We Really Need To Talk About The State And Path Of FFXIV

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Though, honestly, this is fixable with the same fix to another significant problem.

Frontload classes skills. Make them be "Complete" earlier in the game and then rely on Traits to upgrade skills at later levels. So the core of the class exists even at low levels, but higher levels you're stronger with additional effects on your skills.

---

I had something similar in my mind.
The Core of the Samurai are the 3 Combos, Shinten, Hagakure and the Iajitsu Special and the Player needs all of them as early as possible.
Gurren is a better Shinten with an AOE Effect, but nothing I would need to learn before I learn Hagakure.

A Player could already learn the Basic of the Combos, Hagakure and Shinten, while leveling.
I have no clue, why they give the Player Meditate so early and before they give them Shinten.
Why Mercufil Eyes is a 58 Skill and not a 68 Skill.
Why Shinten is a Lvl 62 Skill. Really using the Kenki Gauge should start when you pick up the Class.
And Hagakure in 68. Hagakure is a absolut Bread and Butter Skill and the Player gets it a few Levels before hitting the max Level.

For the Dork Knight, they could easily push Skills like Darrk Passenger or Carve and Spit on higher Levels, because they are again like Gurren for the Sam Skills, that are used in between.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Part of it is viewpoints. As players, we spend our time playing the game. So we see it from a perspective of "What would we like to play?".

While developers spend much if not all their time making the game instead of playing it. So they see it from a perspective of "What would people like?" or, sometimes the worse thought "What would make more profit?" - Which focuses around how many MMO players like to only sub so long as they have new gear to work towards. So little mind is paid to anything that isn't new gear rewards.

---

I know, and I think, this is why our Feedback is so important. As rude and loud as we western Players can be, we straight say what is wrong with something and rarely drive around it.
When I saw some JP Feedback for Eureka in the neutral Part they were more like "Perhaps, maybe maybe, some people do maybe not enjoy this as much as other...maybe, but just maybe maybe...perhaps.".
It feels like some wanted to say something, but then remember that they have to be super polite. And it is not their fault, their whole society works this way.
But I think, this is not a real help, to improve a Videogame.

I know, the Devs see us as loud and rude, but at the same time, we straight jump for what we see as not well made. We praise what is good, but also talk about what we dislike.

Combine this with the habit of the Dev Team to only read the positive Feedback and we all know, why the Game does never really move forward.

I think, the Problem with this streching habit is, that people as soon as they drop the Game, never come back.
They burn out and never revisit the Game in any way, because so much feels streched to the Point of "No Fun Ville.".

I stopped playing, because of those streches and like I said a few Posts before, I just start the Game very rarely now and only because my Sub is still running for...it should be 20 days left from today.
But everytime I start the Game, I do not feel fun. Just the feeling of a dozen Tasks, streched for the sake of streching it. Finishing the Bluemage could be fun, if it would not involve running Primals up to 50 times, per Skill and hope RNG likes me.

It feels for me, like "The Hobbits" and the Lotr Trilogy."
Turning each Lotr Book into a seperate Movie was a great Idea and it worked really well and is really enjoyable.
But "The Hobbit", I would rather have seen one 180 Minutes Movie, instead of 3. The Book is not that big and for me, it felt streched. If they would have made one really good Movie, it could easily be on the same Level as any Lotr Movie, because they streched a pretty short Book into 3 Movies, every Movie felt weaker than any Lotr Movie.
I like Tolkiens work, but more=/= better.

And I feel like Game Devs today are scared to make a shorter but greater experience for their Players, because (sorry for the Word) Idiots try to make a Dollar/Hour Hobby out of it. Like the Value of a Game is determined by the Time needed to finish it.
I played some Games that were just 3-4 Hours long for 15 Euros and they were great.
And I played Games like Assassins Creed, that tried to strech their Game to over a 60 Hours Mark for no reason and instead made their Game weaker than it could have been.

This is also something I heard from some people about the Ultimate Fights.
They could be better, by being around 12 Minutes instead of 17.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

[...] they see it as "Oh, I guess people don't like FATEs" rather than the reality which is "FATEs aren't rewarding enough to bother with".

---

The Problem is something some call a "Harddate Problem".
After the Yokai Event it might have looked like we were absolutly Fate Crazy, but we only did those because of the Event, so they went with this Fate Idea around 24/7.

