Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

The overarching mentality is still exactly the same, and definitely comparable here. You have people who want to play the character/class they like, and then you have blowhards saying nothing should be played except the statistically "best" ones and that the rest may as well not even exist. Threads like this one are making it very clear on which side of the line people lie.

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Or everyone just want to succeed, without having to be called a "blowhard". And playing WHM doesn't give the same chance of success as playing AST or SCH. That's it. Everything isn't black and white.
Besides, people can have fun playing AST or SCH, you know. In fact, Diurnal AST is so close to WHM that WHM mains could very much enjoy playing AST, in addition of AST being clearly superior. What a shocking reveal.

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Originally Posted by Epo

I'll be able to cast plenty of cures and cure IIs.

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I'm curious as to what you consider "plenty," because you basically need to be spamming Cures to get frequent Lily and Confession procs. As Dreamweaver suggests, casting enough of these spells is not only almost always the opposite of efficient in terms of healing, it consumes so many GCDs that you don't benefit from significant DPS uptime.

I actually think this is a good way of looking at it, and I can agree with much of it.

My biggest problem with WHM was never it's "pure heals" style. WHM does incredible damage already with its 3 Aeros and Stone 3, but when you ran out of mana Shroud didn't last as long as LA for AST. Assize helped but it's cool down was too long to make up for how much mana Stone 3 would eat and healing would take.

The big issue with WHM for me isn't that it's "just heals". It's that if the content is easy enough you don't need big heals, and the built in mana management is so poor you can't spam DPS, then yeah WHM does seem boring and kinda useless.

You can make content harder or you can make mana way more manageable and let them throw more DPS. Now that WHMs can manage mana they can add a lot to DPS AND keep the party alive with those insane good heals. It's not as fancy as SCH/AST utility but the changes they made probably also put WHM back where it was before AST.

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Originally Posted by MarinaShore

The big issue with WHM for me isn't that it's "just heals". It's that if the content is easy enough you don't need big heals

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And even if you do need big heals, AST is flat out stronger.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Of course it does, which is why someone might still perform better on a class like WHM despite SCH/AST being statistically/capably superior. That or they just might *GASP* like it better.

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See you should have quoted the whole of my statement. Personal skill cannot give a class the utility they lack in their base code.

That is the point many WHM mains are arguing and why the ones that do perform at competitive levels are worried about further exclusion.

Not a raider or an overachiever myself but I do feel that my main is now lacking compared to the other classes in my role. I like it, I will play it, but that doesn't change the truth.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Last time you healed the dragon to death! Now... you must heal the entire army to death.... TO GROW YOUR LILIES!!! Even though now they'd be pushing up the daisies, BUT LILIES!

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WHM is going to retire from adventuring and open a #$!*ing flower shop at the culmination of their Stormblood storyline.

Oops, spoilers.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

WHM is going to retire from adventuring and open a #$!*ing flower shop at the culmination of their Stormblood storyline.

Oops, spoilers.

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Wait! Does that mean we can get the Aeris/Aerith costume and hairstyle?!

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Yes. That is exactly what that means.

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Hell yes! But wait... that also means that... >.>; <.<; >.<;

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I work in this industry thank you very much. Always link to the source, you may never know what the original image or context was. Most artists care very much because posting it on 4chan, reddit, imgur, facebook earns them nothing, and private systems like discord and slack don't provide a way for the artists to know where their comics are being shared.

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If you worked in the industry, then you would know of fair use practices.

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Fair use is a doctrine originating in the law of the United States that permits limited use of copyrighted material without having to first acquire permission from the copyright holder. Fair use is one of the limitations to copyright intended to balance the interests of copyright holders with the public interest in the wider distribution and use of creative works by allowing certain limited uses that might otherwise be considered infringement. Examples of fair use in United States copyright law include commentary, search engines, criticism, parody, news reporting, research, and scholarship. Fair use provides for the legal, unlicensed citation or incorporation of copyrighted material in another author's work under a four-factor test.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Wait! Does that mean we can get the Aeris/Aerith costume and hairstyle?!

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Yes. That is exactly what that means.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Hell yes! But wait... that also means that... >.>; <.<; >.<;

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RIPWHM: it'll finally become canon.

