Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by dannymayhem

first post ever! :)

and just want to say it sounds like I shouldn't have any issues seeing how I will be playing the class how it is now and never played it how it was

sorry to hear it sounds like it isn't as good, or maybe, as fun? as it once was but at least I will know no different

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You'll still have to play it the way it used to be pre lvl 52.
Only beyond that the new skills will come into play.

It's just that you won't have to memorize and optimize the old rotation and then have to re-learn it again as you can just get by doing whatever till you can practice the new playstyle.

Yeah this one seems like a bust.

The whole point of making a bard is the ability to move around while playing. Adding a cast time to everything - one might as well just be playing a Thaumaturge now.

People make Summoners and Scholars because they like having a pet. Why not just take that away too - and make them identical to Thaumaturge and White Mage? Force Warrior to carry a shield or remove it from Paladin.

Clip all the ears and tails off M'Qote... they don't serve any game purpose after all. Just remove all the non-Hyur elements.

Except those are the choices people went for in picking what to play...

This is a Job-killing change. It makes the point of taking this job over another ranged DPS... pointless.

You know, you can just drop WM when you need to move.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

Yeah this one seems like a bust.

The whole point of making a bard is the ability to move around while playing. Adding a cast time to everything - one might as well just be playing a Thaumaturge now.

This is a Job-killing change. It makes the point of taking this job over another ranged DPS... pointless.

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Bard is much funner and more engaging and thoughtful now than it was in 2.x, in my opinion. The job wasn't killed, it was vastly improved. Comparing us to a thaumaturge says "i don't know what i'm talking about". Saying that you can no longer move around while playing says "I don't know what i'm talking about". And stating what you think the purpose of playing bard is as if it applies to everyone is ridiculous. I play because it has an engaging rotation with a heavy dose of support thrown in.

There are barely any times that I need to move around to the point that the cast times become an issue. Ravana, Waukkeon, A3...that's just about it. I turn WM off for a bit, then turn it right back on...whoop dee doo. What would you do without WM, do your rotation while running in circles pointlessly? Oh darn, you actually have to pay attention to where you're standing now! The horror!

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

You know, you can just drop WM when you need to move.

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You stop with that sense-making, mister! We need to complain!

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Originally Posted by Makeda

This is a Job-killing change. It makes the point of taking this job over another ranged DPS... pointless.

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It's actually not a job-killing change, you just don't like it. Bards are not in a terrible place in the grand scheme of things. If the only reason you played BRD was to quick strafe left and right or back and forth or perhaps jump up and down, then the class was probably never really much of a draw to you. Sure, WM removed your ability to needlessly flail around in a fight, but you can always turn it off when the time comes to actually need to move.

That's not to say that perhaps something can be done to help BRD's out with a bit of flavour (Really, the immensely short cast times don't really reduce your ability to complete casts to avoid mechanics, so it is flavour) that was lost with the introduction of WM.

Your post was just exaggerative and as such, you're not helping your cause by not addressing your concerns on a realistic level.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

The whole point of making a bard is the ability to move around while playing.

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I never understand when people state this. Being very mobile was a feature of BRD, just like singing songs as support and having great burst/DoTs/AoE have always been (oddly enough, those areas were even further improved). It was just an advantage. If that's why you chose BRD to play, and that was the core feature you were so into BRD for, I'd suggest going to SMN or MCH.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

Bard is much funner now than it was in 2.x. The job wasn't killed, it was vastly improved.!

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Subjective opinion.

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You know, you can just drop WM when you need to move.

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DPS loss, cross class Feint.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

You stop with that sense-making, mister! We need to complain!

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Heh, pretty funny series of events.
Wow, you can't even turn it back on without a cast time! WTF SE, make it so we can stance dance so we don't lose all our deeps when we have to move! We don't even do that much more damage with Minuet on either!
"Alright here's another 10% damage, and now it doesn't have a cast time anymore"
Cast times suck! What is the point of this job??

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

DPS loss, cross class Feint.