Blizzard is the best example of how to missinterpret such Data.
Someone once told me about the whole "We want more Deck Slots" Story of Hearthstone.
A lot of Players keep the last Slot open, for experiments.
And when they demanded, they got a response of the Devs. Because so many Players don't use all Deckslots, we do not see a reason to expand those.".
They just worked with the Numbers but did not understand why they got the results, they got.
And it is the same in 14.
They did not understand why the POTD was played a lot, they just see the Numbers and take them as their Feedback.

Btw. I enjoyed it, but gave up, because if you play Solo, there is a pretty high chance for a Disconnect, that is counted as a Death.
I don't run again all those Floors for another Disconnect.

Open world is bland and lacks dense vegetation. ARR looks better than any zone that has come since. Everything is just bland space with a couple trees plopped down. Look at La Nosca and the hot springs at bronze lake, etc. look at the zones since the expacs. Just bland rocks even the wall textures used to have moss growing on them you look at Yanixia its the same brown bland repeated texture. Please add some more trees and shrubs and ground cover so it at least looks as good as ARR in Shadowbringers. Look at Kugane 90% of people are standing in the street and you cant go in most of the buildings. Gyr Abania side is even worse, I get that its badlands but even Thalanan had cactus and some interesting things.

PS the poster above are right. I play potd just to be able to do something and not be in a 30 minute dps queue to play the game. Deep Dungeons could use some improvements.

well you are not wrong. Only thing that doesnt sit well with me is your raid section.
Dont get me wrong everything you said in there is absolutely true.
Now i dont mean to get political here but i need an analogy and it seems a perfect fit.
Heathcare isnt broken because people cant afford insurance. Healthcare is broken because hospitals think its ok to charge 90 dollars to hold your new born baby for 60 seconds.
Same situation with raids and rewards. Its not broken because raiders exist. its broken because REWARD CAPS exist.
OH My have reward caps gotten out of control. it started with highest tier tomes just before HS. now its:
Highest tier tomes
Highest tier 24 man
Highest tier normal Raid
Entire highest tier savage content.
which leaves only one endgame content not buffered by a stop wall. Eureka.
you can sit in eureka forever and ever, and you have to too because each kill is worth only a whopping 1/10000th of a level (i did the math)
but no matter what progression is steady throughout. That is literally the only redeeming quality eureka has going for it. Its not fun, its literally Final fantasy 11 on final fantasy 14's engine only without all the things that made Final fantasy 11 fun. So basically its all the things that were bad about final fantasy 11. Maybe Diadem and Eureka were paying respects to the old producer who was legendary with final fantasy 11. Guess what though. He isnt legendary. He was a failure in the end and was fired for it because he didnt respect the players. But i digress.

Bottom line it isnt the raiders that are the problem. Its the content and the very visible stoppage of progression. its the literal hand in your face that says OK player you did enough of that fun thing for the week see you next tuesday, now GFYS!
Im just venting here because i know the bosses are doing the same thing that Hiromichi Tanaka and Naoki Yoshida did. They are no longer listening to us. Its evident because Diadem and eureka have gone on for OVER a year now and we do not see any signs of regret.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Imuka

For the Dork Knight, they could easily push Skills like Darrk Passenger or Carve and Spit on higher Levels, because they are again like Gurren for the Sam Skills, that are used in between.

---

I'd have to disagree with those two. Before its nerf, Dark Passenger was the perfect iconic tempo-oGCD for DRK. And Carve and Spit, before the relative value of its mana (and potential last-ditch need for mana via defensive DA spenders) was nerfed, felt pretty integral. It provided some great-feeling burst, even if not all that potent in itself.

Honestly, for a lot of these jobs, there's little they can afford not to give early on, but that just means that the overall concept of the jobs are often just that... shallow. By level 60+, if not 50+, we should be looking at things which offer more nuance and opportunities to our kit, but should already have that kit in full swing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'd have to disagree with those two. Before its nerf, Dark Passenger was the perfect iconic tempo-oGCD for DRK. And Carve and Spit, before the relative value of its mana (and potential last-ditch need for mana via defensive DA spenders) was nerfed, felt pretty integral. It provided some great-feeling burst, even if not all that potent in itself.

Honestly, for a lot of these jobs, there's little they can afford not to give early on, but that just means that the overall concept of the jobs are often just that... shallow. By level 60+, if not 50+, we should be looking at things which offer more nuance and opportunities to our kit, but should already have that kit in full swing.