The biggest issue, BY FAR, isn't limited to our non existent synergy with ANY jobs and 0 raid utility.
It's the fact that not only are all of our new SB heals gated behind multiple layers of RNG, but that RNG is all based solely off of Cure spamming.

Which means if a WHM doesn't cast an excessive amount of cures regularly, not a single bit of their new abilities are being out to use.
It feels so tacked on and lacking of creativity. It's really a shame. This goes beyond just not being raid relevant. It's just not fun to use at all.

Look at Earthly Star from AST. Simple, satisfying to use, and fun. Spamming cure up to 15 seconds just for a slightly faster OGCD or AOE heal is ridiculous and horrifically underwhelming.

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Originally Posted by Epo

Oh, but isn't there a secret of the lily II? Doesn't that reduce the cooldown by a WHOPPING 5 seconds per cure or cure II crit?

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No, it doesn't. You missed the 20% proc chance there, too. You will be lucky to see one CD reduction per minute with that factored in. It also says reduce Asylum OR Assize's cooldown. I'm honestly not sure how that ends up working. Does it hit both if they're both on cooldown? Is it a 20% chance for one, then a 20% chance for the other? Is it a single 20% chance that then gets applied to one randomly? I don't have that information yet.

I have not seen many people saying Thin Air is weak. It's quite a powerful MP longevity button. Even if only used to spam Stone IV, it is no slouch whatsoever. It's obviously incredibly potent if used in conjunction with things like Holy spam. In fact, that's why tons of people whose posts you've probably skimmed over have talked about how much of a powerhouse white mage will be in dungeons with how much holy spam it will be able to get away with. I'm not concerned for MP at all with thin air, to be honest. It's STRONG. In raid fights with significant AoE, it's 100% worth considering how much AoE damage the white mage will be able to bring.

Also, Assize is now 60 seconds, not 90. With 3 lilies it's a 12 second reduction. Before you talk about how that's even more MP since it's on a shorter CD, I should remind you that if you are saving your lilies for Assize it means you are not using your other CDs in the process, particularly asylum which is not an emergency button so is not often saved for such situations. You are welcome to try to build 3 lilies for Assize every time; at the current numbers, on average, you should spam cure for almost the entire time Assize is off cooldown to obtain 3 lilies to reduce its CD again.

Practically, if you're trying to build lilies specifically for Assize, you're probably not healing efficiently since you're spamming cure/cure 2 instead of using Regen or Medica 2 to handle the types of damage they were literally designed for, and are very efficient for. That extra MP you're getting from casting Assize earlier is likely a wash, as you'd be in a better boat to begin with using efficient spells, including all the other ones that cost 0 but will consume your lilies. You would literally have more MP using other spells and idling in the downtime than you would by spamming cures instead.

Oh, and you're not spamming stone for our good single target DPS if you're doing this CD reduction fetch-quest, by the way.

You also call WHM heals 'potent as frick' when AST potencies are straight up comparable in every way, if not higher (Aside from having Cure 3 on demand - which you mention spamming of as for "bads," I might add). I also feel you overstate its single target DPS. I agree it's quite powerful when examined straight up with SCH's and AST's single target, but the total package is not as far forward due to the existence of balance and scholar's new fancy libra-crit toy. With PoM it's a lot of burst if a fight demands it (Hand of Pain).

Perhaps you're the one who needs to examine the info better, as you claim we should. There are factually two things incorrect with your post with the numbers we currently have, the 20% proc chance for the 5s cooldown reduction on crits, and Assize being 60 seconds now.

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Originally Posted by Nix

I'd be stoked if folks posted my work (since I make cash based on commissions) as long as they didn't edit any watermarks/URLs out, but that's just me :<. I can't expect everyone to link to my site etc etc~

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It's hard enough trying to encourage artists to watermark their comics with their site. So no, sharing just the image is not fine. The artist community has to remind the media on twitter of this every time someone posts kcgreen's "this is fine" dog comic.

If people don't have it in their collective memory to link the source of things they like, then artists will keep losing out.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If you worked in the industry, then you would know of fair use practices.

