Dragoons: A Rotation Reborn

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Originally Posted by KrystalF

not bad! 660.11 score, a little bit more buuuuuut still 462 accuracy! :P

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I think you're missing 1
the set is 463 on xivdb
also 1 crit, according to your last set

edit: I guess I didn't bother to adjust food and applied the full value

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Originally Posted by Amatsu_Neko

I've noticed to updated the rotation and it has Fracture removed, but no explanation on why. But your 2nd post about DoTs says both are useful but you haven't gotten a chance to update it. Was just curious on why Fracture got removed from the rotation since nothing about it really changed.

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Before, we used Fracture to spend a bit of time because were worried about losing damage by clipping Chaos Thrust. Since 2.1, we can clip Chaos Thrust and it's okay. So it's become better to run a rotation that does more damage than the one with Fracture and runs the risk of clipping Chaos Thrust, because it no longer matters.

So I have been using the FFxiv app to get some dps numbers on turn 5 and garuda ex... I seem to be sitting at around 215-240 dps, depending on how things come together. I don't have a BiS set of gear, but I am sitting at 88 ilvl with a bit too much acc. On the same fights, I am seeing black mages and monks doing closer to 300dps

Doing the most updated rotation from this thread, and hitting 1300 or so on my FT every time all the cooldowns line up.

Am I doing something wrong?

Fight specific DPS numbers are fight specific.

Generally speaking, getting used to the rotation is the general first step. It's like "Dragoon 101".

Every non-trivial fight has various mechanics where you can optimize DPS differently. For example, on Twintania you should be spamming AOEs on the initial wyvern phase, and then on the second half of the snake phase (when you have 4 small snakes together). These optimizations will increase your total DPS. You should also be timing cooldowns for the asclepius burn, including str pots. Synchronizing your cooldowns here will increase your total DPS.

For T5, I parse at around 285-300 depending on RNG. Not really sure what other DRGs parse (I mean, who groups with others of the same class in Coil?).


Garuda EX is a very melee-unfriendly fight, and the damage parses can vary greatly based on multiple factors. If whoever has the spiny during the wisp phases gets the hell out of the stack early, then you get much more AOE damage output. If the DRG has BFB up at that time (they should), and has DFD up at those times (they should half the time), then the DRG can gain significantly padded AOE damage. BLMs in general will have a similar result.

Conversely, if the tanks have a hard time positioning adds, melee DPS can drop. If the DRG does not have balls of steel / does not know how to deal with wicked wheel, the DRG DPS can drop.

Overall, with all the downtime between phases, Garuda parses for a DRG should end up in the 200-260 range. Tbh, I find the 300 dps BLM on Garuda unlikely, unless the wisp phases were very clean and the BLM was the only one throwing out AOEs.


In terms of raw "are you pressing 12345", the best static single target fights are Atomos in CT or ADS2 Enrage in Coil. Cad also works in Coil except Bards and Summoners can multi-dot effectively, increasing their DPS "artificially" over single target comparisons. Personally I run at 325-350 on Atomos, 330-335 on ADS2 Enrage, and 310-320 on Cad.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Fight specific DPS numbers are fight specific -and stuff

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I totally agree, Twintania is awful to check your DPS on. How many times were you the target for conflag, did you get to AoE snakes, did you get targeted for stun locks, and so on. Do your rotations and use your buffs/debuffs as the fight allows and there is nothing to worry about. If it isn't your DPS suffering it will be someone else's, but it's always someone's.

Mhmm, I'm still looking to see if there's an alternative BiS. I'm sure we can get more DPS going DET based.

If you don't have some steady high % of crit rating, why would you invest into crit damage ? You'd effectively increase your dps in pure burst encounters only and that kind of fight simply isn't the majority in FFXIV ARR. Optimal would be to run 2 kinds of set, one beein extremely det based with IR used differently for short fights (last boss in AK, 1st in HM / CM HM, that kind of fights), and the BiS for long encounters

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Personally I run at 325-350 on Atomos, 330-335 on ADS2 Enrage, and 310-320 on Cad.

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Just a couple of questions on your ADS Enrage dps. Is that with your group going left? Also, are you still flanking, getting in IDC combos, etc? I'm curious as my group always goes to the right for the enrage method and forbids everyone from moving once the ADS starts his enrage phase (we all stack on the tank).

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

Just a couple of questions on your ADS Enrage dps. Is that with your group going left? Also, are you still flanking, getting in IDC combos, etc? I'm curious as my group always goes to the right for the enrage method and forbids everyone from moving once the ADS starts his enrage phase (we all stack on the tank).