---

I was a DRK in HW and Dark Passenger was a good Skill back then.
But, if I would have to pick between Bloodspiller and Dark Passenger on 50, I would go for Bloodspiller, to make the Gauge work.
MP Management is an important Part, but first we need to implement all Basic Tools from my View.
This is why I see Shinten as more important for the Sam as Gurren. Gurren comes with this long CD so a Sam Player will always hit 100 Kenki, because of the long CD of Gurren.
Shinten can be used everytime, between 2 GCD Skills, so the Player already gets the feeling, where to use it later.

The biggest Problem with the whole System for the Classes is, that again, the Devs strech it for no good reason, just to strech it, for the sake of streching it out to the max Level.
And this is were they lose a lot of Players. Till someone reached the max Level, something that takes now a small eternity, the Classes just feel bad to play and unfun.

If someone here would post "I was on Level 45 and the Combat was so uterly boring, that I dropped the Game", I could not really say anything, because he /she is right about that.
And saying "It will be fun later, keep on playing", is just a horrible advice and in some way a showcase of bad Game Design in the Game.
A Game needs to be fun when I start it, not after 120-150 Hours into the Game.

This is what I absolutly dislike about the new way the Devs design new Content.
The Bluemage gets fun, when you have all the Skills, but farming the Skills is a RNG streched chore of boredom.
Instead of using Reccourses to make the whole Skill unlock Process fun and enjoyable, they made it absolute bare Bones. Give us a Book and tell us, where we get the Skills and then strech it with RNG.
Eureka maybe gets better at the end, but people need to play the really horrible start filled with RNG, utterly boring Grind and boredom for hours. Sometimes even completly Solo.
And even at the end, it is a Place with more RNG than a Gacha Game.

This Game starts to see itself like some kind of Job that needs to occuopy more and more time of the Player but without adding more Content and instead streching what we have.
Eureka would have been fine if it was designed as niche Content for Players who want to spend 5 or more Hours per day in the Game. Maybe with daily stuff for the Players with less time to progress faster because they have less time.
But they made it like a Niche MSQ Content by putting the Relic and all the other things like Hairstyles, Mounts, Songs, Minions, etc. into that thing and streched it as hard as they ever could. Handled like a Niche Content, but at the same time, the focus of the Design Team.
Like I said "They took a 0,5l Beer and mixed it with 5l Water, to have more "Beer"".

And this is a gigantic Problem of the Game now:
They strech Content to make it longer for the Players who spend +10 Hours a day in the Game, but also strech it for the regular Player who maybe plays the Game 10 Hours a week.
But while those people rush through Eureka in a few days, the other Player needs Months to get done with a single Weapon, being there every god damn day.

That first post is unreal. I've never seen so many bad opinions collected into one space.

Not sure if anyone touched on this but these folks running around in game asked my 16 year old niece if she wanted to hook up for some sexual role play. Those kinds of people roam, use nude or naked modded characters, making the game unsafe for children like my niece.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yhah

Not sure if anyone touched on this but these folks running around in game asked my 16 year old niece if she wanted to hook up for some sexual role play. Those kinds of people roam, use nude or naked modded characters, making the game unsafe for children like my niece.

---

Did this person know she was 16? Also, the mod only affects their own graphics, ultimately making no difference from them getting off to a fully-clothed cat-girl without the mod; in either case, we don't know what they're doing behind their monitor, nor what they fancy, but it's not exactly relevant either unless they start discussing things that ought not be discussed in knowing context of the other players' age. Though even then, it's still far safer than anything irl... You don't have to see any more than you intend, and needn't even hear them any longer than you like. Sure, there are strange people out there, but even if there were some twenty times as many problematic individuals here, she'd still be technically safer socializing with a broad spectrum of people in a game than via a video-chat program or in person.

lol
16? are you from the US by chance? that is no were a child. IF thats too much then idk... just say no and done.

leves are boring and crappy as hell, if you are talking about battle leves. Fates could are ok, if more rewarding. But Potd is more entertaining than either fates or leves, in my opinion. I think one problem with players, is they think everyone agrees with them, its also a problem for devs. People think they know what everyone else wants, then there is always people who hate what others wanted or love.

I think putting relic in Eureka, and Eureka itself was one of the most entertaining things SE has done in recent times. I enjoyed potd and HoH immensely. You dislike these things, Different players like different things. One could say you should just homegenize rewards, but having played a game like that, many people dislike that.

