Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

Sword Oath + Rampart + Bulwark is the same mitigation as Shield Oath + Bulwark.
Do you really think that if a tank dies pulling four mobs in tank stance with Bulwark up, it's the tank's fault?

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Except for the part where Shield Oath lasts much longer than 20 seconds. Also, mobs in Dusk Vigil hit much harder than average. Same with any other leveling dungeon. It's easier to do a mass pull in a level 50/60 dungeon than a leveling dungeon.

So yes, if a tank decides to pull 4 mobs in a leveling dungeon where they have about 10k HP and each mob can hit for upwards of 800 damage per tick? In tank stance, no less? If they die, that's on them.

Yesterday evening I got into Susano Normal with my Trial roulette together with a friend. We were stuck with two people who very clearly had no idea what to do: A BLM and one of our healers.

The BLM kept running away with the stack marker, and was shouting to the healers whenever he got one-shot at a result. He also never used his Ley Lines, and exclusively used Ice spells.

The healer died six times due to AoE effects. A friend of his said it was because he was laggy. I find it hard to believe that lag is the cause of him running out of the safe line between the tidal waves and into the lightning AoEs.

Fortunately we still ended up clearing on our second try, but we needed the second healer to LB3 and still only barely made it. I hope he got many commendations.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

Except for the part where Shield Oath lasts much longer than 20 seconds. Also, mobs in Dusk Vigil hit much harder than average. Same with any other leveling dungeon. It's easier to do a mass pull in a level 50/60 dungeon than a leveling dungeon.

So yes, if a tank decides to pull 4 mobs in a leveling dungeon where they have about 10k HP and each mob can hit for upwards of 800 damage per tick? In tank stance, no less? If they die, that's on them.

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If a tank wants to tank outside tank stance, they take it upon themselves to rotate cooldowns or swap back into tank stance to ensure their mitigation doesn't fail. Having sufficient mitigation is the tank's responsibility. How that mitigation is provided, be it through the tank stance or through defensive cooldowns, is the tank's choice to make. A tank may choose to take on the extra work of managing their mitigation actively in return for more DPS. Personally I find that willingness to put in extra effort praiseworthy.

Also, the first three mobs of Dusk Vigil are linked so you get them together whether you want to or not. Considering the difficulty of levelling dungeons is pitched such that a single group (i.e. three mobs) may be tanked in tank stance but with no defensive cooldowns, I would argue that (the equivalent of) tank stance + Bulwark is sufficient mitigation for four mobs.

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Originally Posted by Kakiko

I've only had one 'negative' experience doing a Duty Finder with my boyfriend a couple of weeks ago wherein our WHM decided to try to tank Copperbell Mines by herself, while her and her friend smack-talked my bf's lower level and gear (he tanks, I'm BLM). I ended up getting booted out for telling her that it'd be nice if she acted like our healer and healed people (she wasn't). Bf didn't get booted but they continued their snide comments and let him die a few times.

Other than that one incident though, it's been a lot of fun so far :)

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Did your boyfriend leave? He didn't get booted because he was a tank but
they unjustly kicked you, let him die, disrupt gameplay and abused the Kick system so I hope you reported them.
They can also tell your still a newbie if you had the leaf!
It's so sad, people in this game are terrible sometimes for no reason.
I am sorry that happened.

I remember when I got shat on the Aether thing in HW.
(Can't recall name...It was with the Chimera in a room and AST were super bad it was a 60 dungeon?...So I think it was literally 3.0 endgame dungeon.)
had the DRK scream at me and stuff because I couldn't heal him and I tried my best...He actually was
so bitter to me the entire run that admittedly, I was really sad and he threatened to kick me because I was the last
to respawn and stuff...So then they kicked me and I reported the tank, then 20 mins later or less, a GM responded via tell.
I told them what happened and they were incredibly kind and helpful and made me feel a lot better.
I liked how they used smilies to add personality to them. :eek: It didn't feel like they were a drone.
Plus s/he was telling me something really cool...cool enough that I cannot remember xD! But like quick/small chat.