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There honestly isn't any reason to just stack like that; all you have to avoid is going out of heal range (which is pretty large for Medica/2 and Succor, especially if the heals are near ADS...is the WHM only using Cure 3?)

I'd also assume left, since that Piercing debuff on the right just kills our DPS...

Yeah we went left and "not moving" sounds idiotic. The only complexity is that the healers will eventually pull aggro so you have to watch for ADS turning and dodging your HT/IDs, especially if the tank tries to fight it (tell them not to bother).

So, for anyone who's been reading the detailed comments when I've posted stat weights and gear sets, and/or otherwise perusing the rest of the forum, determination has been somewhat of a ? mark for awhile. The original work by valk from beta resulted in a damage formula that most people have been using for awhile. This damage formula has been known to "undervalue" determination by some amount.

Recent work has been done to get a more accurate damage formula. Currently, I posted a pretty good approximation in the other thread (note: it is not the *actual* damage formula, which Eien and others are still working on, but it's reasonably close to actual results for a wide range of stats).

In sum, new damage formula with more better DTR representation results in new stat weights and new/old gear. The note on these weights: they probably won't change much even with a "true" final damage formula.

Stat weights (per point);

WD 8.488
STR 1.000
DTR 0.323
CRT 0.184
SS 0.152

Item budget weights (stat weights scaled to expected gear amounts - secondary stats):

DTR 3.55 (this is DTR stat weight * 11)
CRT 2.95 (CRT*16)
SS 2.43 (SS*16)

Absolute "best in set" for 482 acc:

HQ Buttons
Myth Belt
Allagan Boots
Myth Bracelet
Myth Chest
Allagan Earring Maiming
Myth Gloves*
Myth Helm
Allagan Leggings
Allagan Necklace Maiming
Allagan Ring Striking
Allagan Ring Maiming
Allagan Weapon

This is basically a DTR-optimized set of gear.

I think there was a tool someone else posted where you could input your weights and constraints -- you can use that for other optimized gear sets (for example, using HQ Eggs, or for 472 acc, or for no acc, pre-T5, etc).


* Yes the Myth gloves are basically bad with the skill speed sink on them, where you could trade for acc from the Allagan. This result is because there's a complex set of acc tradeoffs between item slots that does make this optimal. However, due to the exact #s of acc across Dragoon items, if you lower the threshold to 481 acc, that series of tradeoffs is reversed and you get a more intuitive "Allagan Glove, Allagan Helm" situation. The 481-482 threshold occurs frequently for the gear set thing. It would be nice if the gloves had 16 acc, not 15.

Thanks for the work EasyModeX. If you're using a script for that, may you run it for 472 ACC?
It has been discussed before in this thread that the "482 acc needed for T5" seems to be more a rumor than a proven fact. All those who runned with 472 acc on T5 weren't able to get a miss (or I'm the one who missed a post on this topic), so I'd like to see a BiS set aiming for 472 ACC instead of 482.
I'll try to make that list myself, but a script will always beat me at this "game".

Thank you again EMX. What about Pre-Turn 5 BiS? We're basically going back to the first version that was posted in OT?

T5 472 (ends up at 476)

HQ Buttons
Myth Belt
Allagan Boots
Myth Bracelet
Myth Chest
EX Titan Earring Striking
Allagan Gloves
Myth Helm
Allagan Leggings
Myth Necklace
Allagan Ring Striking
Allagan Ring Maiming
Allagan Weapon

Pre-5 482 (485)

HQ Buttons
Myth Belt
Myth Boots
Myth Bracelet
Myth Chest
EX Titan Earring Striking
Allagan Gloves
Allagan Helm
Allagan Leggings
Allagan Necklace Striking
Allagan Ring Striking
Myth Ring
Myth Weapon

Pre-5 472 (475)

HQ Buttons
Allagan Belt
Myth Boots
Myth Bracelet
Myth Chest
EX Titan Earring Striking
Allagan Gloves
Allagan Helm
Allagan Leggings
Allagan Necklace Striking
Allagan Ring Maiming
Myth Ring
Myth Weapon

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Snip

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Thanks a bunch for your work!

I'd like to note that it seems that chest remains the most valuable investment of myth tomes, as I think it is in every known BiS set at this point. Assuming you're worried about gearing up multiple jobs, this is pretty much the must buy for DRG.

I'd say myth belt and helm are the next most valuable investment of myth tomes, as they are in a whole lot of BiS sets as well.

Disclaimer: as always, if you have an available allagan drop, take the damn thing, and adjust your gear accordingly, if needed. Main stat always wins.

