Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

I do. Never had an issue

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So then why silent removal if you're fine with speaking openly in game?

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

They're only necessary in Savage & Ultimate. Point blank period.

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Extremes i would also appreciate them but agreed, savages and ultimates should have them.

Where performance really matters, performance SHOULD be shown. It's kind of crazy that it isn't.
People doing Savages/Ultimates are already aware that their performance matters...

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

What the hell you're on about?
I didn't said anything about mentors or healers in guildheists.
Are you high?

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But comms are completely useless except for achievements and becoming a mentor. So yes, my point is that having better information about whatever happens in a dungeon could only be an improvement for the mentor system.
I never said that it should be the only criteria for voting. Or that only damage matters in DF. But it would help making informed decisions for those who want to give their comms to players who actually contributed to the instance. (Instead of just voting at random or following a predetermined pattern.)

And before you misunderstand my point, I am not in favor of damage meters in casual content. I just don't understand the argument that it would make the commendation system worse.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

They're only necessary in Savage & Ultimate. Point blank period.

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Wrong. They're necessary in any and all group content. People should be allowed to know if they're carrying so they may take action. Were the people trapped with you in P5S aware they were carrying you? Did they then choose to continue doing so? Something tells me it's unlikely

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

So then why silent removal if you're fine with speaking openly in game?

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Because they aren't worth the effort

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

Extremes i would also appreciate them but agreed, savages and ultimates should have them.

Where performance really matters, performance SHOULD be shown. It's kind of crazy that it isn't.
People doing Savages/Ultimates are already aware that their performance matters...

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Extremes can be muscled through even with deaths so personally I don't see the need. Savages and Ultimates are where having deaths will literally end your run.

As far as them not showing it, the most likely reason is because of potential harassment that they probably aren't able to handle in a reasonable amount of time. I can easily see hundreds of more reports coming in just for people abusing the parser to harass others.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

But comms are completely useless except for achievements and becoming a mentor. So yes, my point is that having better information about whatever happens in a dungeon could only be an improvement for the mentor system.
I never said that it should be the only criteria for voting. Or that only damage matters in DF. But having better informatiln available would help making informed decisions for those who want to give their comms to players who actually contributed to the instance. (Instead of just voting at random or following a predetermined pattern.)

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Then why care for something useless?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Because they aren't worth the effort

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Thats a shame. Don't be shocked if no one improves then just by a silent kick. Just comes off more as you want to avoid being thrown in gaol tbh since you have no issue being very open on here and giving those on the forum said effort.

Which is understandable, it's way more lax here. :p

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Thats a shame. Don't be shocked if no one improves then just by you silently kicking.

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It's not my responsibility to make other people be worth a party slot

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

Then why care for something useless?

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I don't. In my first post I was trying to understand why that other poster thought it would be a bad thing to have access to damage meters to give comms.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

It's not my responsibility to make other people be worth a party slot

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Good thing what one person views as worthy is different to the next.

Hence why I'm glad the devs don't always let decisions rest in our hands. Game is better without the toxicity that is trying to be pushed in here.

If you genuinely just want people to improve and have the motivation to do it, you wouldn't have rejected the compromise idea. We both know you just want to see the numbers and remove anyone who doesn't fit your own expectations.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Good thing what one person views as worthy is different to the next.

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This is simply not true, there is objective value, it's called your numbers

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Originally Posted by FireMage

This is simply not true, there is objective value, it's called your numbers

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Good thing numbers only matter to a specific crowd in this game that doesn't make up the majority.

Or are we really going to have the 25% completion rate argument again?

Edit: Actually, put a pin in that for the future. I gotta go to work and get my day going. Lol. Thanks for my morning entertainment again.

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

Slippery Slope is not a fallacy and one concession to overly meritocratic approach to game will eventually lead to more and more concessions until we reach a point where FFXIV becomes another WoW and videos like this can be made about FFXIV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU

Am I being hyperbolic and paranoid? Perhaps from an outside point of view, but I've been on both sides of the curtain and I'd much rather deal with FFXIV toxic casualism that ultimately compels me to spam /beesknees in a fc club rather than deal with WoW's toxic elitism that ultimately compels me to turn a hobby into a job.