So with that story, sometimes you will get a GM response. I actually gotten 2 (can't remember the other reason.)
in less then 20 minutes from player reports. It sure does make you feel better and the GM's care. :eek:
..Unlike their E-mail support but that's another story lmao.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

Had an archer in Tam-Tara normal yesterday. He was constantly running all over the place while attacking. (No, he wasn't masterfully avoiding AoEs.). It was dizzying and very annoying. I mean, he. Just. Kept. Moving! All the time! When asked about it, he answered that he was playing on PS4. Now I'm no expert, but I main BRD and I play on PS4 too. I never ever move around like a headless chicken all the time. And this is not because Wanderer's Minuet back in Heavensward tamed me. It's just unnecessary to run around like he did. And when advised to try not moving too much when there was no need to, he asked if this affected his DPS. Ehhh, it's not like running around increased his DPS either, so why not just spare everyone the agony of watching a moving object that just can't stand still? I reeeeally would've enjoyed watching him play BRD in 3.x :p

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When I play BRD, if I'm really bored - either due to super easy dungeon, or just doing the roulettes because I want that glorious daily EXP bonus - I tend to run around and "dance" using my skills. Jumping onto/off ledges as the skill animations are going off, or just circling the boss/mobs. Sometimes, it's just boredom. I have never had anyone complain about me doing something like that before though....and if I got Tam-Tara, I can guarantee you I would have been doing the same...especially with how many pillars/ledges/dais there are that you can jump on and off of.

I just had an... interesting experience.

Queued into Trial roulette and got Nidhogg, to where the Paladin says they used a jump potion but had previously tanked on Dark Knight. Guess who proceeds to have the least trouble despite no other jump potion users. I was fully preparing to take over tanking but she had it covered just fine. Everyone else though... not to much. Why is it people still don't know what a stack marker is? The Ninja outright avoided stacking and dropped dead while the Black Mage later moved out of it too fast. Wound up clearing with myself, the other tank and one DPS alive.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Why is it people still don't know what a stack marker is?

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Sometimes I wonder if they are just a troll out to prolong runs of things...I can understand a new person not being familiar with it especially if they didn't do any of the Alexander raids(don't really recall any story dungeons that introduced that before Nidhogg trial). But when it's a "Mentor" that doesn't do it...yeah I can guarantee that person is a troll.

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Originally Posted by Singularity

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Except that in this case, the tank clearly failed to provide that mitigation and refused to put on Shield Oath even after their cooldowns ran out. I would hardly call that kind of performance praiseworthy.

In Dusk Vigil, we get a group of 3 mobs that are meant to be killed in one group, and then a single behemoth-type monster that has large AoEs, that is also meant to be killed solo. That makes it the equivalent of one full group, which means that the tank was pulling 2 full groups in DPS stance, all the while failing to manage their mitigation properly.

And as a last note: This is a leveling dungeon, not a Savage world-first progression group. Why are you so concerned with how much DPS a tank does in a random DF party?

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

Except that in this case, the tank clearly failed to provide that mitigation and refused to put on Shield Oath even after their cooldowns ran out. I would hardly call that kind of performance praiseworthy.

In Dusk Vigil, we get a group of 3 mobs that are meant to be killed in one group, and then a single behemoth-type monster that has large AoEs, that is also meant to be killed solo. That makes it the equivalent of one full group, which means that the tank was pulling 2 full groups in DPS stance, all the while failing to manage their mitigation properly.

And as a last note: This is a leveling dungeon, not a Savage world-first progression group. Why are you so concerned with how much DPS a tank does in a random DF party?

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I agree, if indeed the tank did not sufficiently mitigate damage later in the dungeon, then that is their own fault, but I am talking about the specific example of pulling the first four mobs of Dusk Vigil in Sword Oath with Rampart and Bulwark.

The mylodon does not in fact hit anywhere close to three times as hard as the smaller mobs, not least because it spends so much time casting Slowball, during which time it does no damage at all.

I'm not personally concerned with tank DPS in a levelling dungeon - I don't complain when I get a tank that just does the basics, but if someone is putting in extra effort to contribute to the party, then of course I'll be grateful for it.

So last night I had to work late and wanted to cram in all my roulettes before going to sleep. Trials roulette was the last one on my list and it was almost 2 AM before I got to it. But I was determined to get it done. So I was crossing my fingers hoping I wouldn't end up in Royal Menagerie.