So, i dont think there is any right solutions, they just have to try their best to make things very entertaining and hope for the best

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yhah

Not sure if anyone touched on this but these folks running around in game asked my 16 year old niece if she wanted to hook up for some sexual role play. Those kinds of people roam, use nude or naked modded characters, making the game unsafe for children like my niece.

---

https://i.imgur.com/hWCE6gq.png

It's always concerning to see legitimate concerns downplayed when it comes to creepy players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

It's always concerning to see legitimate concerns downplayed when it comes to creepy players.

---

If they have legitimate concerns a GM should have been contacted... by the person it happened to. Assuming it even did happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

It's always concerning to see legitimate concerns downplayed when it comes to creepy players.

---

It's definitely a problem when and if it happens, but it has little to do with the direction of the game. That is what this topic is about. I didn't want to come across as downplaying it which is why I didn't respond to that post directly. Because I'm not nor do I want to downplay it. If it did indeed happen, my apologies to the poster. I hope the right action is taken. It's just not related to this thread at all which is why I can see why people think it may be troll bait.

Notice: Gaming experience may change during online play

Welcome to the online world, where people can freely curse and do other acts without anyone policing them. If you bring a child to such an environment, its your own fault as a parent. When it comes to online games, they simply just can't have GM's watching what every player does. Theres atleast 10 thousand players on a single server.

I just leveled a brand new character. It was a breeze on a starter server and with the pre order earrings (I started last Sunday and reached 50 on two jobs yesterday). But...

... the MSQ is painful. Actually it's horrible. And that you're forced to do it to unlock Heavensward is even worse. Don't get me wrong, the story of the MSQ is - for an MMORPG - ok, at times very interesting (I prefer the Primal storyline over the Garlean Empire thing). The quest types and nonsensical stuff you have to do is not. There are several underlying issues I am sure a lot of people have already mentioned but I will get over my biggest gripes with it:

1. Too many filler quests. The MSQ is full of useless crap quests. Oh, there's a primal we have to fight? It's very urgent? Nevermind, first we have to do a dozen quests revolving around the banquet (yes, it's to prove your worthy to fight Titan... *sigh*) and get the perfect wine for it. This gets a bit better at higher levels but it's still absolutely unnecessary.

2. Too many talk-deliver-talk quests. I don't want to know how often Person A sent me to Person B to talk two sentences and then I have to return to Person A. It's talk-teleport-talk-teleport-talk. There are so many quests that follow this scheme and they're just horrible to play. I spent more time in the loading screen during those quests than with the quest itself.

3. Dungeons / trials requirements - I understand these things and as a healer I got instant invites until the level 50 group quests but as DPS it's annoying and I can understand frustration towards it. Nevertheless it makes sense story-wise but isn't very well done in the end.

The MSQ hasn't aged very well. For modern standards it's horrible when you're honest with yourself. 1 + 2 are 95% of the problems I'd say and especially for new players this might be a reason to quit FFXIV even before reaching the awesome expansions.

As this is now a 114-page-long thread, I am pretty sure any points I would like to make have already been made, so I am going to just offer some terms that are kind of hard to look up until you've been told about them.

The term people seem to be looking for when they say "realism" is actually "verisimilitude". Basically, being believable and not knocking people forcibly out of their suspension of disbelief. There's a sort of transaction that goes on between the creator of any piece of fiction and their audience- basically, the audience doesn't intentionally look for the janky bits, and the creator does their best to hide the janky bits. Doesn't have to be realistic, just internally consistent and reasonably charitable to the audience's tolerance of the lack of realism.

A lot of the things about the game that seem to drive people nuts are breaks in verisimilitude. The maps that look super bad from angles the devs had every reason to expect them to be seen from, the plotlines that basically mock the player for putting up with fetch quests (yes, I am looking at the pre-Titan buildup as the worst offender I have seen yet), and even the classes that are massively broken until pretty much endgame are all broken verisimilitude. Even in a world with all the fantasy elements, they don't make sense in-world, they don't make the game more fun (which would make them more tolerable), and they don't add anything to the overall experience.

Then to the "but I/we've put so much into this" aspect. That's called the sunk cost fallacy, or just "throwing good money after bad". It's really easy to convince yourself that you can make something work with just a little more time/money/effort when you're heavily invested in it, because the more you already have invested, the bigger a mistake you've made (or at least, so says your hindbrain). "Fail Fast" was developed to try to weed out bad ideas before this mindset kicks in.

