers (she plays on PS3)

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3 groups every week for us using PLD/BRD for interrupts. Yeah, HV is missed sometimes, but that's just when someone messes up. You know if an AoE is cast you can run back in instantly even while animation is still going off, right? The AE's like repelling cannon and that star-shaped one don't make you run far, so literally it's 1-2 steps to get back in range. Not personally familiar with PS3 controls, but that sounds like an excuse. Up to your group whether you want to put up with it or not.

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Envoyé par EasymodeX

There are more positional checks for a Monk, but the penalty for poor positioning is much less. You do not actually "have to be here". You "should be here". "Have to" implies a more significant penalty -- Monks do not have this. Your perspective is skewed.

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Positional checks are exactly what I mean.
The penalty doesn't matter because you should never be failing anyway.
There's more opportunity for monks to fail because there are simply more checks.

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Envoyé par EasymodeX

Um. My predefined location for a BLM is to (a) not be standing in the boss mechanic and (b) standing where they were standing a moment ago.

My predefined location for a MNK is to (a) not be standing in the boss mechanic but (b) also at the flank.

A BLM loses significantly more DPS in general for dealing with boss mechanics than a MNK. Hence, steeper penalties, even if a MNK's position is checked more frequently.

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That's not a pre-defined location. You can list out the X,Y coordinate for a monk during a fight. You can't for a BLM.
Listing out movement conditions is not the same as listing out where you need to be.

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Envoyé par EasymodeX

At the end of the day this discussion is subjective. Some players have a harder time with positioning. Some players have a harder time with action sequence. I think my summary was objective enough between classes that players could make their own judgement.

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Right. I said the positioning was easy enough. Who's talking about difficulty?
The positions are demanded though.
To think of a bonus to damage when you're a damage class as anything less than a demand is wrong.

Most of the time, it is quite easy as you say.
But bosses do turn and move sometimes. If you aren't making millisecond decisions on how to adapt your rotation depending on what part you're on and which position is now closest while considering their turning, you're doing it wrong.

All that said, it's still not very hard.
However again, difficulty doesn't matter. The position demands are there whether it's easy to keep them or not.

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Or your perspective is skewed. I don't perceive any meaningful difference between "positioning" and "mobility". Mobility is dynamic positioning -- a subset of the concept of positioning.

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"Your perspective is skewed" is really a cheap argument and should not be used in any logical debate. Perspective, by its nature, is subjective and there HAS to be skewed in some sense. There is no way you can tell yours is any less and therefore it's irrelevant.

Regardless, I can't imagine how you can't see the difference.
Positional demands ask you to be in a certain place at a certain time.
Mobility is only about being able to move. It doesn't matter where you came from or where you went to. Only if there was a penalty for the movement itself.

Moving out of aoe and running from one add to another (particularly for melee) concerns mobility.
Basically having to be a certain place, which are only on mnk and drg abilities, are positional demands. They literally check where you are standing.

Both are nuanced enough not to be clumped together.
Monk positions(combo abilities) being more challenging is a whole different discussion from, say, monk gap closers or Fists of Winds.

Yes monk abilities can still work regardless of positioning, but it doesn't mean you should be ignoring it. All of our damage abilities except for DoTs require positioning to be effective. If you can't position correctly or the boss decides to turn it will shaft your MNK dps like a mofo. on top of the demand for proper positioning if you want to do competitive dps, mnk also has to worry about movement much more than ranged as well as dodging boss mechanics, and if you want to get real technical depending on if you know the fight well enough for certain scenarios like needing a silence from Arm of the destoryer (though usually monks aren't on silence duty) or rockbreaker for adds that can require some stance positioning as well.

If a monk just sits on flank all day, they're bad, and their dps will not be anywhere as high as it should be. a monk needs to change their positioning based on the ability they are currently doing in their rotation. some require flank (DK, twin, snap), some require back (bootshine, impulse drive), on top of that our AoE's like rockbreaker and howling fist also requires positioning. if the boss just sits there then fine, but they don't a lot of times bosses turn around to do some ability or target someone, if you used your ability and then during the animation the boss turns, it's going to hurt your potential dps by a lot, sometimes you're about to use your ability and then just before you do the boss will turn and then you have to react quickly within your gcd to move to the new position to use your ability, and then move back cause the boss will turn back to where it originally was. then to top if off you're melee, if there's any movement on the boss, good luck hitting it on the move with the server positional lag it's hard to get an ability connect but still possible, and then on top of that being positioned to the boss correctly while on the move. (also if you need to catch up to the boss too sometimes you cant even shoulder tackle because of the 'minimum distance' requirement which can be really annoying, but the thing i just discribed is assuming you're running along with the boss). oh yeah and if you screw it up and can't hit the boss on the move, say good bye to your greased lightning 3 stacks to shaft your dps even more. then you have AoE's you have to worry about as well which not only requires you to move but it can also effect your dps much more than ranged.