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It is not fair use to steal an image and host it somewhere else. That is copyright infringement.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The fact that people have stated a few times that they never case Cure I at all, tells me that people are aren't playing it the way it's intended to be played.
(…)
The intended gameplay is "what is the best thing to cast" not "what do I need to keep pressing" like a DPS.

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There is not a single place or time where it was implied that the "correct" way of playing WHM is by mainly using Cure and Cure II. In fact, I say that the skills you get from your Job say the exact opposite.

The first thing you get as a WHM is a new and shiny cooldown, Presence of Mind. You get 5 whole levels to experiment and learn from it, how it can be used in a pinch for fast healing or how it can be used for a great DPS burst. With a 150s cooldown you can use it every other pull and since there is no dfficulty spike from level 29 to 30+ you quickly realize you don't need to sit on this cooldown for emergency healing, but should make full use of it to extend your capabilities.

Soon after you get something that is game changing and gives WHM their own identity: Regen. Suddenly trash mobs damage is way easier to handle; you soon realize you can toss a Regen on a DPS if they are in range for a full heal for a Cure 1 but you expect them to take a bit more damage in the near future, saving you precious GCDs to focus on the tank or other thing that needs your attention. Most importantly, if you were still afraid of unleashing Presence of Mind full potential now you can do it even more safely with your HoT to back you up.

What comes up next? Divine Seal. Now you have a tool to make your very efficient HoT even more powerful! Not only this is a step up from what you could do previously, but now you can also use this to reliably pick the tank back up from a lower health %, which means you can spend more time in Cleric Stance. And don't forget this is on a short 60s cooldown, you can use this every freaking pull! Why would you even sit on it for emergency only?

By this point your playstyle as a WHM is starting to consolidate. You have learnt that your HoT is very powerful and versatile, you understand that you have a skill you can use every pull to make your HoT even more powerful and let's you stay on cleric longer and you have worked out this interaction to make a better use of Presence of Mind.

And then BOOM, you have Holy. Holy (hah, get it?) shit! It hits like a truck, costs a butload of MP and has a heavy cast and recast time. First thing that crosses your mind? PRESENCE OF MIND THIS THING! You know how to do it by this point! And you know what? It even makes things SAFER and EASIER by stun locking the mobs, that is some HEAVY synergy right there. The game TRAINED you to do this by this point. You know what else you already have to help you with that MP cost and aggro you are generating with all this? Shroud of Saints. You can even open your rotation by Swiftcasting Holy for an early stun.

With Benediction you can be sure you can keep the tank up and running even if you get too greedy with the Holys. By this point you also get Medica II, extending your HoT capabilities for single target to AoE and it even stacks with Regen for double MP and GCD efficiency.

Asylum expands your AoE HoT capabilities letting you better cover the entire party AND the tank who can now stack the effects of 3 HoT that can all be augmented by Divine Seal. As if this is not enough, you can still stun things with Holy so you can DROP. THE. DEEPS. (drop them even more when Stone III and Aero III make their way to your skillbars).

Assize has multiple utilities, it helps you keeping your MP up and you can both use on Cleric to push more damage and give you more Holy sustain with the extra MP or drop cleric for some instant AoE healing when you know a moderate party-wide hit is coming up.

Tetragrammaton completed your WHM kit by giving you access to a powerful instant and MP free heal on a relatively short cooldown, it has a butload of applications and is best used whenever you can.

All of this and the only thing that Cure/Cure II got is rewarding you for not wasting your MP by using Cure when really needed and most of the time only Cure II when Free Cure procs. And still you say the "right" way for playing WHM is tossing all that aside and rely on Cure and Cure II.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If a WHM's opening move is to cast regen on the tank followed by Medica II and then DPS'ing for 21 seconds, that WHM is not playing the way Yoshi-P intended, and thus they will not have time to recover from mistakes due to CS.

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This is not even how CS works. If you were DPS’ing for 21 seconds you can INSTANTLY drop CS and go back to healing. Are you really this detached from reality? And I just made a very good case on why this “Yoshi-P intended way” you like to spew around so much finds no confirmation whatsoever on how WHM is designed.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

As it is, with the DF, there four kinds of parties:

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This was covered by Skyrior.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The most obvious way to play WHM is simply:
Who is bleeding? Nobody? Can you cast Stoneskin on someone? Can you throw up a DoT?

