So about Summoner...

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Originally Posted by Capn_Goggles

Oh, well there we have it I guess, the numbers don't matter. So it wouldn't matter if Black Mage did as much damage as Ninja and nothing else changed, right? Naturally, because DPS numbers don't matter, it wouldn't be a big deal if Dragoon could deal the exact same personal DPS as Samurai.

Perhaps there's some sort of middle ground between 1% parsers and people who only log in to idle in Limsa where job balance can be important without necessarily requiring absolute parity.

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DPS numbers matter relative to what else the class brings to a party. When it comes to RDM, no the numbers don't matter. It's utility is already too strong. It may be niche and situational "where" that strength shows, but when it does it's disgusting.

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Originally Posted by xxPheNoMeNa

it should be among the bottom in dps when you can raise an entire party and brings essentially a cure 1 on demand.

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1) You cannot raise an entire party, mp pool won't support it. 2) Even if you could the party is done with that run anyway at that point unless you're all gods of recovery, and assuming you are, how'd the whole party die in the first place? Closest you can get is raising a healer and having them Healer LB3, but if that's your criteria, then Summoner can also raise a whole party.

I get you're exaggerating. Fine, you can raise maybe four times in quick succession, perhaps five or six if you have Lucid up at that time. I'll cede, that's most of the party. That's also 12 gcds of raising people that the RDM also has to survive. Then you're useless for a while because your resource pool is completely exhausted, and Lucid is burned already; whole party's resource pool is gone, aggro's in the dumps because of those five or six were the tanks, and by now everybody just wants to wipe and restart anyway.

And yay cure 1. I bet the healers are stoked that a DPS has a tier of spell they laugh about and pretend doesn't exist in lieu of cure 2/stone.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

What I suppose we midcore RDM are saying is, it's kind of funny how of all the jobs in the game, it's the fourth dps slot that's expected to be able to hotswap jobs on the fly while everyone else stays the job they main. No NIN is expected to be able to also perform at the top levels of MNK, like a top RDM would also be expected to perform as a top SMN. (or I mean, just main SMN at this point; you get the same levels of meaningful progression outside of the bleeding edge world firsters, who even still probably use SMN instead.)

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I mean that's been happening for a long time. Playing caster in the past, we were expected to play Bard or MCH (even in deltascape), nowadays that 4th slot hovers between MNK, SMN, and maybe MCH. If your argument is that ninjas or dragoons never have to flex or worry about flexing classes, then make your argument that you want NIN, DRG and BRD nerfed since that trinity has been overpowered for over 2 years now.

Also, who is being expected to play SMN at a top level? Most raiders aren't bleeding edge hardcore players, most of them will not care what class you play as long as you're good at it.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

1) You cannot raise an entire party, mp pool won't support it. 2) Even if you could the party is done with that run anyway at that point unless you're all gods of recovery, and assuming you are, how'd the whole party die in the first place? Closest you can get is raising a healer and having them Healer LB3, but if that's your criteria, then Summoner can also raise a whole party.

And yay cure 1. I bet the healers are stoked that a DPS has a tier of spell they laugh about and pretend doesn't exist in lieu of cure 2/stone.

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MP pool is ~14.4k, that alone is enough for 3 raises without any worry. Super-ethers can give you another 2300 MP (and they're useful for RDM, I actually used them during UWU prog). That's enough mp to easily sustain 4 raises, now factor in Lucid and the possibility of refresh, you can definitely get an entire party. Granted that statement wasn't made so much for realism as it was just showcasing how "strong" it can be. The fact that you can easily raise 3 people in quick succession (which is definitely a situation that can happen in a raid and is recoverable) is ridiculous. I've actually cleared on pulls like that.

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Originally Posted by Maero

So cute how smn mains try and speak for the Red Mage community and always state Red Mage is fine when that is so completely false.

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Top RDM players say the same thing that I am. I'm sure the best RDM players in the world have their facts straight, so why aren't they calling for the same changes? I also "mained" RDM last tier and am still required to play it for progression, so I understand the class and its disparity quite well too.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Also, Red Mage was not really overpowered

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No, the unbalanced glitch is not why RDM was overpowered. RDM was overpowered because it was actually among the highest DPS classes in the game at the start of Stormblood, before DRG, MCH, and others were fixed.