The tendency to mistake something as being caused by something else just because it comes about after the something else is "post hoc, ergo proctor hoc", literally "after this, therefore because of this", and people fall for it in a lot of cases because in much of everyday life, it serves well as common sense. Problem is, it's hard to tell without checking when you are in a case that it isn't working, so a lot of feedback is needed, which SE doesn't seem to care for.

Finally, I think these threads would be a lot more productive if people listened to one another's points rather than waiting to jump in, which I have been happy to see more of in the recent posts than the much earlier ones. Kudos!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SigmaOZ

Please wait until Final Fantasy XVII Online is released in the not so certain future!...


I think this game is beginning to fade (die) and I do hope it does, all I ask is that the next Final Fantasy MMO has the Miqo'te and Hyur races so I can import my characters from this game and continue in the new one!...

---

I see quite the opposite and you seem quite jaded or ready for a change. Maybe it's time to move to another game yourself?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crafter_Cat

even the classes that are massively broken until pretty much endgame are all broken verisimilitude.

---

How are the classes broken before endgame?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

How are the classes broken before endgame?

---

I think they're referring to how most jobs have some wonky rotation or freestyle opener until they get their 70 skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by van_arn

I think they're referring to how most jobs have some wonky rotation or freestyle opener until they get their 70 skill.

---

Eh, "wonky" seems too subjective and I would think there's always an optimum opener depending on the situation and level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

Eh, "wonky" seems too subjective and I would think there's always an optimum opener depending on the situation and level.

---

One would think, but considering how paste-eating the content is outside of cap that doesn't come into play. "Good enough" is overkill for leveling ranges; optimization is wasted on this content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by van_arn

One would think, but considering how paste-eating the content is outside of cap that doesn't come into play. "Good enough" is overkill for leveling ranges; optimization is wasted on this content.

---

Well, that's just player choice then, not really a bad thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

How are the classes broken before endgame?

---

The average ppm of different jobs varies tremendously with different level steps now that once you receive an ability, no matter its level, that ability must now be balanced around level 70 content, since all upgrade traits apart from ones which change the skill into one of different skill entirely were removed with the start of Stormblood. Oh, a skill which contributes the greatest portion of your oGCD healing at level 70? Here, have it at level 15. The other healers will get something almost as good at levels 60 and 50. You'll also do more Spell-based healing and damage than either of them for another 25 levels or more. And you'll be more mobile, of course. You'll need all that at level 70, after all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The average ppm of different jobs varies tremendously with different level steps now that once you receive an ability, no matter its level, that ability must now be balanced around level 70 content, since all upgrade traits apart from ones which change the skill into one of different skill entirely were removed with the start of Stormblood. Oh, a skill which contributes the greatest portion of your oGCD healing at level 70? Here, have it at level 15. The other healers will get something almost as good at levels 60 and 50. You'll also do more Spell-based healing and damage than either of them for another 25 levels or more. And you'll be more mobile, of course. You'll need all that at level 70, after all.

---

So you're complaining that different jobs get equivalent skills at different levels? It's not ideal, but I don't see how that's anything to do with "broken verisimilitude." If anything, making each job progress differently makes them distinct and increases verisimilitude.

Its more about how when some classes were balanced/reworked, their sub 70 versions turn into extremely boring slogs. Summoner is one that springs to mind from people Ive talked to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

Its more about how when some classes were balanced/reworked, their sub 70 versions turn into extremely boring slogs. Summoner is one that springs to mind from people Ive talked to.

---

Fair enough, but again, it's subjective whether or not that's a bad thing and, either way, has nothing to do with verisimilitude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

So you're complaining that different jobs get equivalent skills at different levels? It's not ideal, but I don't see how that's anything to do with "broken verisimilitude." If anything, making each job progress differently makes them distinct and increases verisimilitude.

---

You're confusing posters, I'm guessing. I never mentioned verisimilitude, of any quantity or change therein. I replied only to your question of the state of classes being "broken", describing why one might find their shared state (or, parity) across leveling unnecessarily (and seemingly, to a degree, intentionally, given that it was only recently and actively changed to be this bad) haphazard.