But guess what I got? Yep, you guessed it, Royal Menagerie.

Fortunately, we only had one new person, one of the tanks.

We ended up one shotting it and only ended up with a small handful of deaths the entire run. Even the new tank only died once I think.

I was so happy. I wanted to commend everyone. So to that group, thank you for such a flawless run.

Finishing up my RDM I was spamming Doma Castle. Easily my favorite dungeon of the expac. Love the music and boss. Anyway, the tank was a DRK and the healer was an AST. The first DPS went AFK for a minute before leaving. We pressed on and a new DPS joined before the first boss. It was smooth until right before the last boss and the second DPS started reddotting. We went for it and three manned the boss. It was a lot of fun. I didn't know his bey blades had all those patterns. The farthest he's gotten before was the four in the middle before he dies. I wish I could've commed the AST and DRK for that.

I want to give a shout out to the group I had in Xelphatol. My net kept crapping out, but they never kicked me. Even when I offered to leave, they told me to stick around since the run was still going quick and smooth. You guys were the best!

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Originally Posted by Avatre

When I play BRD, if I'm really bored - either due to super easy dungeon, or just doing the roulettes because I want that glorious daily EXP bonus - I tend to run around and "dance" using my skills. Jumping onto/off ledges as the skill animations are going off, or just circling the boss/mobs. Sometimes, it's just boredom. I have never had anyone complain about me doing something like that before though....and if I got Tam-Tara, I can guarantee you I would have been doing the same...especially with how many pillars/ledges/dais there are that you can jump on and off of.

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Different people are annoyed by different things, I guess. But to be fair, the tank was also annoyed by the constant moving. There was this one time when the healer complained about the NIN in our group always sprinting (most of the time slightly ahead of the tank). I was the tank and didn't think much of it, but the healer was annoyed by it. And I can assure you the archer in question wasn't bored. After all, he'd have said that instead of saying he was on PS4 as a reason.

Yesterday I attempted Keeper of the Lake as WHM in levelling roulette, I have healed this easily plenty of times on both AST and WHM and didn't assume there would be a problem.

WAR and BRD are both new to the dungeon and its nice to help people :). DRG is well geared so the dungeon should go smoothly.....but it doesn't.

WAR is, for lack of a better word, an idiot. He runs and mobs all the adds on himself but only has enmity for 1 enemy. No, I'm not kidding and I don't even know how someone plays WAR this way. Basically it became a heal spam fest and had it not been for the BRD and DRG I would have been KO'd several times.

We ask WAR what he is doing and get no response. As the BRD is new and waited 30+ for the queue I don't want to leave so we do our best and get to the point just before the 2nd boss. When WAR, given several chances, still chooses not to play his role properly we kick him (I don't like vote kick but sometimes needs must).

We wait 10mins for a new tank (FC tank was offline) but complete dungeon easily when a new one joins.

To that BRD, PLD and DRG - Thank you for being nice, friendly players with a sense of humour :) and BRD, if you read this, I'm glad you got your clear - hope to see you again ^^

This is not about a DF, but of the Party Finder looking to farm Susano Ex (also known as Susie or Susan).

I wanted to say 'thank you' to the leader of the group that I joined, greeted me as I greeted everyone and then proceeded to kick me and blacklisted me without any reason. I admit, I got pretty tense and confused as why someone would open a party just to kick anyone at the first chance without offering any explanation. But thanks to that I could join another team, and an awesome one at that with fast, clean clears. So, again, thank you. Because of your attitude I feel like I have dogded a bullet.

Shoutout to the BRD, RDM and AST I ran Sohm Al normal with on my DRK in levelling roulette. It's nice to have some friendly banter while knocking content out. Wish more people would be open to chatting, even if it's just a little bit.

Trials Roulette. Instapop as DPS... ok, this is weird. Bismarck HM. Argh, what a run... what a run...

Samurai is new to the fight. He's the only melee. First phase takes 2 rounds of Bismarck smacking the platform, of which neither of them are shielded. Huge island damage taken. I almost jump on too soon the second time, and had the jump been a nanosecond earlier, I would have fallen off. Great start...
Second phase goes mostly OK. Nothing special to report here.
Third phase... argh what a mess up on my part. So, we have LB3 the first time Bismarck is pulled in. Melee is told to use LB. They don't. I see Bismarck shuddering and think I can pull it off. I cast LB3. Just as the cast finishes, the corona becomes untargetable and I wasted LB. The desire to punch the monitor was strong. I apologised profusely afterwards, and after someone was told the melee wasn't going to use it, he was like "Don't worry, mistakes happen."

