The general player base needs to improve

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Okay, let's play that card. Do you know what that leads to?

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I'm not saying you're wrong, but think about it. You can't change people who don't want to change. That's why you must make friends who value the game similar to yourself. Yup, convenience of PUG's are nice, but you have to accept the fact that you're going to get these people. Coming to the forums and demanding people git gud is pointless.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

They could have done that in Sigma Normal rather than story mode. It makes no sense Shin is harder than Kefka and a longer fight to boot. It makes no sense that the third boss of the new sigmascape is harder than Kefka ffs. It's obvious they design fights based on what they think is cool, and then when they are all done, half-ass balancing. Like the poster said about Rab being in day one, its only because hashmal and to a lesser extend mateus are much tougher than ardath and rofocale, yet both are the first two fights instead of the last one.

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You cannot equate Shinryu and Kefka because they aim to accomplish different things. Shinryu was the conclusion to Stormblood's main story; the final boss in a single player game in a sense. Kefka, meanwhile, is simply a prelude to a much harder variation. Now I will say normal mode raids should be noticeably harder to serve as a proper difficulty curve in lieu of the absolute jokes they are. Alas, you're the one who keeps insisting they can't possible do that. So...

And I suspect they did that with Rabanastre to make it easier if people bail once obtaining their loot. Since it didn't work, and only served to render the second half of Rabanastre an absolute bore. I hope they abandon it in 4.3. Give me back Weeping City and Dun Scaith.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

grats, you did it with a plus 50 or more ilvl difference than when it released, along with players (especially healers) who do know every single mechanic. If you used MCH, you also did it with one of the least penalized jobs in term of adapting to movement mechanics in this game. Only thing easier is tanking it.

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I did it with a friend in i290. I was on DRG; she on AST. Neither of us had an issues the second lockout. The first? We got an idiot Warrior who refused to listen to any advice, died to Tidal Wave five times and claimed the healers were rude when they finally lost their patience with him. Shinryu is not a difficult fight by any means. He's simply not braindead easy.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I get too frustrated over this for my own good. I shouldn't, but it's exactly like you said; people vary in skill and ability. What I worry about is that the people who are good will shift the game like they did with HW again, which was a lot worse for medium to lower skilled people, and even high end people too.

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That only happened because the developers didn't test Gordias properly. They looked each individual mechanic with God Mode on and assumed everything flowed together. Their lack of testing the entire sequence of mechanics from start to finish is what created the mess we received. Gordias will never happen again because they already rectified the mistake which caused it. Unfortunately, it has made them incredibly cautious in all content. They even claimed The Vault was too much on leveling healers when it's among the best dungeons for precisely forcing tanks and healers to prioritize their actual role instead of being pseudo-DPS.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You cannot equate Shinryu and Kefka because they aim to accomplish different things. Shinryu was the conclusion to Stormblood's main story; the final boss in a single player game in a sense.

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You don't conclude the story in the first act, which is what that fight ended. But you also don't make the hardest content in any game at the start, and story doesn't matter. And there's that 4.2 spoiler we all know, which makes it infuriating...if they planned on that, why on earth do shinryu so early?

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And I suspect they did that with Rabanastre to make it easier if people bail once obtaining their loot. Since it didn't work, and only served to render the second half of Rabanastre an absolute bore. I hope they abandon it in 4.3. Give me back Weeping City and Dun Scaith.

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I think they made the last two even harder, but adjusted it down when they realized yeah, its a bit too hard for most people.

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Shinryu is not a difficult fight by any means. He's simply not braindead easy.

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Or it could be people here who might have beaten savage would find anything short of ultimate easy. And people who haven't, and haven't put the amount of hours in needing to perfect their skills to do savage might disagree.

As for Gordias, it wasn't just that. The rotations themselves were a big issue for a lot of people, because they were needlessly complex for complexity's sake. This was a big thing with DPS, and why I think DPS in general suffered such a huge gap between casuals and hardcore. We were lucky they didn't really make encounters super hard aparrt from the raids at start.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Or it could be people here who might have beaten savage would find anything short of ultimate easy. And people who haven't, and haven't put the amount of hours in needing to perfect their skills to do savage might disagree.

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This right here. This post right here is an indication of your close-mindedness that I've been telling you about. News flash, Shinryu normal isn't a difficult fight. Deltascape was the very FIRST savage I've ever tried. I didn't use a guide, and I was a DRK when I first fought him - pretty sure some members remember when I talked about DRK and the whole argument about not using Living Dead and stance dancing. I didn't do any of that. By definition, I was very much a casual player. It took me quite a few days to beat Shinryu...not because he was difficult, but because it was all about remembering mechanics. I didn't put hours into Shinryu...I definitely didn't have perfected skills. Yet, I beat him without being carried. It is not a hard fight by any means.

Quit grouping all raiders together as 'they must find anything short of ultimate easy'. You keep doing this over and over and over again, and for no reason because you don't want to open your mind - no, you want to stand on your position and type away and argue with anybody that is even close to a raider. Not all raiders find everything easy. There are raiders here who may struggle with O5S, and there are raiders who have cleared everything Savage and Ultimate. Quit generalizing all of us into the same category, using that as the basis for your one argument that has repeatedly, over and over through the months, been challenged and disputed. I've said this several pages back, get out of that glass box you live in. Engage in the conversation instead of being so ready to deny everything all the time because it doesn't fit your view. Maybe you'll actually find folks willing to actually talk straight with you, but you're so stuck in having just one solid opinion that all raiders are the same that all you have done is just repeat the same, hole-ridden argument repeatedly.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You don't conclude the story in the first act, which is what that fight ended. But you also don't make the hardest content in any game at the start, and story doesn't matter. And there's that 4.2 spoiler we all know, which makes it infuriating...if they planned on that, why on earth do shinryu so early?