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This is already wrong. Casting Stoneskin like that is terribly inefficient on both an MP or GCD standpoint. You can heal for more than 10% health and using less MP with a single Cure or better yet with a Regen. Battle Stoneskin in 90% of the cases is only good for pre-emptive shielding when a big hit is coming.

Also, "can you throw up a DoT"? You should be upkeeping your DoTs as much as possible and not pondering about throwing up a DoT every once in a while.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Tank is bleeding. Cast Cure I
Tank is still bleeding. Cast Cure I
Tank has lost half it's HP. Cast Cure II
Tank isn't recovering HP fast enough. Cast Cure II, then regen
If the tank is still loosing HP at this point, Benediction and Tetra are the last available options. If you've blown the CD's on them, then you're just going to have to use Cure II spam since you can't stack regen.

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You should start by using a Regen, and not using it if you can’t keep up with Cures exactly because Regen pays off over time. The sooner you get it up the more you get out of it. The tank will bleed less, you will need to cast fewer Cures, save GCDs, save MP and be a better WHM overall. If you are doing your job right you don’t even need to worry about the tank bleeding on a mob until they are immune to the Stun effect of your Holy spell.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

DPS is bleeding. Will they survive 5 seconds? If Yes, keep healing the tank
DPS is still bleeding. Cast Cure or Cure II whichever fits their damage

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Same from above. DPS is bleeding, will survive 5 seconds and there is possibly more damage incoming? Fling a Regen if it is only one person, go ahead and Medica II if you need that on multiple targets. Now you don’t have to worry about using multiple Cure/Cure II spells to keep the rest of the party healthy. (and don’t forget Asylum!)

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

99% of the time, the Tank is always bleeding once Stoneskin is dropped. If you are constantly blowing the CD's on everything, then you don't have those tools when you need them.

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It will be bleeding 99% of the time if you don’t use your damn HoT skills. Do you see the pattern here? It is obvious that you don’t have the slightest clue of how to use your HoT and thus get scared of using Cooldowns that will be up, if not at every single pull, every other pull.

Your WHM game is limited, poorly executed and poorly thought out, not ours.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

What I'm hearing from the raiders is "don't take my lazy healing away" when they've been the ones accusing WHM's of being lazy by not DPS'ing. So pretty much every complaint about changes to WHM stems from this lazy healing technique of casting only Medica II and Regen on everyone instead of Cure.

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Only lazy person I see here is you. You are too lazy to think about how WHM skills interact with each other and make WHM much greater than Cure/Cure II. The party wide healing potential you can bring to the table while maintaining high personal DPS is no joke, but instead of learning that you prefer to just repeat your “Yoshi-P intended” delusional talk.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It is not fair use to steal an image and host it somewhere else. That is copyright infringement.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512

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Stealing implies claiming credit for work you did not produce. Had Ama posted, "look at the comic I drew!" You would have a point. She did not, but merely made a parody using said work with no claim of ownership. That is fair use per the description I quoted. You really need to stop speaking about things you don't understand.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Diurnal and Nocturnal Sect have 15% increased healing potency.

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False? I could care less about this argument atm, b/c no one is going to win. BUT we do not know for sure if Diurnal is 15% or 10% yes I know not much of a difference, but thanks to this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._japanese_and/

https://www.famitsu.com/images/000/1...dac556ebd7.jpg

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Originally Posted by Erakir

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Thank you pointing out that I did in fact screw up the Assize timer, but like you said, that is also in fact more mp saved. Sorry for putting the initial 18 seconds, though I never once mentioned the 90 second timer (You just know I used that when doing my maths because you saw the 18!) but I did do the maths on the spot and just pulled up my game to do it. Simple mistake, but again, as you said, more MP saved ♥ :P And as a main healer, I have to cast cure II almost every time a tank buster happens and sometimes even when one doesn't! (that's a lot of cure IIs!) And yeah, it's RNG based. But you're saying AST isn't? x:

Also while I can see how my "per cure or cure II crit" could easily taken to mean every heal, I didn't forget to take the proc chance into account. I forgot to mention it in the post as I made it while pretty heated (which I imagine should be obvious from the attitude in the post!) But again, thank you for bringing that up but it's still not something I see a worry over.