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Originally Posted by New_Game_Plus

I really hope you reported them.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

Did your boyfriend leave? He didn't get booted because he was a tank but
they unjustly kicked you, let him die, disrupt gameplay and abused the Kick system so I hope you reported them.

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At the time I didn't know you could report people so I just waited where my bf and I had been until he was done. He tried to get out of the dungeon himself; he asked them to kick him, he even logged out but when he logged back in it was right into the dungeon with them. He's not a new player, he restarted as a new class so he looked, at the time, only to be like level 15 or something.

I am appreciative of both responses. :) If that ever happens again, though, or anything like it, now I know that they can be reported. That said, I've probably run the dungeons I have about 50 times and that was literally my only negative experience. Everyone else has been super amazing.
:)

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Why is it people still don't know what a stack marker is?

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So, Omega 4 Normal. After dodging an attack leading to one of our healers being on the same side of the arena as most of the rest of us and the other healer being on the opposite side, stack up holy targets the closer healer. We try to stack with him when he runs off. Directly towards the further healer. Who he stacks on top of. Just as the attack finishes charging. So, a stacking mechanic divided between just two players, both healers. Yeah, that's... Not optimal.

Kugane Castle as BLM. We're in the middle of a pull, my Umbral Ice is ticking down to 0, and I get ready to hit Transpose again...

My phone rings. Now, at this point, I have a lot of things to focus on. I'm listening to music, so I need to remove an earbud, while moving my character, while watching the tank to see where they stop with the pull, and make sure they've established aggro so I can start blasting.

Unwisely, I used my left hand - the hand I use to, you know, hit my Transpose hotkey - to rip out the earbud, pick up my phone, and answer it. It takes all of 3 seconds for me to realise this is some bullshit telesurvey or whatever, hang up, return my attention fully to the game, aaaaand I've lost Umbral Ice, Enochian, and all my Umbral Hearts.

TL;DR: Telemarketers can go die in a fire and I would gladly provide the gasoline.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

Kugane Castle as BLM. We're in the middle of a pull, my Umbral Ice is ticking down to 0, and I get ready to hit Transpose again...

My phone rings. Now, at this point, I have a lot of things to focus on. I'm listening to music, so I need to remove an earbud, while moving my character, while watching the tank to see where they stop with the pull, and make sure they've established aggro so I can start blasting.

Unwisely, I used my left hand - the hand I use to, you know, hit my Transpose hotkey - to rip out the earbud, pick up my phone, and answer it. It takes all of 3 seconds for me to realise this is some bullshit telesurvey or whatever, hang up, return my attention fully to the game, aaaaand I've lost Umbral Ice, Enochian, and all my Umbral Hearts.

TL;DR: Telemarketers can go die in a fire and I would gladly provide the gasoline.

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Telemarketers should be considered domestic terrorism imo lol

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Originally Posted by Slirith

Telemarketers should be considered domestic terrorism imo lol

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I honestly don't understand why people answer the phone in duty. Unless it's a call from my mom, which I can put on speaker, there's not anything that can't wait for me to check a voicemail later. If they even leave one.

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I honestly don't understand why people answer the phone in duty. Unless it's a call from my mom, which I can put on speaker, there's not anything that can't wait for me to check a voicemail later. If they even leave one.

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Some people can get calls from work, and family emergencies can always happen. I think having to answer the phone is never a bad excuse for having to go AFK in the middle of a duty, so long as you don't end up taking too long.

Someone dies because he jumped immediately before Bismarck finishes being reeled in.
Every. Time.

Im at a point in the expansion where the only fun I get is from tanking, healing and/or DPSing speed runs in dungeons via DF. Fail or not.

For ex. As a WHM, as soon as the barrier drops and the PLD sprints, I know we are in for an exciting run (not waiting for Protect? Pssht. Swiftcast+Protect mid sprint. Solved) Especially when no words are spoken the entirety of the run but everyone knows what kind of run it is, adapts and acts accordingly.