Monk is a high risk, high reward class. if you're good at handling it then you'll do good dps. however if you suck at it (and a lot of people do) then your dps will be down the drain, that's way you see a bunch of baddies making threads complaining that monks are 'too weak' it's because those people can't handle the unforgiving positioning requirements. yes you can use your abilities still from another position, but if you do it will hurt you a lot.

FYI Monks get rull mad when you say their shit is a joke.

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The penalty doesn't matter because you should never be failing anyway.

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Positional failures are pretty inevitable with the delay in mob direction/position in the FF14 engine -- unless you can literally predict the action of the boss at all points in the fight a second in advance.

If that's the case, then I have no idea why you have any comment about Monk positional attacks.

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That's not a pre-defined location. You can list out the X,Y coordinate for a monk during a fight. You can't for a BLM.

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If you're trying to get picky, I can list at least 2 general coordinates for the Monk in a fight, since there are 2 flanks. There is also generally a good variation of positioning within those flanks. So no, you can't list out the X,Y coordinate for a Monk during the fight.

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Listing out movement conditions is not the same as listing out where you need to be.

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Oh, but it is. You simply perceive space and fight execution differently than I do.

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The positions are demanded though.

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They are demanded with more frequently but less magnitude.

Zzz.

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To think of a bonus to damage when you're a damage class as anything less than a demand is wrong.

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You're so hard.

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But bosses do turn and move sometimes. If you aren't making millisecond decisions on how to adapt your rotation depending on what part you're on and which position is now closest while considering their turning, you're doing it wrong.

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Those decisions are harder and more penalizing for a BLM or DRG.

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"Your perspective is skewed" is really a cheap argument and should not be used in any logical debate. Perspective, by its nature, is subjective and there HAS to be skewed in some sense. There is no way you can tell yours is any less and therefore it's irrelevant.

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? You said I was wrong. I say you are wrong. Hence I am completing the circle of your "cheap argument".

I was making a statement that your perspective is skewed from mine. Hence we have differing subjective views on the application of 'mobility' and 'positioning'.

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Mobility is only about being able to move. It doesn't matter where you came from or where you went to. Only if there was a penalty for the movement itself.

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Positioning is your spot. Mobility is the derivative or delta in your spot. As I said previously, mobility is dynamic positioning. Mobility is a subset of positioning -- e.g. changing your position.

Hence, both concepts are encapsulated by the term "positioning". You have a differing opinion where mobility is completely discrete from positioning. That seems to be half of your entire argument with my post -- your inability to accept another person's terminology.

Personally, IDGAF about your definition. I can argue the content of the argument without getting into needless semantics that you seem to be stuck on.

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Basically having to be a certain place, which are only on mnk and drg abilities, are positional demands. They literally check where you are standing.

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Standing in a laser to finish casting Fire literally checks where you are standing. Standing in line with other rDPS causing line attacks to impact multiple players checks where you are standing. Are you trying to cause your raid to lose DPS?

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Monk positions(combo abilities) being less challenging is a whole different discussion from, say, monk gap closers or Fists of Winds.

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Fixed.

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If a monk just sits on flank all day, they're bad, and their dps will not be anywhere as high as it should be.

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Actually, a Monk who sits on the flank all day will net about 90-95% of the DPS of a Monk who doesn't suck. "Anywhere near as high" is a pretty extreme statement.

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some require back (bootshine, impulse drive),

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Impulse Drive is bad in general and only effective for very limited situations.

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on top of that our AoE's like rockbreaker and howling fist also requires positioning.

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Trivial. Blizzard 2 requires positioning. Doom spike and Dragonfire Dive require positioning. Hell, Flaming Arrow requires "positioning". Dis gaem haz pozishuning.