Also as far as cure III goes, my post says usually for the bads. Thanks for taking that out of context xD (although you probably just replied with being heated like I was and didn't mean to leave that info out!) Because, I do find Cure III as an INCREDIBLY valuable skill. The spamming is what I usually need for bad parties (and by spamming, I mean SPAMMING) but frequent use is not reserved for bad parties.

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Originally Posted by Epo

And as a main healer, I have to cast cure II almost every time a tank buster happens and sometimes even when one doesn't! (that's a lot of cure IIs!) And yeah, it's RNG based. But you're saying AST isn't? x:

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1. Tank busters are relatively infrequent, and Cure/Cure II spam is usually reserved for situations gone south, so I don't think of it as a regular thing for WHMs.

2. This level of RNG is not at all on the same level of reward as what AST has. We're comparing some very shitty apples to some seriously glorious oranges in that case.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Stealing implies claiming credit for work you did not produce. Had Ama posted, "look at the comic I drew!" You would have a point. She did not, but merely made a parody using said work with no claim of ownership. That is fair use per the description I quoted. You really need to stop speaking about things you don't understand.

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You're the one who doesn't understand what they are talking about. I'm not arguing about the contents of the comic, I'm telling you that it is jerk-tier behavior to steal an image from a website, modified or not, and post it somewhere else and not link back to the source. One of the people I have worked with in the past sent invoices to websites who took her images.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

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Tank busters happen pretty frequently in my opinion o.O Not to mention, again that we still don't know what Stormblood content holds and could VERY well require many tank busters to be healed. Also, if you don't have to cast cure II on a frequent basis as a main healer in end game content (We're not talking Zurvan here, that ain't end game :P ), then I feel bad for any cohealers you have that could be pure dpsing instead :X (Though to be fair we also have echo atm and loads more gear than we did when savage was first released so even if Stormblood stayed the same, which I don't believe it will, then we can't compare it to the game in it's current state)

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

https://www.famitsu.com/images/000/1...dac556ebd7.jpg

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You missed the one with Nocturnal, but as of the German media tour which Famitsu has pulled this from, Nocturnal is 15% and Diurnal is 10%. Yes, these numbers are subject to change. But that doesn't mean that they will change either so...

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

You missed the one with Nocturnal, but as of the German media tour which Famitsu has pulled this from, Nocturnal is 15% and Diurnal is 10%. Yes, these numbers are subject to change. But that doesn't mean that they will change either so...

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Well I didn't miss Nocturnal b/c like you said that hadn't changed from the quote I quoted, so ok? But again... since so many people want to use these potencies as "the gospel truth" so many people fail to realize, this all is not finalized yet.

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Originally Posted by Yamimarik

False? I could care less about this argument atm, b/c no one is going to win. BUT we do not know for sure if Diurnal is 15% or 10% yes I know not much of a difference, but thanks to this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._japanese_and/

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Aha! Fair enough, though the point remains. Even 10% pushes Benefic above its Cure counterparts.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You're the one who doesn't understand what they are talking about. I'm not arguing about the contents of the comic, I'm telling you that it is jerk-tier behavior to steal an image from a website, modified or not, and post it somewhere else and not link back to the source. One of the people I have worked with in the past sent invoices to websites who took her images.

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There is a watermark on the comic though telling you where and who it came from originally. Even were the comic image itself a link, many folks who viewed it may not click. Unless the artist codes their site to make right click impossible this will keep happening until we get technology that pays the artists for us.

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Originally Posted by Epo

Tank busters happen pretty frequently in my opinion o.O Not to mention, again that we still don't know what Stormblood content holds and could VERY well require many tank busters to be healed. Also, if you don't have to cast cure II on a frequent basis as a main healer in end game content (We're not talking Zurvan here, that ain't end game :P ), then I feel bad for any cohealers you have that could be pure dpsing instead :X (Though to be fair we also have echo atm and loads more gear than we did when savage was first released so even if Stormblood stayed the same, which I don't believe it will, then we can't compare it to the game in it's current state)

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*Edited for content*

No, tank busters are not "frequent." They occur at predictable intervals regardless of whether we are talking about Savage content or generic bosses.