I know this thread is pretty much beaten to death with every issue, but I want to throw my two-cents in as a new player. I've played MMO's for at least 20 years, starting with Everquest back in 1999. I've seen some tedious, long-winded and boring gameplay. This game, for what I have seen, is really good! I love it and I want to play more. Unfortunately...not everything is good and fun. I have capped at 50, and need to complete a bloated story line in-order to progress to Heavensward. Now take into consideration that I also have a lot of free-time due to my work schedule. It's still taking forever to complete these quests. I'm burning out on the game already.

Someone mentioned to me that I can "pay to skip the AAR quests"...you've got to be kidding me. Why would I pay money to buy the game...buy a subscription...then pay MORE money just so I can actually progress and not beat my head against a wall. If anything THIS is the problem with player retention.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callibus

Someone mentioned to me that I can "pay to skip the AAR quests"...you've got to be kidding me. Why would I pay money to buy the game...buy a subscription...then pay MORE money just so I can actually progress and not beat my head against a wall. If anything THIS is the problem with player retention.

---

Again, they're working on that. More than likely they'll streamline it a lot better once they release Shadowbringers, but for right now, just stick along for the ride.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Again, they're working on that. More than likely they'll streamline it a lot better once they release Shadowbringers, but for right now, just stick along for the ride.

---

Okay so how come if I pay money I can bypass it? Seems like the temporary fix is letting people bypass it without paying, right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callibus

Okay so how come if I pay money I can bypass it? Seems like the temporary fix is letting people bypass it without paying, right?

---

No. People who choose to use the Level Potion to skip the Story and get caught up with their friends choose to do so. It's an avenue for commerce they've had since the release of Stormblood and it's actually a good marketing choice since it's not forced. The latter choice is working through the Story and experiencing it(which, honestly, is a very good way to go through FFXIV considering they put a lot of thought into the Story compared to most other MMOs) while trying to catch up. It takes a while because of the current strait of 2.1 - 2.55, which when you gain access to The Steps of Faith is the last portion before you get to go to Heavensward(which, Heavensward's Story is GREAT. I can understand why people want to skip considering Shadowbringers is right around the corner, but going through it all to get there is worth the experience).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callibus

Okay so how come if I pay money I can bypass it? Seems like the temporary fix is letting people bypass it without paying, right?

---

There was another thread discussing the ups and downs of the MSQ. My thoughts are you can skip MSQ to catch up via a jump potion, but they dont want that to be the norm. MSQ is pretty central to the FFXIV experience IMO, and if they changed the game so that the only thing keeping you out of content is your level (and not MSQ) itll become like wow pretty quickly. But if you really want to skip MSQ, they give you that option, just not for free so it doesnt become the standard choice.

Unfortunately, 2.1 to 2.55 feels pretty long based on how its set up. That section of the MSQ is the one most people complain about, and it does need some streamlining.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You're confusing posters, I'm guessing. I never mentioned verisimilitude, of any quantity or change therein. I replied only to your question of the state of classes being "broken", describing why one might find their shared state (or, parity) across leveling unnecessarily (and seemingly, to a degree, intentionally, given that it was only recently and actively changed to be this bad) haphazard.

---

No, I knew you're a different person. I just thought you knew I was asking in the context of the quotation.

That said, speaking more generally, I never felt any of the job wasn't able to perform at any stage of the leveling process or when synced down. So even with the progression difference, I would still disagree with calling them broken before endgame even generally speaking. That word, broken, deserves something worse than what we have currently with the jobs in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

No, I knew you're a different person. I just thought you knew I was asking in the context of the quotation.

That said, speaking more generally, I never felt any of the job wasn't able to perform at any stage of the leveling process or when synced down. So even with the progression difference, I would still disagree with calling them broken before endgame even generally speaking. That word, broken, deserves something worse than what we have currently with the jobs in my opinion.

---

Machinist has literally no control over its burst phase until Lv64 abouts (Cooldown), and no good control of it until Lv70 (Flamethrower). Dark Knight is missing The Blackest Night until lv70, and most of its defensive kit is balanced around it having a 15 second recast 20% HP shield.

You don't feel the imbalances of these jobs sub-cap because the situation is so rare that you're taxing the sub-cap kit to its limits. But imbalances definitely exist sub-cap, and some jobs play completely differently and often have extreme variance in levels of efficiency. This is generally fine though, the dev team has made it clear they balance for level cap, and level cap content is what matters the most because of endgame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Machinist has literally no control over its burst phase until Lv64 abouts (Cooldown), and no good control of it until Lv70 (Flamethrower). Dark Knight is missing The Blackest Night until lv70, and most of its defensive kit is balanced around it having a 15 second recast 20% HP shield.

