What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I have mixed feelings about 5.3. On the one hand, I like how they essentially mirrored a WoL in him, with how he's willing to endure any pain and suffering, even to the loss of his identity, to bring his duty to completion. I think Elidibus is by far one of the most heroic personas in the story, alongside Hades, in how they would both labour for 12k years, in near complete desolation, playing the role of villain as necessary, to rectify what they saw as a great injustice done to their kind. However, I was somewhat let down by how they concluded his focus on the balance of dark and light and jettisoned him from his more conciliatory Emissary stance, which as you say went to Emet.

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Looking back, I was kind of taken aback at how his personality seemed to change in 5.3 because I had always seen Elidibus is calm and collected compared to Lahabrea and the others. Then I figured maybe we would end up needing to work with him to keep balance because of part of Lahabrea’s speech in the Praetorium. But the way they handled him just seemed so wrong to me.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

And then after the trial we get Elidibus's soul to pop up and lecture Venat on how she gave up hope on them all and robbed them of a chance to even properly pass Hermes's stupid "test", and... Wait no sorry, that's my unwritten AU fanfic.

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If you ever write any fanfics I would low key probably read them lmao drop a link if you ever do xD

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

It was the story equivalent of getting wasted, then waking up in bed with an ogre next to you that you thought was beautiful at the time. Very easy to get swept up in the music, though there were some moments that got me. And speaking of characters who were wasted/forgotten, what about Regula van Hydrus? The man who was the equivalent of General Leo from FFVI, the emperor's best friend since childhood, who sacrificed himself for a boy? No mention, but I haven't gotten around to the Garlemald sidequests yet... Also, lots of mourning for Moenbryda, but nothing about Nabriales, the man that she sacrificed herself to stop. Even Emet-Selch left him out (and poor Deudalaphon who may as well not exist) in his quick rundown of the Convocation seats in Elpis. Poor lads.

Also, your brain lasted longer than mine. I was practically comatose and beseeching Ra-La by the 23rd 2000-word Scion speech about the better brighter tomorrow, stand tall my friend, hope hope hopey hope hope.

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Not so much as a word for poor Regula.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

And preferably actually involving Gaius, Cid and Nero.

No, I'm serious here. I like Maxima and Lucia, but... OH come on!

I am especially offended by Nero not getting a single voiced line, in fact having literally less presence than (checks notes) Livia and Rhitahtyn. Actually, did anyone else find that dungeon weird? I mean I have no issue with the choice of end boss, if we're gonna die on this Fandaniel hill then let us die on it, but why Livia and Rhitahtyn?? We had Ilberd and Papalymo in a trash pack, and then we saw Moenbryda and Haurchefant. So, then... why not Nabriales and Charibert, right?

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I was surprised Yotsuyu didn't complete the Amon/Fandaniel duo to form a trio of spite.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Looking back, I was kind of taken aback at how his personality seemed to change in 5.3 because I had always seen Elidibus is calm and collected compared to Lahabrea and the others. Then I figured maybe we would end up needing to work with him to keep balance because of part of Lahabrea’s speech in the Praetorium. But the way they handled him just seemed so wrong to me.

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Indeed, that's where I thought they'd tie it all together, especially because the writers have gone on record saying the current state of the world (=broken into shards) is bad depending on your perspective, and already unstable. And we sort of saw this with what would've happened if the Source had perished.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Looking back, I was kind of taken aback at how his personality seemed to change in 5.3 because I had always seen Elidibus is calm and collected compared to Lahabrea and the others. Then I figured maybe we would end up needing to work with him to keep balance because of part of Lahabrea’s speech in the Praetorium. But the way they handled him just seemed so wrong to me.

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Am of the same mind regarding Elidibus, that white-robed Ascian who was supposed to be different from the rest. Then he sort of just took over Lahabrea's role after the breadman died, and Emet-Selch seemed to usurp his role. I'd hoped we would use that power-of-friendship trope to reach out to this man who really was not much different from us, even if he was forced to do some pretty monstrous things in our pov. Why couldn't we weaken him, then use the stones to remind him of who he once was, and have him be an ally of sorts and we'd figure out a way to rejoin without Calamities? This isn't that kind of story, though, unfortunately.

The 'power of friendship' is used only to kill, not actually to win the hearts and minds of those different from us. But hey, at least the funny cheeseburger earwiggle shinyeyes cat got not just one, but two Unsundered kills, and wasn't bothered at all at the idea of ending these ancient beyond our mortal comprehension lives even if it was a kill-or-be-killed situation.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I am so glad this thread is making me feel... sane? I resonate so very much with the viewpoints of KizuyaKatogami, Lauront and Rulakir. It's just incredibly comforting to know I'm not alone, especially when talking about a story I was so invested into for the last 5 years. For the past 2 months I feel like my mind has done nothing but incoherently rant about Endwalker, which often felt like screaming into the void. (I wonder how many of us who are vocally disappointed in EW are Ascian fans?)

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I have been one since ARR, back when I thought they might go in a more Sith direction for them. I was even more engrossed by SHB when they introduced their ancient history. I've never really cared much for the protagonists in this game. I only really play because I enjoy the Ascians and Garleans, the latter of which I was hoping they'd eventually take in a more Archades-style direction.

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Originally Posted by Skyborne

Am of the same mind regarding Elidibus, that white-robed Ascian who was supposed to be different from the rest. Then he sort of just took over Lahabrea's role after the breadman died, and Emet-Selch seemed to usurp his role. I'd hoped we would use that power-of-friendship trope to reach out to this man who really was not much different from us, even if he was forced to do some pretty monstrous things in our pov. Why couldn't we weaken him, then use the stones to remind him of who he once was, and have him be an ally of sorts and we'd figure out a way to rejoin without Calamities? This isn't that kind of story, though, unfortunately. But hey, at least the funny cheeseburger earwiggle shinyeyes cat got not just one, but two Unsundered kills, and wasn't bothered at all at the idea of ending these ancient beyond our mortal comprehension lives even if it was a kill-or-be-killed situation.