Neither I nor anyone else here is suggesting that you never use Cure or Cure II; the concern is that new WHM mechanics are tied specifically to these two heals that we all try NOT to use except as necessary because we have more efficient options at our disposal.

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Originally Posted by Epo

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Alright, fair enough - I'll cool down too~

I actually cast more cures and cure IIs than a lot of people on this forum seem to indicate, often in the name of safety, and often because cure will often suffice where regen would likely end up as significant overkill. And I too love Cure 3.

Mentioning tankbusters, though - sure, prep a Cure II for it. But I don't think these are often as you indicate. Even in dungeons, things like Deadly Thrust tend to occur no more than once every 30 seconds. It may seem quicker in the battle itself. In my own experiences I believe I'm casting, on average, no more than one cure or cure II every 10 seconds. That's going to lead me to an average of one lily every 50 seconds, if I'm even at that. And I consider myself a heavier cure caster than many of the users here.

Because it's random and so many short duration cooldowns consume it that I SHOULD be using pretty frequently, I can't plan around it at all. I very well might have 3 lilies if I get significant lucky - but for being significantly lucky, the effect of them is...poor. The numbers just aren't going to add up to take decent advantage of secret of the lily, lily II, and even our level 70 skill (which, if I'm lucky, will at least be on the tank). Again, I'm looking at probably one stack every minute on the tank, since the tank's going to get the bulk of the cures. Maybe 1 every 15-20s in high demand situations. I don't hate the ability, but it's also pretty weak for how low the chance is.

You're also gonna have to scan buff bars of the party to see if it's even worth using, by the way.

As for AST - the issue that comes into play here is that AST's healing is not RNG based. Like, at all. Major healing mechanics tied to RNG just don't work out very well when it comes to MMOs. Healers thrive on consistency. Those who have effects with crits try to maximize crit to have greater consistency with its effects. I could point to the old Regrowth in WoW as an example when its crit rate could be pushed to 65-70%, and it played off critting. It was still a gamble, but people could more or less gamble safely on it. You can take an ability like clearcast in WoW and see it go okay, too, because almost everything you do has a chance to generate a clearcast, and you have multiple ways to spend that clearcast. The generation of lilies and the effects of them, combined right now, are just weak.

The only things we've had so far on the proc system are Freecure, which is free so you find a place to dump it, and Overcure - which...goes unused a lot of the time because of how situational cure 3 is to begin with.

This system we have right now - it could function. Thing is, the chances we have right now are so low to begin with that realistically, all of these things end up as a slight bonus rather than something we actually play around. There's nothing really dynamic you get to do with them, either. I can't see a scenario where I'll feel intelligent for using an ability with the lilies a certain way, bolstering my overall effectiveness because I did something good. I am seriously considering just turning off the lily HUD if I can, for what it's worth. The effect of them is not enough to make me delay using an ability when I need to.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It's hard enough trying to encourage artists to watermark their comics with their site. So no, sharing just the image is not fine. The artist community has to remind the media on twitter of this every time someone posts kcgreen's "this is fine" dog comic.

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I tell you what, feel free to hit up sites like imgur, pinterest etc and carry on with this crusade.

Speaking as an artist - as long as folks aren't editing my watermarks/urls/claiming credit, then I say have at it.
If an artist doesn't watermark their work, that's on them.

Sharing and stealing are two totally different things.

Okay I'm bad at forum formatting and can't figure out how to double quote so I'm just gonna use this with @ mentions in this post!

@Crynfael Sorry! I didn't mean to say you as in you, but rather you as a general thing. My bad!

@Erakir Yeah, I agree that the lilies aren't something to directly play around. But I do think they can make enough of that bonus you're talking about to still be useful enough to add to our already nice skills (Like assize!)

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Originally Posted by Epo

Very rarely do shields or anything of that sort come into the conversation.