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Unless you're losing an empyreal arrow/dropping dots or popping a very high potency oGCD, it is a dps gain.
Finish a cast, drop WM during gcd, heavy shot when GCD is back up, then do WM -> bloodletter or WM -> flaming WM -> sidewinder etc.
150 * .3 = 195 potency from WM HS, or 150 potency HS out of wm + 100p autoattack.
And less TP.

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

Subjective opinion.

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Braindead response to 5% of my post. Howbout commenting on the other 95%.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

Braindead response to 5% of my post. Howbout commenting on the other 95%.

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Because this is the one i have issue with? You can't say that Bard is now more fun full stop. Thats a subjective opinion.

Btw despite feint not being a dps increase when you have to move I still have it xclassed because the 5th slot is generally useless and Feint comes in handy for certain situations of burst where you need to double weave as much shit as possible in a very short time without caring too much about TP, hand of pain in A3s comes to mind.

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

Because this is the one i have issue with? You can't say that Bard is now more fun full stop. Thats a subjective opinion.

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Ok, no more subjective opinions on the forum because the great Katchoo has uttered his divine decree. Except noone is going to listen to it, lol.

Here's an objective fact to tickle your fancy: feint is not a dps increase when you have to move, and the dps lost during the 20 seconds or so during the 3 fights that turning WM off is a good idea is inconsequential to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

You know, you can just drop WM when you need to move.

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If I'm going to be on a bard - I'm always moving. I'm usually moving 95% of the time, standing still only when something locks me in place. I do that when tanking on this character as well. It is how I play and why I chose bard as my DPS alt. Thankfully she's only level 34 - so I can consider a switch out to a melee class.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

Bard is much funner and more engaging and thoughtful now than it was in 2.x, in my opinion. The job wasn't killed, it was vastly improved.

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Frankly I don't care if the rest of it is more fun. The very point of the Job's existence is gone.

It is now a turret. The option for the moving while playing class is removed with this ability.

This is not about the effectiveness of the class or the complexity of the new rotation. Its about the very feel of why one picks this class: moving around all the time. With that gone, it is now just the same as Thaumaturge from a play POV: a stand there and blast stuff class.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

I never understand when people state this. Being very mobile was a feature of BRD,
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It was just an advantage. If that's why you chose BRD to play, and that was the core feature you were so into BRD for, I'd suggest going to SMN or MCH.

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Because everything else is just numbers in the background math calculation. The difference between moving and not moving though - that is something you feel when you play.

To my knowledge, it WAS the only ranged class/Job that felt unique. The rest are just differences in shiny icons and special effects on a math parser.

I've yet to reach Heavensword, so was not aware the MCH was the replacement for the removed Bard playstyle. Just googled it and it looks like that will be my solution...

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

Ok, no more subjective opinions on the forum because the great Katchoo has uttered his divine decree. Except noone is going to listen to it,

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Subjective opinions are fine. if you say "I think Bard is more fun" that great! The thing is its when people say 'BARD IS MORE FUN NOW PERIOD FOR EVERYBODY" and it's funny how many people think that. Maybe that was not your intention but thats how it sounded.

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Here's an objective fact to tickle your fancy: feint is not a dps increase when you have to move, and the dps lost during the 20 seconds or so during the 3 fights that turning WM off is a good idea is inconsequential to begin with.

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Sorry i should have been more clear / read what was written better. I was considering just if you need to doge one thing rather than an extended period like 20 seconds. Thing is stance dancing for one attack sounds good on paper but in reality thats a lot of things you have to do / react to in a very tiny space of time (inb4 get gud scrub)

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

Thing is stance dancing for one attack sounds good on paper but in reality thats a lot of things you have to do / react to in a very tiny space of time (inb4 get bud scrub)

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I personally don't see a design flaw in the idea that you have to ideally manage your class under all circumstances to put out peak damage in all circumstances. It's possible to do, difficult perhaps but that's part of the reason for boss mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I personally don't see a design flaw in the idea that you have to ideally manage your class under all circumstances to put out peak damage in all circumstances. It's possible to do, difficult perhaps but that's part of the reason for boss mechanics.

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Totally agree! In fact will retract my original statement about it being a DPS loss, i was out matched fair and square, failed to take into account your auto attacks.