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Yeah, I was also hoping they'd do something in that direction with EW, especially since the shards don't really add much other stars couldn't IMO, and I'm not keen on leaving the Source split... until EW went and killed all the other stars we know of. :`)

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Actually, did anyone else find that dungeon weird? I mean I have no issue with the choice of end boss, if we're gonna die on this Fandaniel hill then let us die on it, but why Livia and Rhitahtyn?? We had Ilberd and Papalymo in a trash pack, and then we saw Moenbryda and Haurchefant. So, then... why not Nabriales and Charibert, right?

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I hate that dungeon for that reason. Livia and Rhitatyn, again? How many times can you beat those dead horses? Literally, we've had encounters against some remembrance of them for the last 2 expansions. SB had them in a certain job quest, SHB had them in that instance with Elidibus. It wasn't even that long ago, it was during the patches. They're an overused go-to guilt-trip of the people we've killed. When I stepped in I was expecting Ilberd to be a boss too... and then he's in one of the first trash packs. "Well there goes that".

Btw I slap Minfilia every time I run that dungeon.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Looking back, I was kind of taken aback at how his personality seemed to change in 5.3 because I had always seen Elidibus is calm and collected compared to Lahabrea and the others. Then I figured maybe we would end up needing to work with him to keep balance because of part of Lahabrea’s speech in the Praetorium. But the way they handled him just seemed so wrong to me.

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Honestly same, I mostly coped with it by headcanoning that losing both original Zodiark summoners that were still alive seriously damaged him and drove him to become more desperate.

But mostly I was banking on 5.3 Elidibus being only a "first chapter" to be concluded in the grand finale of this 10-year saga of Hydaelyn and Zodiark.

Uuuuhhhhhhhh yeah

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Originally Posted by Teraq

- I thought this expansion was going to be about Hydaelyn and Zodiark? As it turns out, it's about Hydaelyn and The Sound. Zodiark was literally just an afterthought, a plot device to usher in the real plot. I keep seeing people say that making Zodiark more of a presence at all (or even just a more glorified fight than the level 83 trial, but I digress) would have been "predictable" and that they "subverted expectations", to which I would ask: is "subverting expectations" supposed to be a good thing when you hype something up for years? Does "predictable" have to mean bad and boring rather than a logical and satisfying climax? Perhaps people who argue this simply do not care this much about Zodiark and the Ascians. Fine enough, we all have different opinions on characters, but I just wish the writers did care more.

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Something that may have sat better with me and done a better job subverting expectations would have been to see them come together and draw on both their power to ultimately save the world. They also had an excellent opportunity with the origins of the High Seraph from Orbonne for a potential backstory to the sound, considering the traits of this mysterious otherworldly being... I think the theme of despair worked, but it could've been woven better into something like the Creator from IV: The After Years.

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- As a conclusion of sorts, I will bring up this anecdote of my reaction to getting the Endsinger in trial roulette: it's undeniably epic and gorgeous, and it feels good as a fight. It feels unambiguously good and awesome, because you are literally kicking the personification of cosmic despair in the face with the power of hope, love, friendship and Calvinball. It's a much more fist-pumping moment than watching a man desperately flail at you because you are using against him the power that broke his world, erased his entire civilisation from History and in-all-but-name killed everyone he knew and loved, then quietly accepts defeat and asks you, the barely-recognisable remnant of his veryveryvery good friend (polite cough), to remember them as he fades away. It's also a much more fist-pumping moment than mercy killing the little brother figure neither you nor he remembers, as he dies remembering all the people that put their faith in him whom he could never save.
It just feels shallow.

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I personally hated it. It just felt like a parody fight that was trying way too hard, almost like gcbtw: the trial, especially with her flailing impotently for 35% or so of the fight. At least it suggests dynamis isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially since she had swallowed multiple worlds' worth of despair. But you're right, at least it sits differently because for me, there's zero real regret involved with bringing her low. Just wish her creator could be scrubbed out of the art at the end.

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It feels like the story is gaslighting me about Venat and Hermes in particular to sweep under the rug the balanced, shades-of-grey Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict presented in Shadowbringers to not-so-subtly present Live-Laugh-Love's genocide in a much better light, like the writers are telling me "see? The Ascians didn't have this much of a point, because they were pretty bad and never had any hope against Meteion". We wouldn't want to feel too bad for them after all, would we?

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If they thought that'd work, they are very mistaken. ;)

(Just finished your post... it resonates a lot with me in terms of the aspects of EW I disliked...)

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I've never really cared much for the protagonists in this game. I only really play because I enjoy the Ascians and Garleans, the latter of which I was hoping they'd eventually take in a more Archades-style direction.

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It’s like the devs made the other side seem more interesting and engaging to me. So then when I compared them to the company I was forced to travel with, the scions just felt either boring or annoying to me. But I wasn’t just annoyed at the scions…I was also annoyed and disappointed with myself as the WoL/WoD. I just go along with whatever they want me to do and hardly seem to ever question anything. When I *do* question or comment on something I then just shrug it off and keep doing what I’m good at doing which is being a weapon for the protagonist side.

So now the game has taken this group of people (the ascians) that I want to keep learning more about and literally does everything they can to have me kill every last one of them while constantly trying to enforce the message that I had no choice. Then they pretty much hand hold me through the expansion like “this is the message of the expansion. See this person was right all along and you’re on the right side and don’t forget life is meaningless but make sure to have hope and live anyway. Ok let’s wrap up this ascian and hydaelyn/zodiark stuff. Uh and…let’s throw Zenos in for a final fight.”

Yeah no thanks lol

Interrupting the echo chamber rq.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

A lot of your post is speculation and headcanon supported by very little. For example, we don’t even know if Venat told the ancients of Meteion. We don’t even entirely know if she told her followers, they just knew that Zodiark wasn’t a permanent solution.