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Except white mage has nothing for mitigation. they used to have virus (and a pretty lousy one that doesnt mitigate magic damage), e4e and stoneskin. Now all they have is e4e (which is incredibly unreliable) and that horrible lily based barrier shit, which is on a single target, on a cooldown and it consumes lilies. Sure, ast and sch lost disable and supervirus, but whm never had those in the first place. The little utility they had in stoneskin is gone now, and thus they have barely any utility for dps or mitigation.


even if things hit like a truck like in a8s and we actually sorta need cure 3 and all of that, remember that people were actually able to clear a8s with ast/sch back before ast got the buffs. the damage would have to be absolutely ridiculous for whm to be actually needed in savage raids, and even if it is, once people manage to reach the threshold on ast/sch theres simply no reason to take a whm with them anymore. which is what most people are complaining about. it really is sad, because i expected whm to get..... something useful at least, but theyre not even good at being a "pure healer" compared to the other healers sadly.

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Originally Posted by Miste

lol that is actually really cute *.*

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ikr? and i doono about showing link or w/e I just thought it was really cute
cute, funny, true, best joke you can do.

Also for the people defending me, thank you. The person would only had a point if i was trying to claim I did it, and I did not do that.

Aramina, Nix, Bourne_Endeavor, Keridwyn, thank you

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Originally Posted by QooEr

snip

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Totally agree with you on the mitigation! xD But did you even read the whole post...? I mention at the bottom how WHM doesn't have that mitigation and how I don't believe it's needed because we do bring an AST or SCH anyway. It's not useful to have two jobs based around mitigation (which is why I imagine it to be very rare to see an AST in Nocturnal stance with a SCH!). Since you don't bring both of them, that still leaves a spot for WHM. (Yeah, you could bring that AST in Diurnal stance but then that nulls the mitigation we're talking about at the current moment)

The issue being, that AST (as it's been proven) can heal better than WHMs because of buffs (some of which they are now getting in the CC stuff).

i'm not being antagonistic, so don't take it that way. I talk to AST mains and they've raged more than me over the changes. I'm wary and not exactly keen on the changes. I don't like the gated-ness, the RNG-ness and overall the fact that WHMs were already fairly shunned (I've been kicked from dungeons because i was running stuff on WHM) for many things. it's created a bit of bitterness and with all that's going on, I'm not saying I don't hate them (now that i've cooled off and stared wide eyed at my AST and SCH friends raging about WHM changes) but...i'm very, very leery about the changes and how it will effect things overall.

Are we sure KisaiTenshi isn't an alt and she actually does have a 60 whm somewhere and is only posting on an alt account due to a ban or something? Cause it could be that?

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Originally Posted by Hikuras

Are we sure KisaiTenshi isn't an alt and she actually does have a 60 whm somewhere and is only posting on an alt account due to a ban or something? Cause it could be that?

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She still isn't making sense either way.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Edited my post because I took a gander at said poster's profile and felt a little mean.

It looks like they've come back after a hiatus, WHM is their only class and it's in Yasha/ Gordian gear, so they likely haven't played much of anything past the original HW MSQ as far as level 60 content goes.

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Ehhhh I wouldn't worry too much about it. KisaiTenshi is troll-tier. Just take a peek at her posting history. I had to take a shower after that. If she's not a troll, then she does legit believe Cure/Cure II are the WHM's bread and butter, and that Regen/Medica II are more 'extra tools,' or something. But hey, I guess if you can clear MSQ by only using Cure II, it makes sense that some people would feel that way about the job. I think. Perhaps. Maybe???????????

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Originally Posted by Hikuras

Are we sure KisaiTenshi isn't an alt and she actually does have a 60 whm somewhere and is only posting on an alt account due to a ban or something? Cause it could be that?

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Alt or no alt, it is plain obvious by this point that she can't into WHM.

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Originally Posted by Epo

Tank busters happen pretty frequently in my opinion o.O Not to mention, again that we still don't know what Stormblood content holds and could VERY well require many tank busters to be healed. Also, if you don't have to cast cure II on a frequent basis as a main healer in end game content (We're not talking Zurvan here, that ain't end game :P ), then I feel bad for any cohealers you have that could be pure dpsing instead :X (Though to be fair we also have echo atm and loads more gear than we did when savage was first released so even if Stormblood stayed the same, which I don't believe it will, then we can't compare it to the game in it's current state)

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Even if the frequency or damage calculations increase, Astro remains stronger at both healing and utility. Keep in mind, you'll need to cast an average of 15 GCDs-- approximately 38 seconds -- just to stack three Lilies. That means throughout those 38 seconds, you cannot use Asylum, Tetragrammation, Assize or Divine Benison. How often does that honestly occur because in my own experience, I have never once gone that long without using at least one of those abilities. The Lily mechanic is essentially Spear. How many people actually like that card? There's a reason it's considered Royal Road fodder. Cooldown reduction just... isn't a valued mechanic. At least not at such low amounts. 4% is worthless; 10% is barely noticeable and even 20% is only decent. People pre-plan their cooldowns.