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So you rather support the environment of sexual harrassment then, something that is rampant in ff14

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Good thing numbers only matter to a specific crowd in this game that doesn't make up the majority.

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Numbers (like politics) matter to everyone, graylet, whether you think they do or not

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Good thing what one person views as worthy is different to the next.

Hence why I'm glad the devs don't always let decisions rest in our hands. Game is better without the toxicity that is trying to be pushed in here.

If you genuinely just want people to improve and have the motivation to do it, you wouldn't have rejected the compromise idea. We both know you just want to see the numbers and remove anyone who doesn't fit your own expectations.

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The game already has toxicity and a much more frequent cases of sexual harrassment among the players but of course you lot will ignore that because DPS numbers hurt more

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Not acceptable, have to be able to see who the dead weight is

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"Who it is" and not "when there is one".
Have you had such bad luck that you consistently struggle to form a party capable of clearing group content? Or is "Dead Weight" just your word for whomever has the lowest dps contribution?

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Wrong. They're necessary in any and all group content. People should be allowed to know if they're carrying so they may take action.

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Carrying implies that you were able to clear the content nevertheless; in those lower tier content, this most likely means their never was a need to take action, especially for the kind of carrying that requires a parser to detect.
Or is "Carry" simply your word for whomever has the highest dps contribution?

Part of me wants to hope this is all just a maladroitous phrasing, but at this point I half expect you to say that every party has an Alpha and an Omega, and that the former always has the right to banish the later, regardless of whether they can clear the content.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Extremes can be muscled through even with deaths so personally I don't see the need. Savages and Ultimates are where having deaths will literally end your run.

As far as them not showing it, the most likely reason is because of potential harassment that they probably aren't able to handle in a reasonable amount of time. I can easily see hundreds of more reports coming in just for people abusing the parser to harass others.

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To be fair, a good amount of those reports will be people crying harassment over the slightest amount of criticism. A healer being told to DPS, a DRG being called out (even politely) for low damage or a tank not mitigating properly.

Which segues into the actual reason the dev team dislikes parsers: to coddle those aforementioned types of players. They don't want someone to feel bad for poor performance even at the Savage level.

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Originally Posted by Estecka

Carrying implies that you were able to clear the content nevertheless, which most likely means their never was a need to take action.
Or is "Carry" simply your word for whomever has the highest dps contribution?

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I loathe that you're making me partial agree with FireMage but this isn't a good argument.

Just because you were able to clear content doesn't mean someone else wasn't carried. A carry typically refers to someone woefully underperforming to the point other people picked up the slack to compensate. You can technically clear P5S with one healer literally never touching any DPS ability. Would you find that acceptable? After all, you did still clear. The difference is everyone else had to make up for their non-existent damage and likely saw additional mechanics which could be skipped. Now that's a more extreme scenario but a "carry" isn't just numbers but can come in the form of mechanical consistency. If they're frequently dying but never enough to cause wipes, they're still being woefully outperformed and making it harder on the team.

Lower DPS doesn't necessary mean a carry either. It's when the difference is staggering and noticeable. If a Dragoon is out-damaging a Samurai but both are still high on the list, then you can easily attribute that to potential gear differential or skill. Now if a Dancer is out-damaging either one of them, we have cause for concern. Context is important here.

Nevertheless, this really only applies to EX and up. Sure, everyone should try to perform reasonably well in all content but the standards for a dungeon run are significantly lower than Savage.

Agreed, I have made a generalisation that might not always apply to savage and EX. But Firemage said himself that a dps meter is also relevant to casual content, where I'm absolutely unbothered by people having lower performances, and am actually quite happy when I feel like I might be carrying.
Gonna edit my previous message to try and make things more clear on that point.

However I never said that no one was carrying if there's a clear; on the contrary, I meant that it requires a clear to be considered carrying.