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Oh come on. Really? They just happened to agree completely that Zodiark isn’t a perfect solution? Enough to argue against the Convocation? When we have Venat say word for word that she’s going to bring those who can be trusted “into the fold?”

You’re stretching believability for the sake of your own headcanon.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

We don’t even know if they knew of the sundering or that they would be sacrificed, as in the Anamnesis cutscene, they only lament the loss of Venat.

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They lament her having to be the heart, a job that requires one to remain conscious and able for millennia, as opposed to being asleep. Yes they were sad she had to suffer.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

As far as the sundered being more durable than Elidibus or Emet etc. I really not sure how you came to that conclusion. We needed higher up entirety help everytime we fought against them lol. Venat is, in the end, a hypocrite and a liar.

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Prove either. Or wait let me guess. You’re gonna post that convo in Heavensward regarding Hydaelyn and Zodiark again aren’t you? And just completely ignore three expansions of context. Yknow what, fine let’s make it a rule that if a character does anything like that scene, we can’t trust their words ever again. Let’s see how many sources of information we have left.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

She preaches about suffering and hope, yet she inflicted mass amounts of suffering on her own people and gave up hope on them.

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How many times must it be said that she doesn’t distinguish her people and the Unsundered like you do. She describes both the unsundered and the sundered as being humanity.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Her confronting the ancients after the final days already hit means very little. She could have prevented the event altogether.

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How.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Instead she kept quiet, lied, and let it all happen from what we’ve seen. She was friends with Emet, an incredibly intelligent individual. You mean to tell me the two of them couldn’t have figured something out? If Hermes is a problem Pandemonium exists for the time being. There were numerous ways she could have gone about it.

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Just throw Hermes in Pandaemonium, which is on fire atm, that’ll be great. Surely no problem will emerge when he’s needed to summon Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Interrupting the echo chamber rq.



Oh come on. Really? They just happened to agree completely that Zodiark isn’t a perfect solution? Enough to argue against the Convocation? When we have Venat say word for word that she’s going to bring those who can be trusted “into the fold?”

You’re stretching believability for the sake of your own headcanon.



They lament her having to be the heart, a job that requires one to remain conscious and able for millennia, as opposed to being asleep. Yes they were sad she had to suffer.



Prove either. Or wait let me guess. You’re gonna post that convo in Heavensward regarding Hydaelyn and Zodiark again aren’t you? And just completely ignore three expansions of context. Yknow what, fine let’s make it a rule that if a character does anything like that scene, we can’t trust their words ever again. Let’s see how many sources of information we have left.



How many times must it be said that she doesn’t distinguish her people and the Unsundered like you do. She describes both the unsundered and the sundered as being humanity.



How.



Just throw Hermes in Pandaemonium, which is on fire atm, that’ll be great. Surely no problem will emerge when he’s needed to summon Zodiark.

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They may not needed to summon Zodiark had she informed them of the threat BEFOREHAND. I’ve already given numerous examples of “how” she could have prevented the event. Considering how much you respond to me i’d assume you have my posts memorized by now, otherwise a brief summary. Tell Emet, a very intelligent man. Start honing their dynamis skills, using the facility that allows them to do just that. Step 3:Profit the end. I'd also like to request we dnot refer to other peoples opinions on the story as an "echo chamber." Seems a bit derogatory.

They absolutely needed Hermes for Zodiark... in spite of creations being very much their specialty, and particularly that of Lahabrea. They absolutely needed him to understand the celestial currents... in spite of there being other experts on this self-same topic.

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How many times must it be said that she doesn’t distinguish her people and the Unsundered like you do. She describes both the unsundered and the sundered as being humanity.

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Yeah totally, doesn't distinguish.

https://i.imgur.com/BScIw8i.png

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They may not needed to summon Zodiark had she informed them of the threat BEFOREHAND. I’ve already given numerous examples of “how” she could have prevented the event. Considering how much you respond to me i’d assume you have my posts memorized by now, otherwise a brief summary. Tell Emet, a very intelligent man. Start honing their dynamis skills, using the facility that allows them to do just that. Step 3:Profit the end

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I respond so often because your posts are so often unsourced and inaccurate. Stop that and maybe I won’t feel the need to argue.

And by all means, explain how a man who didn’t know of Dynamis at all is supposed to come up with a counteract. Tell me how beings that couldn’t hear Meteions cries could fight against a being of pure Dynamis. Let’s hear it.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

They absolutely needed Hermes for Zodiark... in spite of creations being very much their specialty, and particularly that of Lahabrea. They absolutely needed him to understand the celestial currents... in spite of there being other experts on this self-same topic.


Yeah totally, doesn't distinguish.

https://i.imgur.com/BScIw8i.png

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Every rectangle a square but not all squares are rectangles is a difficult concept I know.

But sure let’s talk clear examples.

https://i.imgur.com/xpAX2fX.jpg

“Our journey” doesn’t exactly scream “we’re different groups of people.”

And in Elpis she repeatedly uses “we” when discussing our plans for what to do next, referring to her and us.

And there’s this.

https://i.imgur.com/58cYMnP.jpg

And this

https://i.imgur.com/qwe0r30.jpg

But yeah totally no reason to think the sundered and unsundered were both equally human and part of the same group.

Aha. Anyway, you keep at it with your attempt at lore-policing. I'd sooner have a conversation with a brick wall.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Aha. Anyway, you keep at it with your attempt at lore-policing. I'd sooner have a conversation with a brick wall.

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I can attest to what that’s like given our previous conversations.

So anyway. For those who stick around, can’t imagine how they’re going to transition to the next chapter of the new story. Like whew ok we just went to space and defeated Despair itself and conquered the ability to use Dynamis so now it’s time to…go gather some crates lol idk

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Something that may have sat better with me and done a better job subverting expectations would have been to see them come together and draw on both their power to ultimately save the world.