The only way this system is salvageable is if Lilies can be accumulated through Medica, Medica II, Stone IV and Regen. Let White Mage drown in cooldown reduction. It's still not Astro levels of amazing, but at least they would be visible enough.

First off, I want to say thank you for reading between the lines of the information given to us thus far. I seriously felt all alone with my thoughts on WHM and the potential it brings into 4.0.

I won't deny that it lacks utility. I won't deny that the lily system is questionable at best right now. But I absolutely refuse to follow a herd of doomsayers before the expansion is even released. When I look at the changes to WHM, the lily gauge is the furthest thing from my mind. I am far more curious about the best role skills to equip, and if I can actually leave our previous innate abilities behind.

I never expected any additional utility to ramp up other player's dmg as soon as they mentioned they want WHM to return to its original identity as a pure healer. I also anticipated WHM would lose any ability it had to mitigate damage. Somehow, everyone thought SE was joking? I saw it as a challenge to the devs to find another way to get WHM back in business, and DMG seems to be the route they took.

I don't do savage content. So I am a bit on the outside looking in when it comes to the demanded utility. However, what I believe any hardcore raider would state is that in order for WHM to be competitive with DMG alone, it needs to be able to provide the boosts to the other players that the other two healers bring to the raid through its own toolkit. Obviously, we have to start compiling numbers to see what an optimized WHM is dishing out, but the potential is there, and I can hear it screaming in my face. WHM may have lost its mitigation skills, but I believe we all agree on one of the best forms of damage mitigation: By causing lots of damage so things die quickly. Strangely, this seems to have been forgotten in the last 48 hours.

SCH is my other main, and I can't even begin to express how much more excited I am for WHM than SCH. The lily system isn't carved in stone. It will VERY likely get adjustments in future patches, but right now I believe the devs are just playing it safe to make sure they don't OP WHM. It's one thing to develop and test new abilities, and a whole other pizza when it is released to the playerbase who will find loopholes to make it work, or completely leave it in the dust. It wouldn't be the first time SE released something that was dead on arrival. We just have to wait.

Lastly is the context of "Pure healer". I am not so certain that it means a healer only heals and that is it. But I can see where the devs are going with getting WHMs to use cure and cure 2 more. Its just making content where they need to do it without making our other two healers inadequate. Without Stoneskin, we may very well have to begin trash pulls by getting a tank back to a healthy state, which will provide an opening opportunity to get some lilies before you stack your regens. Try to start thinking how to optimize this new system, instead of throwing it in the trash before it is even released.

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but couldn't this have gone in any one of the 5 other threads? >.>;

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-4.0-have-been

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Needs-for-4.0

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...uff-Change-WHM

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-In-Stormblood

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ics-for-WHM%21

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Originally Posted by TheAngelneer

Only lazy person I see here is you. You are too lazy to think about how WHM skills interact with each other and make WHM much greater than Cure/Cure II. The party wide healing potential you can bring to the table while maintaining high personal DPS is no joke, but instead of learning that you prefer to just repeat your “Yoshi-P intended” delusional talk.

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If only 2% of the players are clearing the raids, then clearly 2% is not the majority of the player base. They aren't clearing them because of this toxic attitude by players touting the BiS gear and one-true-dps-rotation, and bullying players who aren't playing their way. The forum isn't even representative of the majority of the playerbase, just the loudest.

As evidence from this thread, and a several other threads, you all would rather try an insult and bully me than actually maybe consider that there is another way to play, and that is what Yoshi-P encourages.

Do not reply to the bait!

Think instead about happy things, like SE buffing WHM in 4.1 to actually not-trash-tier. SE if you are reading this... PLEASE. Give us back our tool kit.