Stance dancing might be a dps increase, but damn is it hard to weave in on a bard compared to MCH

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

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I mean, you can argue that it's "more difficult" to do, but in reality it's only really tougher if you're flipping off WM WHENEVER POSSIBLE to squeeze in that one autoattack for your super tiny dps increase.

Like, WM can be hotkeyed, and flipping it off for a GCD doesn't require as much reaction time because you can just finish your cast and hit it, the same way you would hit feint, only you have to hit it again to turn it back on during that GCD.
Even then, feint is technically just bad, any fight where resources could be an issue and you're using your most inefficient GCD in terms of potency vs TP cost, unless you count like single target quick nock or something (lol)

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Originally Posted by Makeda

It is now a turret. The option for the moving while playing class is removed with this ability.

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https://youtu.be/wsBX1Yq7lQA

I wouldn't say "turret" or "removed", but I dunno mane ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by aabe

https://youtu.be/wsBX1Yq7lQA

I wouldn't say "turret" or "removed", but I dunno mane ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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I'm in love with this video.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I'm in love with this video.

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I tried to manipulate latency/server updating as little as possible but you can move even more than that, the point was just that you aren't really a turret.

Excuse me for my poor bitrate btw ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by aabe

Like, WM can be hotkeyed, and flipping it off for a GCD doesn't require as much reaction time because you can just finish your cast and hit it, the same way you would hit feint,

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Here is the thing. If you are in a situation where you can finish your cast surly you don't need to turn WM because you can a) Slide during the cast and b) have the rest of your GCD to move.

I think it's more of a situation where you are interrupted by moving and need something quick to bridge the gap.

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Originally Posted by aabe

I tried to manipulate latency/server updating as little as possible but you can move even more than that, the point was just that you aren't really a turret.

Excuse me for my poor bitrate btw ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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I was paying no mind to any problems the video had, was just laughing the whole time xD

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

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Yeah, that is true, I just don't find many times where there are aoes quick enough that I have to stop what I'm doing and feint, and other situations where I have to do that I can kinda-sorta boil down to my own error which is something that you can fix if you're not bad like I am. I put it into good practice in A3 but the movement is a lot more sustained there than elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by aabe

Yeah, that is true, I just don't find many times where there are aoes quick enough that I have to stop what I'm doing and feint, and other situations where I have to do that I can kinda-sorta boil down to my own error which is something that you can fix if you're not bad like I am.

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And this is why i think Feint works, because it's a snap decision that requires no thought and is probably the safer bet. I mean, even if i knew the exact amount of time a AOE was going to be up there is still things like latency to consider that might make i dangerous to not interrupt a cast, say you were doing Savage for example. (just to clarify i'm not arguing the Dance VS Feint damage, you got me there, more discussing the usefulness of Feint)

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Originally Posted by Makeda

If I'm going to be on a bard - I'm always moving. I'm usually moving 95% of the time, standing still only when something locks me in place. I do that when tanking on this character as well. It is how I play and why I chose bard as my DPS alt. Thankfully she's only level 34 - so I can consider a switch out to a melee class.

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So basically you just want to be able to run around in circles while you could stand still ?

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

So basically you just want to be able to run around in circles while you could stand still ?

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That's exaaaactly what she said she wants.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

That's exaaaactly what she said she wants.

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Just checking.

That's not the "core of the feel of the class" bro.

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

Just checking.

That's not the "core of the feel of the class" bro.

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That's what so many people have been saying. It was flavour at best that wasn't even all that lost. They're still very mobile with the short cast times on WM. The problem with people heavily exaggerating aspects of a class is that it creates a mist of hysteria within the community and I feel that's what the Bard ordeal is. I'm not arguing if it's as fun as 2.0, I'm saying that the class is alive and well, and still quite mobile.

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Originally Posted by Sekundessounet

Just checking.

That's not the "core of the feel of the class" bro.

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Cast times feel more thematic, too. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.

Ever try shooting a bow while pointlessly running in circles? It's not easy. Aiming your shot is a much better idea.