Any stat weight that says X is valued at X is incorrect.
The value of each stat in relation to current DPS changes based on current values of other stats.

Basically, the more Det you have, the less it is worth as a % increase of your total DPS.

The math is a bit more complicated then people have been doing for weights.

maybe a bit off-topic, but is there a chance you could let us know how the new determination info affects monk stat weights?

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The value of each stat in relation to current DPS changes based on current values of other stats.

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Yes, but they don't change much. The weights I posted use a baseline of "near-BiS" to start with.
The only meaningful shift of stats where it would be worth resetting the weights or otherwise getting more complicated with the representation of the weights would be a SS-optimized build, since SS scales with itself. Problem: that's a terrible strategic approach anyways.

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Basically, the more Det you have, the less it is worth as a % increase of your total DPS.

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Not really. The more DTR you have, the more valuable CRT/SS (and other stats become). Ironically the weight of DTR in relation to STR remains the same.

Basically you would need a ballpark of >700 DTR before CRT and SS are enhanced to the point where CRT could match DTR for item budget value. There are probably random gear selection tradeoffs that would change earlier, but you're still looking at DTR way beyond current item levels.

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The math is a bit more complicated then people have been doing for weights

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You don't even know what math 'people have been doing' for weights, so you should probably relax.

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Originally Posted by Staris

Any stat weight that says X is valued at X is incorrect.
The value of each stat in relation to current DPS changes based on current values of other stats.

Basically, the more Det you have, the less it is worth as a % increase of your total DPS.

The math is a bit more complicated then people have been doing for weights.

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The damage throughput provided by the stat doesn't differ much at all when stacking it to w/e your goal is. BUT the higher one stat is the interaction between it an other stats plays a key role so for example... The more DET you have the Higher Crit will be worth stat weight wise same goes for the reversal, what does need to occur is to find that balance around hit cap and maximising both stats.

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Originally Posted by ziddyt

maybe a bit off-topic, but is there a chance you could let us know how the new determination info affects monk stat weights?

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MNK:

WD 8.321
STR 1
DTR 0.329
CRT 0.163
SS 0.157

BRD:

WD 8.683
DEX 1.000
DTR 0.314
CRT 0.269
SS 0.126

Thank's a bunch EasymodeX. Live saver you are!

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...oon-set-Solver

That's the thread; though the solver doesn't work for me, not one bit. Sad times.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

There honestly isn't any reason to just stack like that; all you have to avoid is going out of heal range (which is pretty large for Medica/2 and Succor, especially if the heals are near ADS...is the WHM only using Cure 3?)

I'd also assume left, since that Piercing debuff on the right just kills our DPS...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Yeah we went left and "not moving" sounds idiotic. The only complexity is that the healers will eventually pull aggro so you have to watch for ADS turning and dodging your HT/IDs, especially if the tank tries to fight it (tell them not to bother).

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Thanks. I mean we still kill ADS either way, but didn't make much sense to me to go right with only one BLM in group composition (typically drg, mnk or brd, brd, blm) or have us all stack on the tank during the enrage. Piercing resistance + no HT/IDC combo = non existant dps. Tried to tell the that...so i'll ignore them this week.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

Thanks. I mean we still kill ADS either way, but didn't make much sense to me to go right with only one BLM in group composition (typically drg, mnk or brd, brd, blm) or have us all stack on the tank during the enrage. Piercing resistance + no HT/IDC combo = non existant dps. Tried to tell the that...so i'll ignore them this week.

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Also makes more sense to bring a PLD and only one BRD for silence, since you'll get a faster LB build, if your group has the flexibility to switch jobs of course. One of my group's tanks only has tank jobs leveled, so as not to leave him out on T2, we let him switch to his choice of Marauder in full STR (crafted & melded) gear, and he hilariously does very decent damage... Like.. regrettably good damage.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

Also makes more sense to bring a PLD and only one BRD for silence, since you'll get a faster LB build, if your group has the flexibility to switch jobs of course. One of my group's tanks only has tank jobs leveled, so as not to leave him out on T2, we let him switch to Marauder in full STR (crafted & melded) gear, and he hilariously does very decent damage... Like.. regrettably good damage.

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My Coil group seems to be constantly fielding new people. There's a few of us that have multiple geared 50s that we switch our roles depending on who shows up. We try not to double up, but it happens.


Edit : I've yet to see a single piece of allagan armor drop for dragoon. Always seems to be healer or blm/smn gear each week with a maybe the odd melee or tank accessory thrown in.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

Edit : I've yet to see a single piece of allagan armor drop for dragoon. Always seems to be healer or blm/smn gear each week with a maybe the odd melee or tank accessory thrown in.