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Expansions are their own story. Patches are essentially a sequel to the conclusion. Hence why 4.0 offered approximately 100 quests whereas 4.1-4.5 won't equate to even half that amount if Heavensward is anything to go by. Shinryun did conclude the story; Stormblood's main story. Everything thereafter is building towards 5.0. Now it's debatable whether they rolled out Shinryu too early, but his difficulty was never the problem. I'd much rather him over Thordan Normal, who was so laughably easy, you could shrug off virtually all his attacks with barely a scratch. All that accomplishes is making the story feel weak. Here's this big powerful Archbishop... that you curb stomp in less than three minutes.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I think they made the last two even harder, but adjusted it down when they realized yeah, its a bit too hard for most people.

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I sincerely doubt it. I wish they had though because after Hashmel, Rabanastre becomes incredibly dull. We have two good fights then two you basically sleep through. Once again, you don't improve player skill by giving them cakewalks.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Or it could be people here who might have beaten savage would find anything short of ultimate easy. And people who haven't, and haven't put the amount of hours in needing to perfect their skills to do savage might disagree.

As for Gordias, it wasn't just that. The rotations themselves were a big issue for a lot of people, because they were needlessly complex for complexity's sake. This was a big thing with DPS, and why I think DPS in general suffered such a huge gap between casuals and hardcore. We were lucky they didn't really make encounters super hard aparrt from the raids at start.

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I love how you just can't fathom raiders being objective. I repeatedly cite Nidhogg as a good baseline Primal despite him being a glorified pushover for any top-tier raider. When I can go into the current EX Primal with no knowledge of the fight, on a job I don't main (Warrior) and beat it on the third attempt after mechanics were explained. And I get survive with multiple vulnerability stacks. I'm going to call Byakko a very easy fight because even Nidhogg or Sophia didn't allow that. When I can solo the first boss of Hell's Lid from roughly 40%. I will call him easy.

And before you scream ilvl. I was 340 on my left side; 320 on my right and only at one STR materia in each accessory.

Back to Shinryu. I have said he was reasonable for story mode, but ultimately not a difficult fight if you pay attention. I suppose acting people to pay attention and actually do mechanics is just too difficult?

You are speaking to someone who learned Dragoon in less than two weeks, grinding it from 32 to 51 in a single day on nothing but FATEs. I looked up a guide on Youtube. Was I perfect? Hell no. But if I can do that, how is it so difficult for anyone else? The rotation wasn't needlessly complex per se, just not overly simplified. Regardless, that is no longer the case with Stormblood. So why has content gotten easier?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Or it could be people here who might have beaten savage would find anything short of ultimate easy. And people who haven't, and haven't put the amount of hours in needing to perfect their skills to do savage might disagree.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

If this was the case than how did people like myself, who had never done Extremes or Savages before Shinryu, clear him with no issue?

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28 pages of people who feel everyone must meet their standards and play the way they deem appropriate. Just because you want something to be a universal standard will never make it so, no matter how much you rationalize your position. People who play the game super casually, just playing a game to relax during their down time have just as much of a right to exist as the min maxers who want a real challenge. just come to terms that people get enjoyment out of games in different ways and move on.... no one is going suddenly to change

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

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Did i ever say I wanted anyone to play to my standards? Did anybody else? No, I don't believe so. It's fine to go into something like a leveling or trial roulette and take it easy. The discussion pertains to content that requires some level of competency. At present, the only current casual content this applies to is Rabanastre, Shinryu, and Byakko, possibly even the first three sigmascape runs and Fractal Hard I don't impose my standards on anybody. Neither has anyone else, really, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I get too frustrated over this for my own good. I shouldn't, but it's exactly like you said; people vary in skill and ability. What I worry about is that the people who are good will shift the game like they did with HW again, which was a lot worse for medium to lower skilled people, and even high end people too.

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It shows. :) My advice is to not stress over it a whole lot. It's good to have a discussion, but not good to stress.

SE seems to be trying to cater to a pretty diverse audience now, and I don't think that's going to change because of any threads on the forum. Experienced devs all know that only a segment of the playerbase is represented here.

I tend to think there's room to tune things upward without making it horribly punishing, and I also think some people are overstating it when they talk about everything being easy. If you're in the top 25% of players, of course everything seems easy. People need to not lose sight of the fact that not everyone is at that level, and the skillset required to remember, react, and execute everything varies tremendously amongst the whole playerbase.

I'm sure you're not polling this OP, but good weighed against bad, I'm pretty sure you've had more good runs then bad ones. Humans just tend to notice the faults in anything before acknowledging the good. Do people suck? Yes, its an MMO, you're gonna run into every type of player. Is it ever really as bad as we make it? Case by case, but generally never so bad.

Though keep in mind that I'm not defending awful players, especially not in this current age of technology wherein you can look up anything...with videos. Ultimately I really can't sympathize with someone, if they found out how to install, pay for, and run an MMO, but have no idea how to use a search engine, or happen to be too lazy to do so.