Last stretch of dungeon, tank sprints pulling the whole room, last pack of mobs coming up, I see both DPS pop their CDs mid sprint, tank corals the mobs, pops Hollow Ground, CoS, I pop Thin Air+PoM and the fireworks start. THAT is beautiful when 4 complete DF strangers harmonize so well when no one is communicating. Duty completed. Flawless run. No one speaks. No "gg", no time for comms, no time for loot. Duty ends. Perfect. Get in and get out.

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Originally Posted by kupokage

not waiting for Protect?

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I recently had the reverse of that. Healer sprinted off casting protect, leaving me, the tank, standing at the entrance without it. O_o

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

I honestly don't understand why people answer the phone in duty.

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I'm sure it must be nice to live in a world where emergencies don't happen, but those of us who live in the real world do need to be contacted. Hospitals are kind enough to call you these days, if, say, you have a family member in there and their condition deteriorates or worse.

I just experienced the most interesting red tether of love from a DRG.

Omega 1.0 Normal. First time I see the tether, it is on the SCH. I did a double take, because it made no sense to see the tether on a book user, but I figured it must have been a misfire of a macro or a misclick. I was on my RDM, and later in the fight I dive straight in for my melee combo. Right as I finish and displace myself out, I get the red tether of love. Okay. I could maybe give them that, since I was stabbing with my sword, but still, I was only number 3 on the hate list. Well behind the SAM in the party. Then came tether number three. Any guesses? I burst out laughing when I saw it on the WHM. This DRG had managed to get both healers with their red tether of love. If they got the other RDM, then they would have hooked up with every caster in the party. Which actually didn't happen. Tether number four came out, and it landed on the main tank who was popping cooldowns in tank stance. At that point I was completely flabbergasted. I mean, really. Not once did that DRG tether the only other melee in the party. I felt sorry for that poor SAM who was just hammering the boss with solid dps.

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

I recently had the reverse of that. Healer sprinted off casting protect, leaving me, the tank, standing at the entrance without it. O_o

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I've done that in the past. Played tank all day, switched to whm for expert, right off at the start I sprinted, but I let you guess how it went after I reached the first pack of mobs :D

Another glorious Omega Savage 1 that ends in failure...seriously, at this point, no one should be wiping to mechanics that are easier to deal with than Susano's levin mechanic.

This is a PF, I'm an AST, and in the first 3 wipes, I notice that there is one particular DPS that is constantly going into my position after the ice forms. I could overcome that, but the WHM that is with us doesn't utilize Medica 2. Regardless, after the final wipe, one of the tanks leave, and people are trying to figure out what's going on. I mention that the DPS is going in my spot, and he says that he was moving based on the direction the boss was facing. I asked him what he meant, and his exact words were that the true north was the direction where the boss was facing. He also claimed that most of the groups in savage go by this as well. Now...I've personally never seen "most groups" doing this. In fact, I was specifically told when Omega Savage first dropped that it's better to stick with cardinal directions, and all of my clears have come from following that. It's easiest to remember for me because I generally don't like to move more than what is necessary.

Maybe most groups do act based on that. Maybe when the boss starts calling down his fireballs and is facing south, the whole party adjusts on that. I've never heard of such a thing, and to be perfectly honest, it seems unnecessary considering that the boss is just going to face the tank once that mechanic is done.

All I'm saying is that, I think that's extra work and it unnecessarily caused a lot of wipes.

Okay, I have one as well. Though it was more funny than a bad story.

Sat in queue for Weeping City of Mhach for over an hour as PLD, alt tabbed for most of it but it finally pops and I go in. Everyone says their hellos and all and we head off. Everything is going pretty smooth... until we get to Ozma. Now I am the tank of "B team" and after we all get to our platforms, the fight begins. Everything is going okay until 2 dps in my group (DRG and I think a MNK) get marked. I notice that they aren't moving and thus most of our group run away from the marks while those two die, still not moving. They get rezzed and the fight continues. We go to the next phase where we get pulled in to the island and we DPS down our monster though we're the last group to do so.

Someone comments on this in Alliance chat saying "B team sucks". I joke back that "B team rules." and we go on.. Back to Ozma after we clear that phase and again the same 2 get marked, but this time they do run away... into the other group's platform.