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Yeah, I thought it would have been a natural conclusion. Both Hydaelyn and Zodiark work to protect the planet (only one of them can claim to be "the will of the planet" though, sorry sis, but please stop telling us you are), and even Y'shtola remarked in 5.4 that Fandaniel's goal of destroying everything conflicted with Zodiark's very nature, and we all know Y'shtola is never wrong. I was so sure it was going to go with this balanced direction, rather than... well, I guess this contrived plot would have never worked without the intervention of the Heart of Zodiark, huh? Not that anyone ever bothers acknowledging this in-universe, but anyway.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

I personally hated it. It just felt like a parody fight that was trying way too hard, almost like gcbtw: the trial

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This is funny because I have this good friend who semi-jokingly insists EW was just one big satire of the fandom's toxic positivity and a certain Twitter crowd's insistance on the bad guys being very, very bad.

Though I will say that when I say it feels good as a fight, it's mostly because I think it is in many ways the "perfect" Final Fantasy end boss: fighting the personification of a concept at the end of the universe in a battlefield that makes no sense but looks spectacular while epic music plays and your friends (well, your character's friends, of course) cheer you on. I do wish we could have heard more of the actual song rather than her ripping off the boss themes of better characters* for the better part of the fight. The fact that it plays only for the underwhelming enrage with two whole mechanics is a real missed opportunity.

But yeah. Punching Despair in the face! Don't think too hard about anything, because we just punched Despair in the face.

* I totally include Zenos in these. He completely shot back up in my esteem when he popped up out of nowhere at the ass-end of the Universe just to ask me why I wasn't done with this girl spouting nihilistic bullshit like a middle schooler yet. Dude... I know, right?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I respond so often because your posts are so often unsourced and inaccurate. Stop that and maybe I won’t feel the need to argue.

And by all means, explain how a man who didn’t know of Dynamis at all is supposed to come up with a counteract. Tell me how beings that couldn’t hear Meteions cries could fight against a being of pure Dynamis. Let’s hear it.




Every rectangle a square but not all squares are rectangles is a difficult concept I know.

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You’re the one that is constantly grasping at straws, constantly trying to defend your crystal mom waifu when for all intents and purposes, she is a monster. You are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else is, however i have given numerous examples, backed by actual in game knowledge and lore to support my
claims. Your claims have constantly been “because the story says so she’s a hero blah blah don’t think too hard about it.” Fact is, at the end of the day, she didn’t tell anyone what she knew. She kept it a secret and it led to her destroying her own entire world. I’d rather not continue this conversation though as you seem to be getting rather tired of being proven wrong time and time again, and so i bid you adieu~

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Originally Posted by Teraq

This is funny because I have this good friend who semi-jokingly insists EW was just one big satire of the fandom's toxic positivity and a certain Twitter crowd's insistance on the bad guys being very, very bad.

Though I will say that when I say it feels good as a fight, it's mostly because I think it is in many ways the "perfect" Final Fantasy end boss: fighting the personification of a concept at the end of the universe in a battlefield that makes no sense but looks spectacular while epic music plays and your friends (well, your character's friends, of course) cheer you on. I do wish we could have heard more of the actual song rather than her ripping off the boss themes of better characters* for the better part of the fight. The fact that it plays only for the underwhelming enrage with two whole mechanics is a real missed opportunity.

But yeah. Punching Despair in the face! Don't think too hard about anything, because we just punched Despair in the face.

* I totally include Zenos in these. He completely shot back up in my esteem when he popped up out of nowhere at the ass-end of the Universe just to ask me why I wasn't done with this girl spouting nihilistic bullshit like a middle schooler yet. Dude... I know, right?

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It kinda did feel like a parody when Zenos showed up, basically asked us why we were taking so long to defeat the boss then ends up basically being our arena ground while we fight (c’mon SE you knew what you were doing by letting us “ride” Zenos wink wink). The whole thing felt pretty ridiculous in a lot of scenes so I could see how someone could view it as a parody lol.

I actually ended up liking Zenos more by the end of EW than I have all these years. I get that he represents a raider who doesn’t care much about the story and just wants to fight harder and harder bosses. That’s funny cause that’s how I used to be too.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

How many times must it be said that she doesn’t distinguish her people and the Unsundered like you do. She describes both the unsundered and the sundered as being humanity.

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Except when she calls us her "childs".

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Prove either. Or wait let me guess. You’re gonna post that convo in Heavensward regarding Hydaelyn and Zodiark again aren’t you? And just completely ignore three expansions of context. Yknow what, fine let’s make it a rule that if a character does anything like that scene, we can’t trust their words ever again. Let’s see how many sources of information we have left.

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To kill Lahabrea the aether in the eye of a dragon coming from another star and not affected by the sundering was necessary.

To defeat Emet-Selch and Elidibus it took a 9/14ths of a WoL plus 7 presumably sundered heroes from other shards (but who knows if "from across the rift" goes even beyond the sundered fragments of the Source, so each could be a "fully fledged person". But let's stick with fragments for now). Technically 16/14ths of an unsundered.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You’re the one that is constantly grasping at straws, constantly trying to defend your crystal mom waifu when for all intents and purposes, she is a monster. You are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else is, however i have given numerous examples, backed by actual in game knowledge and lore to support my
claims. Your claims have constantly been “because the story says so she’s a hero blah blah don’t think too hard about it.” Fact is, at the end of the day, she didn’t tell anyone what she knew. She kept it a secret and it led to her destroying her own entire world. I’d rather not continue this conversation though as you seem to be getting rather tired of being proven wrong time and time again, and so i bid you adieu~

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You provide no evidence, no text, no reason to believe what you claim, and when I point out where the text disagrees with you you claim it’s either bad writing, my headcanon, or some combination. The fact you believe you’ve disproved anything makes clear that my biggest failing in these convos is that yiu are capable of good faith discussion.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Except when she calls us her "childs".

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Posting these again. https://i.imgur.com/xpAX2fX.jpg

“Our journey” doesn’t exactly scream “we’re different groups of people.”