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Originally Posted by xxPheNoMeNa

They were "higher" because other dps classes were undertuned and needed buffs. RDM was actually overpowered back then because of it too. And most of those dps changes occurred long ago, so this dps disparity has existed since at least the start of 4.1 (honestly even longer because DRG/MCH were already meta before that).

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> Yes, RDM used to be overpowered at the start of SB. This was overcorrected pretty dramatically. They're as bad in the underperforming side now as they used to be in the overperforming side back then.

> Also, you act as if this long period of not making changes somehow justifies the neglect. SE has a track record of being too slow to adjust jobs that are clearly in need of it. See: DRG magic defense in 2.x, AST in early HW, WHM in late HW, DRK in SB, etc. This doesn't mean that there isn't an issue. I want to be in the universe you're in, where BLK and RDM mains haven't been critical of how SE has handled their job in SB.

Also, answer me this: If RDM is supposed to be SO GOOD AT PROG, why are SMN just as common in world firsts of the newest ultimate? And if you can be SMN and be just as good at prog, why would you ever bother investing in RDM? But you know, the ultimates just aren't HARD ENOUGH to make prog important enough for long enough, or something.

If you say so about the glitch, you always seem to like to be correct so i will leave it at that.
Some of the top Red Mage players may say it is fine but certainly not all of them.
You worried Red Mage if it gets buffs will be too close in dmg to your precious smn or something? The stupid arguement of Verraise is getting old.
If you would raise 3 or more members then chances are you will not meet the dps check anyhow
Then we have embolden, people are making it sounds far more OP then it actually is

And stating that Rm "It's utility is already too strong" clearly shows how wrong you are.

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Originally Posted by Wilbow

> want to be in the universe you're in, where BLK and RDM mains haven't been critical of how SE has handled their job in SB.

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BLM mains "had" an issue (well a few since SB release), and they've mostly been corrected. I think a lot of BLM mains are ok with where the class is right now. It's not desired because the community circle jerks this "lul no utility" meme but it's in a good place relative to SMN.

These "RDM issues" appear odd because some of you keep saying the issues are bad yet others at the highest level of play say there's not. Those same players acknowledge the dps disparity that exists too, but they understand that it's the cost of the utility RDM brings and they're ok with that. It's a weird class with a weird niche, but it's extremely strong for its purpose. The community is too fixated on damage output.

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Originally Posted by Maero

Some of the top Red Mage players may say it is fine but certainly not all of them.

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Which ones have asked for balance changes? Jump has repeatedly stated that the class shouldn't receive any buffs because of its utility and that people should stop expecting it to happen. Howard continues to say RDM is extremely overpowered.

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Originally Posted by Maero

You worried Red Mage if it gets buffs will be too close in dmg to your precious smn or something

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Not really, I'll play whatever becomes meta. I've always wanted BLM to be meta personally because I think it has the highest skill ceiling among casters.

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Originally Posted by Maero

If you would raise 3 or more members then chances are you will not meet the dps check anyhow

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Not true at all, top end groups can definitely recover pulls where multiple deaths happen. The only cases where this would really be true is golden phase or post suppression in Ultima (so ultimate content during the final phase of each fight). I've done it and seen it plenty of times.

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Originally Posted by Maero

And stating that Rm "It's utility is already too strong" clearly shows how wrong you are.

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Uh no. Anyone who does actual progression in this game would acknowledge how strong RDM's utility is. Beyond that it just doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by xxPheNoMeNa

The community is too fixated on damage output.

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This is a game where healer and tank optimization means pushing as much damage out of them as possible. This is a game where the common meme is that healers and tanks are just blue and green DPS. This is a game where among healers, damage disparity is one of the biggest debates between them, because healing is so stupidly powerful in the game that even in the most taxing of situations you'll still have space to do more damage.

Yes, the community is fixated on damage output. The whole game is, too.