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it's going to hurt your potential dps by a lot,

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A lot. Right.

Lol.

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and then move back cause the boss will turn back to where it originally was. then to top if off you're melee, if there's any movement on the boss, good luck hitting it on the move with the server positional lag it's hard to get an ability connect but still possible, and then on top of that being positioned to the boss correctly while on the move.

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Trivial. Are you keyboard turning or on a PS3 pad? If so, please exit this discussion.

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oh yeah and if you screw it up and can't hit the boss on the move, say good bye to your greased lightning 3 stacks to shaft your dps even more. then you have AoE's you have to worry about as well which not only requires you to move but it can also effect your dps much more than ranged.

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The fact that you are complaining about this at all means you are bad. Srs. Especially as a Monk who can just hit Fist of the Winds if you have problems.

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Monk is a high risk, high reward class.

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Not really.

I spend literally half my mental attention playing my Monk compared to my Dragoon.

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it's because those people can't handle the unforgiving positioning requirements.

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The positioning requirements are extremely forgiving. To be honest, Twin Snakes should not apply the damage buff if your position is wrong. DK should not apply the blunt resist debuff if your position is wrong.

Make those changes and I'll agree that Monks have "meaningful" positioning demands.

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If a monk just sits on flank all day, they're bad, and their dps will not be anywhere as high as it should be.

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Actually, a Monk who sits on the flank all day will net about 90-95% of the DPS of a Monk who doesn't suck. "Anywhere near as high" is a pretty extreme statement.

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some require back (bootshine, impulse drive),

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Impulse Drive is bad in general and only effective for very limited situations.

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on top of that our AoE's like rockbreaker and howling fist also requires positioning.

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Trivial. Blizzard 2 requires positioning. Doom spike and Dragonfire Dive require positioning. Hell, Flaming Arrow requires "positioning". This gaem iz h4rd.

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it's going to hurt your potential dps by a lot,

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A lot. Right.

Lol.

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and then move back cause the boss will turn back to where it originally was. then to top if off you're melee, if there's any movement on the boss, good luck hitting it on the move with the server positional lag it's hard to get an ability connect but still possible, and then on top of that being positioned to the boss correctly while on the move.

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Trivial. Are you keyboard turning or on a PS3 pad? If so, please exit this discussion.

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oh yeah and if you screw it up and can't hit the boss on the move, say good bye to your greased lightning 3 stacks to shaft your dps even more. then you have AoE's you have to worry about as well which not only requires you to move but it can also effect your dps much more than ranged.

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The fact that you are complaining about this at all means you are bad. Srs. Especially as a Monk who can just hit the movespeed passive if you have problems.

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Monk is a high risk, high reward class.

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Not really.

I spend literally half my mental attention playing my Monk compared to my Dragoon.

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it's because those people can't handle the unforgiving positioning requirements.

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The positioning requirements are extremely forgiving. To be honest, Twin Snakes should not apply the damage buff if your position is wrong. DK should not apply the blunt resist debuff if your position is wrong.

Make those changes and I'll agree that Monks have "meaningful" positioning demands.

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Envoyé par Ayvar

FYI Monks get rull mad when you say their shit is a joke.

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Evidently!

Maybe I should be like 'OMG MONK NEEDS TO POSITIONING ALL THE TIME'. It took me all of 2 AKs and a sprint through Ifrit and Garuda to figure out how to turn off my brain and sleepwalk the attack cycle. That's a steep learning curve!

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Envoyé par RhazeCain

3 groups every week for us using PLD/BRD for interrupts. Yeah, HV is missed sometimes, but that's just when someone messes up. You know if an AoE is cast you can run back in instantly even while animation is still going off, right? The AE's like repelling cannon and that star-shaped one don't make you run far, so literally it's 1-2 steps to get back in range. Not personally familiar with PS3 controls, but that sounds like an excuse. Up to your group whether you want to put up with it or not.

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Yea i know normally I wont miss the interrupt after dodging an AOE, only happens when the boss is on the other tank and we run in opposite direction, doesn't happen too often like I said, maybe only once every ten runs. Also there were a few times where I miss then silence if ADS uses HV when i'm in the middle of using "Rage of Halone", I spam my silence hoping it will go off, but sadly its late sometimes.