And in Elpis she repeatedly uses “we” when discussing our plans for what to do next, referring to her and us.

https://i.imgur.com/58cYMnP.jpg

And this

https://i.imgur.com/qwe0r30.jpg

Venat and Hydaelyn consistently make clear we are united and while different in nature, both are of mankind.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And by all means, explain how a man who didn’t know of Dynamis at all is supposed to come up with a counteract. Tell me how beings that couldn’t hear Meteions cries could fight against a being of pure Dynamis. Let's hear it.

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I have to say I am not entirely convinced you want to hear it.

But the answer is knowledge and creation magic. Elpis's #1 resident depressed edgelord is stated not to be the only one with expertise in Dynamis. Is it so far-fetched to imagine working together and researching Dynamis-capable familiars, refining them so they don't go nuclear when encountering negative emotions perhaps? This isn't taking into account a system like they have in Ktisis, which seemingly gives Ancients access to Limit Break, but that might just be a contrived integration of a gameplay mechanic.

Speaking of Ancients and Dynamis, we have Seat of Sacrifice too. Yes, he was drawing power from Dynamis-capable beings. But then, this fact opens up the possibility to consideration at all. After all, a Primal is, again, a twist on creation magic, with souls. Areas of expertise of Lahabrea and Emet-Selch.

There is just... a lot that could have been done and explored.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You’re the one that is constantly grasping at straws, constantly trying to defend your crystal mom waifu when for all intents and purposes, she is a monster. You are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else is, however i have given numerous examples, backed by actual in game knowledge and lore to support my
claims. Your claims have constantly been “because the story says so she’s a hero blah blah don’t think too hard about it.” Fact is, at the end of the day, she didn’t tell anyone what she knew. She kept it a secret and it led to her destroying her own entire world. I’d rather not continue this conversation though as you seem to be getting rather tired of being proven wrong time and time again, and so i bid you adieu~

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For someone who claims to understand the lore well, the poster doesn't even do that particularly well:

https://i.imgur.com/ShwYNRO.png

https://i.imgur.com/dz8mTiS.png


Dynamis does not factor into their solution because said solution is designed without knowledge of the underlying cause, instead being designed to buffer the celestial currents where they are weak. Nowhere is it attributed solely to Hermes (as opposed to scholars, in the plural, as per the source), nor is an understanding of dynamis mentioned as relevant - for all we know they could've simply inferred the pattern in question, with Zodiark able to bolster it as required. And I am not familiar of any sources that attribute Zodiark to him specifically.

I hope people won't be subjected to more horrific personal attacks and defamatory comments from certain posters. That's usually the next step after the latest round of 'NOOOO, U MUST LIEK AND AGREE WITH CRYSTAL MOMMY' begins.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Yeah, I thought it would have been a natural conclusion. Both Hydaelyn and Zodiark work to protect the planet (only one of them can claim to be "the will of the planet" though, sorry sis, but please stop telling us you are), and even Y'shtola remarked in 5.4 that Fandaniel's goal of destroying everything conflicted with Zodiark's very nature, and we all know Y'shtola is never wrong. I was so sure it was going to go with this balanced direction, rather than... well, I guess this contrived plot would have never worked without the intervention of the Heart of Zodiark, huh? Not that anyone ever bothers acknowledging this in-universe, but anyway.

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Out of curiosity, do you play the game in the French version? I play in EN but I speak French well enough to be able to understand it, and I usually look at the FR version transcripts some posters put up to compare to the EN version, and I find often there's sometimes subtle, sometimes larger differences between the two. I know FR cleaves quite a bit more closely to the JP version (along with the DE version), but with its own occasional embellishments. The part for instance about Y'shtola remarking on Zodiark is clear in FR, in EN it's a bit more dressed up and round-about.

I agree about Zenos, I thought he was given about as good a send-off as he's going to get. Just please don't bring him back.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I have to say I am not entirely convinced you want to hear it.

But the answer is knowledge and creation magic. Elpis's #1 resident depressed edgelord is stated not to be the only one with expertise in Dynamis. Is it so far-fetched to imagine working together and researching Dynamis-capable familiars, refining them so they don't go nuclear when encountering negative emotions perhaps? This isn't taking into account a system like they have in Ktisis, which seemingly gives Ancients access to Limit Break, but that might just be a contrived integration of a gameplay mechanic.

Speaking of Ancients and Dynamis, we have Seat of Sacrifice too. Yes, he was drawing power from Dynamis-capable beings. But then, this fact opens up the possibility to consideration at all. After all, a Primal is, again, a twist on creation magic, with souls. Areas of expertise of Lahabrea and Emet-Selch.

There is just... a lot that could have been done and explored.

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I'd add that even if he is drawing on beings more readily able to interact with dynamis, they are in this context, fuel sources, and it is he who is performing the manipulation in question into LBs. Now we don't know if they'd use aether or dynamis to explain the LBs in that scene, as prayer can correlate with either, but it is not impossible that it might be just that that he, in his primal facet, is capable of drawing upon both, given that primals are beings born of much prayer. We'll have to see what they come back to with this. IMO, at a minimum, selective sundering of their people, without sundering the entire star and all other ancients, would work, and other methods could be investigated as alternative (or even superior) possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

To kill Lahabrea the aether in the eye of a dragon coming from another star and not affected by the sundering was necessary.

To defeat Emet-Selch and Elidibus it took a 9/14ths of a WoL plus 7 presumably sundered heroes 1from other shards (but who knows if "from across the rift" goes even beyond the sundered fragments of the Source, so each could be a "fully fledged person". But let's stick with fragments for now). Technically 16/14ths of an unsundered.

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All this math is really getting in the way of the power of friendship and camaraderie and hope for tomorrow that actually defeated the ascians.

Seriously how can you stand thinking about fiction in terms of power levels and force multiplers? I do not understand this way of thinking at all.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I hope people won't be subjected to more horrific personal attacks and defamatory comments from certain posters. That's usually the next step after the latest round of 'NOOOO, U MUST LIEK AND AGREE WITH CRYSTAL MOMMY' begins.