You don't feel the imbalances of these jobs sub-cap because the situation is so rare that you're taxing the sub-cap kit to its limits. But imbalances definitely exist sub-cap, and some jobs play completely differently and often have extreme variance in levels of efficiency. This is generally fine though, the dev team has made it clear they balance for level cap, and level cap content is what matters the most because of endgame.

---

All that really matters is that the jobs can complete the duties within their level range, regardless of the level. Whether they play differently at various levels (which would be obvious for progression to exist) or with less balance or efficiency is irrelevant outside of being able to complete those duties. It's also part of growth. When the jobs haven't fully "matured," it is expected that they would not be at their best. That doesn't make the jobs broken before they're at their best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linay

All that really matters is that the jobs can complete the duties within their level range, regardless of the level. Whether they play differently at various levels (which would be obvious for progression to exist) or with less balance or efficiency is irrelevant outside of being able to complete those duties. It's also part of growth. When the jobs haven't fully "matured," it is expected that they would not be at their best. That doesn't make the jobs broken before they're at their best.

---

their point isnt that content is undoable, but rather that they feel clunky/bad/not balanced Before high level. Basically in general, they rework the jobs each expansion to make them about one playstyle at 70, then they remove pieces as they become lower level. So while playing at 50 used to feel like a complete experience, now, you are missing obvious synergies, and it varies with each class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

There was another thread discussing the ups and downs of the MSQ. My thoughts are you can skip MSQ to catch up via a jump potion, but they dont want that to be the norm. MSQ is pretty central to the FFXIV experience IMO, and if they changed the game so that the only thing keeping you out of content is your level (and not MSQ) itll become like wow pretty quickly. But if you really want to skip MSQ, they give you that option, just not for free so it doesnt become the standard choice.

Unfortunately, 2.1 to 2.55 feels pretty long based on how its set up. That section of the MSQ is the one most people complain about, and it does need some streamlining.

---

its weird to me that you think the only difference between WoW and ffxiv is the content lock of MSQ.
You feel like msq is what the game is primarily about, and that its important for each player to go through it the same way, i disagree. Msq is a book, or a movie, not a game. A game requires that all players follow similar rules, such that its fair, but a book/movie is different. Some people love the movie part of ffxiv, some dont.

Put yourself in someone elses shoes here. Imagine you don't need/like/care about story. Now imagine someone is making you watch 110 hours of something or fast foward through it for 50 hours in order to access the actual game portion. or you can pay 25 dollars.



If the story was actually integral to how the game is played, and an integrated part of the experience, like a pen and paper rpg, i would agree with you, but its simply not. Its a seperate thing which has no effect on your play if other people do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

their point isnt that content is undoable, but rather that they feel clunky/bad/not balanced Before high level. Basically in general, they rework the jobs each expansion to make them about one playstyle at 70, then they remove pieces as they become lower level. So while playing at 50 used to feel like a complete experience, now, you are missing obvious synergies, and it varies with each class.

---

Yes, that's part of growth. In the past, level 50 was the complete experience. It's not now, and the job progression reflects that. You can call it bad if you don't like how a level 50 plays now, but it's not broken if it can still do level 50 content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

You feel like msq is what the game is primarily about, and that its important for each player to go through it the same way, i disagree. Msq is a book, or a movie, not a game. A game requires that all players follow similar rules, such that its fair, but a book/movie is different. Some people love the movie part of ffxiv, some dont.

Put yourself in someone elses shoes here. Imagine you don't need/like/care about story. Now imagine someone is making you watch 110 hours of something or fast foward through it for 50 hours in order to access the actual game portion. or you can pay 25 dollars.



If the story was actually integral to how the game is played, and an integrated part of the experience, like a pen and paper rpg, i would agree with you, but its simply not. Its a seperate thing which has no effect on your play if other people do it.

---

We are playing an MMORPG Like most RPGs, the story implementation is just as big to the game as the gameplay itself. Yes, both experiences are separate but that doesn't make one more important then the other. They are both equally as important for the success of the game as a whole. Plus many great developers put their heart and soul in crafting great plots and characters for us to experience, not to be thrown to the wayside. Kazutoyo Maehiro being the main scenario writer has done an amazing job in crafting various likable characters as well as amazing plot. Then there is the world & lore of the entire game done by Koji Fox. Without all that the game would be rather bland. Think CODIV now that they removed the campaign mode.