I kinda get where people are coming from. Personally, I utterly despise change. Drastic changes make me want to kill the planet. But...WM just plain works. While I feel like we could use some more potency, overall I feel like bard is in a better place now. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

Cast times feel more thematic, too. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.

Every try shooting a bow while pointlessly running in circles? It's not easy. Aiming your shot is a much better idea.

I kinda get where people are coming from. Personally, I utterly despise change. Drastic changes make me want to kill the planet. But...WM just plain works. While I feel like we could use some more potency, overall I feel like bard is in a better place now. IN MY HUMBLE OPINION.

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IMHO GAIZ!

Being mobile was never an aspect of the class to me. What made bard a bard was the actually skills we used(straight shot, bloodletter, venomous bite,windbite etc...), and that wasn't changed at all in HW. In fact, we got some QoL improvements(Iron Jaws) along with some nice new spells. WM doesn't limit us much at all.

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Originally Posted by Geardagas

Ever try shooting a bow while pointlessly running in circles? It's not easy. Aiming your shot is a much better idea.

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This, but, that beign said, the animation is you holding the arrow in the quiver. Change it to a clearly aimed shot and it'll look fine.

Also see my posts about wanderer's being the bard doign a slow dance to their music..

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Originally Posted by Odowla

This, but, that beign said, the animation is you holding the arrow in the quiver. Change it to a clearly aimed shot and it'll look fine.

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This is a bit of a slippery slope lol. One thing that always bothered me about vidya archery is the 'magic quiver' effect. I don't have a magic quiver - my quiver has like 2 arrows in it - and yet I can cast rain of death 15 times in a row and still end up with 2 arrows in my quiver.

This is the only reason I put up with FFXI ranger, because I had to bring my own arrows and it was more realistic. Sure, having like 4000 arrows in your pack didn't make much sense either, but -

You know what, forget this conversation. I'm on the verge of driving myself into an inescapable maze of thematic death.

https://youtu.be/HiVOR5HwbTw

I'd say it's "removed" and "you're a turret", but what do I know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by ganstream1

https://youtu.be/HiVOR5HwbTw

I'd say it's "removed" and "you're a turret", but what do I know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Nobody said that Bards didn't have a minor diminishing of mobility, they just said it's not "turret" like some bards have been crying Bloody Murder about.

The conversation in this thread jumps around quite a bit. At times all people talk about is dps, other times it's mobility. The issue for most of the people that don't like playing hard anymore is better summed up by the clunky implementation of WM. The play style is drastically different, with many of the abilities we used to use regularly hardly fitting cleanly into play.

SE makes excuses about balance issues but before Heavensward was released, dps for bards was seemingly in a fair position. And the argument that it's difficult to properly balance ranged physical is strange due to the fact that mmos have been doing ifor ages with no issues.

If they or any player wanted to make a class that used cast timers on physical attacks, along with having a few support abilities, Machinist was made from the ground up to do that. Bard simply had cast times tacked on with none of the changes to the other abilities that would have made it a smooth experience.

I see a lot of complaints about Bard which made me want to level it and see what the fuss is about. Also the whole "mobility" thing is really the most perplexing thing for a class that can poke the boss from the back of the room to me. Are there are any guides to playing post HW Bard?

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Nobody said that Bards didn't have a minor diminishing of mobility, they just said it's not "turret" like some bards have been crying Bloody Murder about.

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Which makes me think: we had a diminishing of mobility, what did we get in exchange?

It's supposed to be "you'll won't be able to move as much but will have higher damage," when it's acutally "you won't be able to move that much, but you won't lose damage."
Our relative DPS stand compared to other jobs is even worse than before. I used to have ~6% lower DPS compared to the top melee (630 DPS against 590 DPS). Now, I'm at ~20% lower (1300 DPS against 1000 DPS). What's the point of a skill that takes off part of our mobility to keep us at a worse position we were before?

That, and all the other complaints about change of play style, clunkiness, wasted procs. We still have competitive DPS (even more if we can AoE or multi-dot) and groups want us for our songs, but we're not in the same spot we used to be. That's my main concern.