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This kind of language is so unnecessarily toxic. Why talk like this about people who disagree with you about the interpretation of a fictional character?

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Snip.

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Honestly I don’t think it matters to people who defend the story so hard. Like I truly believe that if the writers had done what you suggested with the dynamis familiars and other things, and if the story had a different ending, all it takes is for someone to say they didn’t like the story and list all their reasons why before you get someone saying “You didn’t understand the story…the reason why we needed the dynamis familiars was because…and see if you had paid attention to the lore…” The devs can write anything and people will defend it.

The reality is that for a lot of us who have problems with the story, no amount of quotes and showing screenshots of lore is going to change a perception or opinion. If I say this is the way things looked to me, this is the vibe I got, I didn’t like this character because they came off as this to me…someone showing me quotes from the lore doesn’t do anything to my perception that the story came off as convoluted, rushed and in some parts ridiculous to me.

But at this point I just break out the popcorn and watch the show lol people get so worked up.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

All this math is really getting in the way of the power of friendship and camaraderie and hope for tomorrow that actually defeated the ascians.

Seriously how can you stand thinking about fiction in terms of power levels and force multiplers? I do not understand this way of thinking at all.



This kind of language is so unnecessarily toxic. Why talk like this about people who disagree with you about the interpretation of a fictional character?

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Funny how you comment about him as being toxic but don’t address the person regarding other peoples opinions as being an “echo chamber.” Once again, here come people trying to derail a conversation into something else sigh.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

This kind of language is so unnecessarily toxic. Why talk like this about people who disagree without about the interpretation of a fictional character?

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I don't agree with your assessment and I don't think that there's anything particularly 'toxic' when it comes to my previous post.

I'm merely expressing my deep concern given the prior history of Hydaelyn fanatics resorting to personal attacks, tone policing other horrid tactics whenever someone successfully points out that, actually, the Unsundered aren't wrong to want to avoid being subjected to genocide by an unhinged saboteur who fancied masquerading as a 'supreme deity' and 'mother'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

Honestly I don’t think it matters to people who defend the story so hard. Like I truly believe that if the writers had done what you suggested with the dynamis familiars and other things, and if the story had a different ending, all it takes is for someone to say they didn’t like the story and list all their reasons why before you get someone saying “You didn’t understand the story…the reason why we needed the dynamis familiars was because…and see if you had paid attention to the lore…” The devs can write anything and people will defend it.

The reality is that for a lot of us who have problems with the story, no amount of quotes and showing screenshots of lore is going to change a perception or opinion. If I say this is the way things looked to me, this is the vibe I got, I didn’t like this character because they came off as this to me…someone showing me quotes from the lore doesn’t do anything to my perception that the story came off as convoluted, rushed and in some parts ridiculous to me.

But at this point I just break out the popcorn and watch the show lol people get so worked up.

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Agreed, some of the ardent defenders have really backfired in regards to my opinion. I call Hydaelyn/Venat a sparkleprincess mary-sue as mostly a joke, but their need to tear down a fictional race that happens to be superior to mortals in some aspects but also have their own downsides (that I like) seems pretty real.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

All this talk of Venat/Hydaelyn being genocidal. To be frank those that survived the sundering were just as bad..

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For sure, they did awful things and I wanted to smack Emet and Eldibus for their hypocrisy at some points. I found their motivations to be more compelling and relatable in the end and to be more entertaining than most other characters, though, even if they ended up having to look silly thanks to memory wipes and time loops.

All this talk of Venat/Hydaelyn being genocidal. To be frank those that survived the sundering were just as bad..

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I have to say I am not entirely convinced you want to hear it.

But the answer is knowledge and creation magic. Elpis's #1 resident depressed edgelord is stated not to be the only one with expertise in Dynamis.

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So let me lay out why I personally believe this to be untrue.

First, there the fact that the existence of Dynamis is not widely known at all. Emet and Hythlo, both scholars and experts in their own right, lack any knowledge of its existence until Hermes explains it to them. Venat as well didn’t know until we told her. It’s rational to conclude then that the vast vast majority of the Ancient world possess no knowledge of Dynamis.

https://i.imgur.com/gsuwaQu.jpg

Second, there’s the fact that as far as has been said entelechies have only been created in Elpis, with both the flower and Meteion hailing from there. Meteion as well is the most special between the two, being the only one possessed of a will or the ability to effect change in Dynamis.

https://i.imgur.com/rQQej5T.jpg

Third, even in Elpis the researchers we speak too lack any understanding of how Meteion or Dynamis functions.

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Ismene: I understand that she is able to able to read emotions and communicate directly with one's mind. Exactly how she was created with that talent, however, is a mystery to me.

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Quote:

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Timaios: Dynamis and...entelechies?
Those terms do sound vaguely familiar... Was there not a flower made here in Elpis which exhibited properties of one or the other?
It must have been centuries since I last heard anyone speak of such things. Has there been a resurgence in interest?

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Timaios: Despite my admiration for Meteion as a concept, I have never delved too deeply into the inner workings of her nature.
I know that she has a gift for communicating via emotions, but otherwise, her abilities are a mystery to me.

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Hermes, being Meteions creator, is thus unique for both knowing of and having experience working with Dynamis. He’s in fact the only one we know of.

With this we can make objective statements.

1. Dynamis’ existence is known only by a handful of scholars.
2. Hermes is the only one to have created a being able to control Dynamis on a massive scale
3. There are no Entelechies outside of the Elpis Flower (an accident) and Meteion known to us
4. Interest in Dynamis may have existed in a limited way at some point, but much time has passed since then, and no other concepts have been submitted using it since Hythlodaeus began working at the Bureau

Thus I think it’s fair to conclude that Hermes is the only expert on Dynamis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Is it so far-fetched to imagine working together and researching Dynamis-capable familiars, refining them so they don't go nuclear when encountering negative emotions perhaps? This isn't taking into account a system like they have in Ktisis, which seemingly gives Ancients access to Limit Break, but that might just be a contrived integration of a gameplay mechanic.