This infuriates one of the other group's tanks and they tell Alliance chat to bring all meteors to B team's platform next run. Which they actually do. I watched both A and C team run their marks to us, wiping everyone but me. So right after, I get the stack up marker, sprint to C group's platform and wipe them. In chat, I say "B team's revenge!" and my team is cheering me on in party chat.

Though the alliance doesn't get mad, actually laughing about it and we all agree to take the raid serious this time. So I explain the mechanics in party chat quickly before we try again. Everything is good, DRG gets marked with meteors and moves to the left like he's supposed to and all is well...

Until he gets a stack up marker. Now I don't know if he was confused or what, but when he got this marker he promptly proceeded to run away from us. Noticing this, I try to move towards him as well as most of our group. He notices this as well and activates sprint... which prompts us all to do the same.

Now this is where I absolutely die from laughter. After chasing him for about a good 5 seconds, he runs to the edge of the platform, turns around to look at us still running towards him, and he then proceeds to jump off the platform.

I have never laughed so hard before in this game. Literally the best thing I will always remember.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

the true north was the direction where the boss was facing.

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My group does this in 3s, where it makes sense because the mt is always on N, but... in 1s? Are... are they ok? The boss can go all over in that fight, it'd just make things so much more confusing...

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Originally Posted by Mirateski

My group does this in 3s, where it makes sense because the mt is always on N, but... in 1s? Are... are they ok? The boss can go all over in that fight, it'd just make things so much more confusing...

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In 3s, it makes sense because of her mechanic overload. But in 1s and 2s, it doesn't make any sense. Well, it's doable in 2s, but it would be an absolute nightmare. But that's what I was trying to tell the DPS. Needless to say, the party leader disbanded the group.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

Maybe most groups do act based on that. Maybe when the boss starts calling down his fireballs and is facing south, the whole party adjusts on that. I've never heard of such a thing, and to be perfectly honest, it seems unnecessary considering that the boss is just going to face the tank once that mechanic is done.

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He may be confusing V3 with V1. Most groups I have partied with, my static included, assign spots and adjust based on Halicarnassus' direction. This doesn't necessarily work with Alte Roite since he turns back around after casting Classical Elements. Not to mention, as a Samurai, he should always go 11 or 1 o'clock for Kenki uptime. Healers are usually in the back, so... I don't even know why he'd want that position.

What I like to do with pugs though is put down a waymark and have everyone stand at their assigned clock. Sometimes, the visual add helps.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

He may be confusing V3 with V1. Most groups I have partied with, my static included, assign spots and adjust based on Halicarnassus' direction. This doesn't necessarily work with Alte Roite since he turns back around after casting Classical Elements. Not to mention, as a Samurai, he should always go 11 or 1 o'clock for Kenki uptime. Healers are usually in the back, so... I don't even know why he'd want that position.

What I like to do with pugs though is put down a waymark and have everyone stand at their assigned clock. Sometimes, the visual add helps.

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Crazy thing is, we did have the waymarks in the cardinal directions. Had all our positions called too. He just wouldn't accept that the majority group followed that north on the compass was the true north. It was a bad group, anyways...people kept dying to fireballs or sliding off the map. And this had a duty completion tag in it...so yeah, really no excuse at this point.

CNJ in Haukke Manor who had no accessories or belt on, using an NQ NPC level 25 weapon, wearing Y'shtola's boots, no glamour. And they also had BLM at 60.

It's times like these, when you run into people who so clearly don't care at all, that you wonder why you should care.

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

It's times like these, when you run into people who so clearly don't care at all, that you wonder why you should care.

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You should care because you're a decent person unlike some

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Originally Posted by Mysterysword

CNJ in Haukke Manor who had no accessories or belt on, using an NQ NPC level 25 weapon, wearing Y'shtola's boots, no glamour. And they also had BLM at 60.

It's times like these, when you run into people who so clearly don't care at all, that you wonder why you should care.

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Similar story for me last night. Got into Stone Vigil with friend as tank, and the newbie SCH has mostly level 1 accs and a level 30 left side. I felt kind of bad for dismissing her after she D/Ced, but there was no way we were going to get through that run unscathed.