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I got an allagan drop for my BLM (2nd job) first try, and still zero drops for my DRG. Although I've only been running coil for about 4-5 weeks.

I've also only seen one DRG drop in CT so far, the damn belt, which I don't need coz I have Hero's. On Sunday nights, I'll just take whatever drops on my last run. Consequently, I have 3 pieces of BRD peppermint gear..... My archer is level 15, FML.

I think we're being punished for the multitude of drops that DRG was receiving in Coil early on in 2.0. I'm going to start collecting MNK CT gear if I keep having this luck, coz MNK stuff looks SWEET! I pretty much see all BRD and MNK gear go to the trash.. Last night, all 4 pieces of dropped gear went to the trash. Compared to the difficulty of gear acquisition in the rest of this game, I think CT lotting needs to be fixed..... It's HARDER to get lvl80 gear than it is 90, haha.

Okay, I've fixed the solver from the original creator, and I've also updated it to include the newest gear. Here's what it spat out for 472 acc, no Food.

Score with new Stat Weights: 689.89

Weapon: Allagan Spear
Head: Wyrm's Armet
Chest: Wyrm's Mail
Gloves: Allagan Gauntlets of Maiming
Waist: Hero's Belt of Maiming
Legs: Allagan Trousers of Maiming
Boots: Allagan Sollerets of maiming
Necklace: Hero's Necklace of Slaying
Bracelet: Hero's Bracelet of Slaying
Earrings: Tremor Earrings of Striking
Ring1: Allagan Ring of Striking
Ring2: Allagan Ring of Maiming

Accuracy: 476 (total)
Critical Hit Rate: 77
Skill Speed: 27
Determination: 151

Gunna rerun it in a second with 468 accuracy, so we can use Button Mushroom Sautes to reach 472 and see if it gives higher DPS over this set.

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Accuracy: 475 (total)

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I'm showing 476.

belt - 16
bracelet - 11
glove - 15
helm - 21
legging - 34
neck - 11
ring - 16, 11
base - 341

What is the difference?

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

I'm showing 476.

belt - 16
bracelet - 11
glove - 15
helm - 21
legging - 34
neck - 11
ring - 16, 11
base - 341

What is the difference?

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Thanks for noticing the typo

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Originally Posted by Dervy

Gunna rerun it in a second with 468 accuracy, so we can use Button Mushroom Sautes to reach 472 and see if it gives higher DPS over this set.

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Do it for 463 instead, it'll be better to have lower native accuracy from gear and use food to push it higher for T5. We still don't know what the cap is for T5 anyway, and I highly doubt it's 472, but we'll use that as the T5 ceiling for now.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Stat weights (per point);

WD 8.488
STR 1.000
DTR 0.323
CRT 0.184
SS 0.152

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Thanks for the work as usual, I always knew DTR had it in him!! ha; but on a sad note I am now back down to only 4 best in slot pieces on my char. Damn Allagan never drops for DRG :(

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Do it for 463 instead, it'll be better to have lower native accuracy from gear and use food to push it higher for T5. We still don't know what the cap is for T5 anyway, and I highly doubt it's 472, but we'll use that as the T5 ceiling for now.

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Yes This Please

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Pre-5 482 (485)

Myth Belt
Myth Boots
Myth Bracelet
Myth Chest
EX Titan Earring Striking
Allagan Gloves
Allagan Helm
Allagan Leggings
Allagan Necklace Striking
Allagan Ring Striking
Myth Ring
Myth Weapon

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Hey EMX, you don't happen to remember the DPS weight you get with that? I'm running my script and getting the same results as you have up top but only with the following two items swapped:

Instead of the Myth waist I have the Allagan waist. Also instead of the Allagan Striking Ring I have the Allagan Maiming ring. The total weight including hq deviled eggs I get is 678.565. Were these lists not factoring in food?

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Originally Posted by Crush3r07

Yes This Please

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I just ran my script for 482ACC and 463ACC and this is what I get Pre and Post Turn 5.