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The exact nature of the Limit Break post Endwalker is complicated. We have reason to believe, based on previous lore statements, that it is aether. But now, we have a potential Dynamis connection. Hell, it’s still possible that it’s both, with the ratio changing depending on the fight and context of it’s use.

On whether the Ancients could use it, Hermes says outright that they can’t “make practical use of it.”

https://i.imgur.com/Kx508Wt.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I don't agree with your assessment and I don't think that there's anything particularly 'toxic' when it comes to my previous post.

I'm merely expressing my deep concern given the prior history of Hydaelyn fanatics resorting to personal attacks, tone policing other horrid tactics whenever someone successfully points out that, actually, the Unsundered aren't wrong to want to avoid being subjected to genocide by an unhinged saboteur who fancied masquerading as a 'supreme deity' and 'mother'.

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It would be nice if it was possible to have a discussion about Venat without you posioning the well with an interpretation of her character that not everyone agrees with. The implication of your post is that you and people who agree with you are 'sucessfully seeing that the writing is bad, and 'correctly' pointing out that Venat is a genocidal monster'."

Don't you see that with language like that, there is no room for disagreement or different intrepretation? Just you and the people who agree with you, who are definitely right, and the foolish, misguided people who like the story and Venat (because they want to simp for thier crystal mommy or refuse to acknowledge genocide, or something. Not because they looked at the same story that you did and came to a different conclusion.)

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Originally Posted by Lauront

For someone who claims to understand the lore well, the poster doesn't even do that particularly well:

https://i.imgur.com/ShwYNRO.png

https://i.imgur.com/dz8mTiS.png


Dynamis does not factor into their solution because said solution is designed without knowledge of the underlying cause, instead being designed to buffer the celestial currents where they are weak. Nowhere is it attributed solely to Hermes (as opposed to scholars, in the plural, as per the source), nor is an understanding of dynamis mentioned as relevant - for all we know they could've simply inferred the pattern in question, with Zodiark able to bolster it as required. And I am not familiar of any sources that attribute Zodiark to him specifically.

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Do we want to argue whether Hermes was special for his knowledge of celestial currents again Lauront?

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Timaios: Chief Hermes's work? A worthy subject, indeed...
Those beings which soar through the clouds, majestic and graceful, are ever a favorite of creators. Even now, with so many varieties in existence, the flood of newly imagined concepts continues unabated.
What sets the chief's creations apart, however, is how they benefit from his boundless knowledge of the celestial realm.
Birds that climb so high that they disappear from view. Others which traverse the boundless sky in moments, and all without riding the currents...
I know of none save he who can conceive of such marvels. Even we who prize elegance of form above all else are dumbfounded by his genius.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I hope people won't be subjected to more horrific personal attacks and defamatory comments from certain posters. That's usually the next step after the latest round of 'NOOOO, U MUST LIEK AND AGREE WITH CRYSTAL MOMMY' begins.

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Yes I was being very defamatory when I got compared to a rape apologist in the last thread we discussed Venat in. Yes I’m the one with the personal attacks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

All this talk of Venat/Hydaelyn being genocidal. To be frank those that survived the sundering were just as bad..

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Which is acknowledged - albeit with the caveat that they are doing so to reverse the very act she performed in the first place, while failing to give them a proper explanation of why, so much so that they saw it as their duty to restore both the star and their people. Yet few of us would say the rejoinings not genocides in their own way. The fact that she is genocidal, though, is often brushed under the carpet or contested, even to the point that it's claimed that the sundering did them no harm and just "created more life".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Do we want to argue whether Hermes was special for his knowledge of celestial currents again Lauront?

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You can repeat it until you go blue in the face. It won't change the fact that it is not he alone who is credited with the design of Zodiark. Worse comes to worst? Strip mine any pertinent knowledge from his mind. He is a criminal at that point anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Posting these again.
“Our journey” doesn’t exactly scream “we’re different groups of people.”

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No matter how many times you post it, cherry-picking one sentence where she uses the word that encompases both "you" and "me" together when talking about something that refers to all of us won't make the other instances where she treated us as "her childs", like she's our mother who gave us birth, go away. I don't think she spoke to the other ancients in the same way when she was still Venat. Do you ever see her address Emet or Hythlodaeus as "my child"?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And in Elpis she repeatedly uses “we” when discussing our plans for what to do next, referring to her and us.

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I see a pattern. You're putting too much weight on words like "we" and "our" which are SUPER common in regular coversation to refer to multiple subjects including the speaker. Is that all you got to make your point? Do you make such a distinction when speaking about "we and our dog"? Is that natural to you?

Also, in those last 2 screenshots she's still talking as Venat, the sundering is far away from happening yet, why would she talk in a funny way to make a forceful distinction at that point?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Venat and Hydaelyn consistently make clear we are united and while different in nature, both are of mankind.

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Addressed in my previous points, but regardless, she has said many things, some which have been backpedaled explicitly in the story (like the convo with the Watcher) but actions speak louder than words. She didn't believe in humanity so she took it upon herself (without prior consultation) to sunder and create a new one that she believed would fare better. So much for unity. Also, that "humanity" that was in the other shards was gonna get abandoned in her escape plan. Guess they weren't humanity enough, as she was only concerned with the ones on the Source.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Teraq

But the answer is knowledge and creation magic. Elpis's #1 resident depressed edgelord is stated not to be the only one with expertise in Dynamis. Is it so far-fetched to imagine working together and researching Dynamis-capable familiars, refining them so they don't go nuclear when encountering negative emotions perhaps? This isn't taking into account a system like they have in Ktisis, which seemingly gives Ancients access to Limit Break, but that might just be a contrived integration of a gameplay mechanic.

Speaking of Ancients and Dynamis, we have Seat of Sacrifice too. Yes, he was drawing power from Dynamis-capable beings. But then, this fact opens up the possibility to consideration at all. After all, a Primal is, again, a twist on creation magic, with souls. Areas of expertise of Lahabrea and Emet-Selch.

There is just... a lot that could have been done and explored.

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Just as an aside and to add to:
Outside of explaining Dynamis and the 3 levels of aether, which may or may not come in later patches, everything you posted is what Hydaelyn did when she created the Source and the Thirteen shards, the blessing of light, and the story behind EW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

All this talk of Venat/Hydaelyn being genocidal.

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Yes. It's an apt descriptor for the deliberate act of wiping out the Ancients and whatever other species did not survive the Sundering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

To be frank those that survived the sundering were just as bad..

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As much strife as the Sundered have sown themselves, they largely did as much as a direct consequence of the Sundering itself. Often in an act of desperation to preserve their lives and territory.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

It would be nice if it was possible to have a discussion about Venat without you posioning the well with an interpretation of her character that not everyone agrees with. The implication of your post is that you and people who agree with you are 'sucessfully seeing that the writing is bad, and 'correctly' pointing out that Venat is a genocidal monster'."

Don't you see that with language like that, there is no room for disagreement or different intrepretation? Just you and the people who agree with you, who are definitely right, and the foolish, misguided people who like the story and Venat (because they want to simp for thier crystal mommy or refuse to acknowledge genocide, or something. Not because they looked at the same story that you did and came to a different conclusion.)

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You're free to draw whatever conclusions you so wish. You can go through my post history and see that I have consistently urged people to agree to disagree when it comes to these 'debates'. I'm a little lost as to how that is equal to 'poisoning the well'.

If you or anyone else happens to like Venat? Cool. Good on you - plenty of people like Zenos so it can't be said that characters with few, if any, redeeming qualities in the eyes of many cannot be popular.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Yes I was being very defamatory when I got compared to a rape apologist in the last thread we discussed Venat in. Yes I’m the one with the personal attacks.

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I daresay that would be something to take up with the poster who supposedly did as much. It has nothing to do with me.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

No matter how many times you post it, cherry-picking one sentence where she uses the word that encompases both "you" and "me/we" together when talking about something that refers to all of us won't make the other instances where she treated us as "her childs", like she's our mother who gave us birth, go away. I don't think she spoke to the other ancients in the same way when she was still Venat. Do you ever see her address Emet or Hythlodaeus as "my child"?

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No, but I don’t think Emet or Hyth were as young comparatively and I’m pretty sure she wasn’t a god then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sicno

I see a pattern. You're putting too much weight on words like "we" and "our" which are SUPER common in regular coversation to refer to multiple subjects including the speaker. Is that all you got to make your point? Do you make such a distinction when speaking about "we and our dog"? Is that natural to you?

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What is “we” and “us” and “our” referring to in those screenshots in your opinion? What group?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Also, in those last 2 screenshots she's still talking as Venat, the sundering is far away from happening yet, why would she talk in a funny way to make a forceful distinction at that point?

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Because whether she’s Venat doesn’t matter??? It’s about how she viewed the relationship between the sundered and unsundered, of course I’m going to use her direct quotes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Addressed in my previous points, but regardless, she has said many things, some which have been backpedaled explicitly in the story (like the convo with the Watcher) but actions speak louder than words. She didn't believe in humanity so she took it upon herself (without prior consultation) to sunder and create a new one that she believed would fare better. So much for unity.

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She sundered them because she believed they could overcome suffering. If she gave up on humanity, then what would the sundering do? It didn’t make them more moral, or inherently smarter or stronger. It just forced them to confront suffering with their own strength, the same strength the Ancients possessed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Also, that "humanity" that was in the other shards was gonna get abandoned in her escape plan. Guess they weren't humanity enough, as she was only concerned with the ones on the Source.

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You’re right, she should’ve just nixed the backup plan. If we failed to beat her the Sources inhabitants should also rot in solidarity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lauront

You can repeat it until you go blue in the face. It won't change the fact that it is not him alone who is credited with the design of Zodiark. Worse comes to worse? Strip mine any pertinent knowledge from his mind. He is a criminal at that point anyway.

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Ask Elidibus or Emet how they felt about his contributions. I wonder how they would describe him.

And the question is whether he was an integral part of Zodiarks creation, not the only one. Many I’m sure contributed, without him however things would get dicey.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

If you or anyone else happens to like Venat? Cool. Good on you - plenty of people like Zenos so it can't be said that characters with few, if any, redeeming qualities in the eyes of many cannot be popular.

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You're doing it again, right now. "You can like Venat, it's fine. Even though she has no redeeming qualities, just like Zenos"

Are you actually confused about how what you're doing is toxic? If your position was to just agree to disagree, your posts wouldn't be filled with constant asides about how Venat defenders want to be apologists for genocide because they love thier crystal mommy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yes. It's an apt descriptor for the deliberate act of wiping out the Ancients and whatever other species did not survive the Sundering.

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Which I never argued otherwise.

Quote:

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As much strife as the Sundered have sown themselves, they largely did as much as a direct consequence of the Sundering itself. Often in an act of desperation to preserve their lives and territory.
.

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That is still genocidal, regardless of how you view the matter. In this case 2 wrongs do not make a right. Besides Emet-Selch has openly viewed us in contempt in that he doesn't even view us as Human. So yes, still as genocidal as Hydaelyn, and this is not taking into an account that they elect the best course of action to address the final days (Their own fault btw) was to sacrifice themselves, and then to carry out a second sacrifice in attempt to rekindle the world itself, and then a final sacrifice to the new life in attempt to restore those originally sacrificed. Then we get onto Hermes himself, he who defended and stopped Emet, Hythlodaeus, the WoL, and Venat all from getting hold of Meteion, who is essentially responsible (what with her song of oblivion and all) for what happens.

Not sure about you mate but it seems pretty clear cut that they're equally as genocidal. Find it a little funny and ironic that you were here calling out people for being Venat/Hydaelyn fanatics when there's arguably just as many people here presenting fanaticism for what the Ancients done or were trying to do.