Order below is the following:
Weapon Head Body Hands Legs Feet Waist Necklace Earring Bracelet Ring Ring2

disclaimer: I should clarify the below results are factoring in HQ Deviled Eggs

482ACC (485)
Pre Turn 5
Relic+1
Allagan
Myth
Allagan
Allagan
Myth
Allagan
Allagan Striking
Tremor
Myth
Myth
Allagan Maiming
678.565

463ACC
Pre Turn 5
Relic+1
Allagan
Myth
Myth
Allagan
Myth
Myth
Allagan Striking
Tremor
Allagan Striking
Myth
Allagan Maiming
681.524

482ACC (485)
Turn 5
Allagan
Allagan
Myth
Allagan
Allagan
Allagan
Myth
Allagan Maiming
Allagan Maiming
Myth
Allagan Striking
Allagan Maiming
693.796

463ACC
Turn 5
Allagan
Myth
Myth
Allagan
Allagan
Allagan
Myth
Allagan Striking
Tremor
Allagan Maiming
Allagan Striking
Allagan Maiming
697.757

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

Hey EMX, you don't happen to remember the DPS weight you get with that?

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679.98

# includes HQ buttons. 673.27 without food.

Note: I used an assumed hardcoded value for food, so it is not dynamic and may differ from yours.

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Instead of the Myth waist I have the Allagan waist. Also instead of the Allagan Striking Ring I have the Allagan Maiming ring. The total weight including hq deviled eggs I get is 678.565. Were these lists not factoring in food?

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Buttons > Eggs.

Oh, I forgot to list Buttons for the last 3 I posted.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

679.98

# includes HQ buttons. 673.27 without food.

Note: I used an assumed hardcoded value for food, so it is not dynamic and may differ from yours.



Buttons > Eggs.

Oh, I forgot to list Buttons for the last 3 I posted.

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Ahh I see you are hardcoding food values, The way I am doing it is dynamically with completely rounding down basically floor the decimal value. So it has been determined the extra DPS weight from buttons now outweighs the 7-9 points of accuracy from eggs? I'll have to adjust my script to use buttons then if so.

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

snip

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I'm only seeing the 463 accuracy sets hitting 433 accuracy, can you double check the numbers for me. I see 341 accuracy with 92 added from gear (15+34+16+16+11 from hands, legs, waist and both rings respectively)

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

Ahh I see you are hardcoding food values, The way I am doing it is dynamically with completely rounding down basically floor the decimal value. So it has been determined the extra DPS weight from buttons now outweighs the 7-9 points of accuracy from eggs? I'll have to adjust my script to use buttons then if so.

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Should be easy enough to compare. Run one list with buttons and gear at cap, and one with gear below cap using eggs to hit it, then compare the weights.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

I'm only seeing the 463 accuracy sets hitting 433 accuracy, can you double check the numbers for me. I see 341 accuracy with 92 added from gear (15+34+16+16+11 from hands, legs, waist and both rings respectively)

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Post Turn 5 listed below:
Accuracy +
0 allagan weapon
21 myth head
0 myth body
15 allagan hands
34 allagan legs
0 allagan feet
16 myth waist
0 allagan striking necklace
0 tremor EX earring
0 allagan maiming bracelet
16 allagan striking ring
11 allagan maiming ring

For a total of 113 from gear, then add 341 base and 9 from hq eggs to get 463. Let me check the pre turn 5 one real quick

It's not overly complicated. Accuracy is worth whatever you trade it for. In this model we try our best to trade acc for skill speed. In some cases, acc for crit, and in the rarest cases acc for dtr.

Picking crit as an average, HQ Eggs caps at 24 crt, 10 acc (crt). This is 34*.184 = 6.26.

Buttons caps at 16 dtr and 10 crt, which is 7.01. Although I think with normal base stats, buttons will only be 9 crt, and eggs would be lower at like 22-23 crt. Also egg acc would be ~9. Shrug.


If I use a dynamic calculation then I have to run a GRG Nonlinear solve which takes about a billion times longer than a simplex linear solve, and isn't even necessarily accurate (but should be because solving for this isn't exactly difficult). If I use a hardcoded value for food then the error is at least localized to the food.

So I just manually override food with buttons and run a linear solver from there.

Edit:

And as Ayvar said, I run it once with each food as override and compare the final #s. They are accurate within the "hardcoded value food error" which is like ... 1 acc + 1 crt or something at most.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Should be easy enough to compare. Run one list with buttons and gear at cap, and one with gear below cap using eggs to hit it, then compare the weights.

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yeah it is no problem, i do that too in my spreadsheet. However in my script I actually optimize with food factored in dynamically so as to get the true result. In most cases the two results will be the same but sometimes it is not.

Either way its a quick little code modification, I'll try to put it together as soon as I can; stuck at work right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AugustusSB

For a total of 113 from gear, then add 341 base and 9 from hq eggs to get 463. Let me check the pre turn 5 one real quick

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I see the problem. 1) I missed that you were using the myth head, thought it was allagan. 2) You want to hit 463 with gear alone, not using food. The accuracy food is to hit 472 for T5 only.