The way some people act in regards to wanting the meter in game, shows pretty much yoshi and team is correct in not adding it in the first place. Would just cause more elitism and division then there already is when it comes to raiding.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

I don't. In my first post I was trying to understand why that other poster thought it would be a bad thing to have access to damage meters to give comms.

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Damage meters wont get anyone comms.
They go for noticeable things like tank rushing ahead of group and not needing a healer or a healer who heals every mechanic fail.
If not for those things then they go for pretty plate with cheesecake or animated relic/ultimate weapon.
DPS are at the bottom of the pecking order.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

So you rather support the environment of sexual harrassment then, something that is rampant in ff14

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How in god's name can anyone get themselves sexually harrassed through the internet?
The worst someone can do to you is send a dick pick and even then it's on you for opening a dodgy link.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Good thing numbers only matter to a specific crowd in this game that doesn't make up the majority.

Or are we really going to have the 25% completion rate argument again?

Edit: Actually, put a pin in that for the future. I gotta go to work and get my day going. Lol. Thanks for my morning entertainment again.

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I know you are bored and just poking fun at this Dorkfish of a man ( I use "man" loosely ) but you should save your posting limit for better things. Maybe 1 a day for him?

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Originally Posted by raelgun

So you rather support the environment of sexual harrassment then, something that is rampant in ff14

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This is rampant in any game community, I can assure you. A community that is more hard-focused on DPS numbers from a public perspective does not preclude the possibility, and presence of sexual harassment, and most especially how prevalent that behavior might be. In fact, if you went to enough parties, you'd quickly come to realize that a lot, if not most people are simply too introverted to actually make any advances.

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Originally Posted by Renalt

I know you are bored and just poking fun at this Dorkfish of a man ( I use "man" loosely ) but you should save your posting limit for better things. Maybe 1 a day for him?

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There's a posting limit?

J.k. I appreciate the concern but have yet to hit that nor do I spend enough time on here per day to hit it since I joined. XD

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

This is rampant in any game community, I can assure you. A community that is more hard-focused on DPS numbers from a public perspective does not preclude the possibility, and presence of sexual harassment, and most especially how prevalent that behavior might be.

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I don't think she's ever suggested otherwise -- only that priorities would seem rather backwards if that people would be so worried about harassment over parses when such is protected against by both the letter and spirit of the law even while the letter of the law here frequently offers little recourse against sexual harassment, overt stalking, etc. One seems to be bending over backwards in fear of more informed judgments and resolutions and consoles having access to a useful learning tool, all while treating something far more perverse as 'whatever' (or leaving it completely out of discussion when waxing the wonders of the game's community).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I don't think she's ever suggested otherwise -- only that priorities would seem rather backwards if that people would be so worried about harassment over parses when such is protected against by both the letter and spirit of the law even while the letter of the law here frequently offers little recourse against sexual harassment, overt stalking, etc. One seems to be bending over backwards in fear of more informed judgments and resolutions and consoles having access to a useful learning tool, all while treating something far more perverse as 'whatever' (or leaving it completely out of discussion when waxing the wonders of the game's community).

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That would depend on your perception and understanding of what goes on at parties in the first place. If your first perception of the outlined quote:

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Am I being hyperbolic and paranoid? Perhaps from an outside point of view, but I've been on both sides of the curtain and I'd much rather deal with FFXIV toxic casualism that ultimately compels me to spam /beesknees in a fc club rather than deal with WoW's toxic elitism that ultimately compels me to turn a hobby into a job.

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Is sexual harassment then there is a greater issue with attempting to misrepresent the original comment than there is in trying to make a sincere response out of it, most especially when the poster never made the claim that they would prefer sterner punishments around parsing than they would sexual harassment.

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

How in god's name can anyone get themselves sexually harrassed through the internet?
The worst someone can do to you is send a dick pick and even then it's on you for opening a dodgy link.

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Do people actually put dick pics in weird links now? I must be really out of the loop.

I personally just get them sent unsolicited through Discord by randoms (or requested for ERP) when they like my Miqo....even though I literally am listed as "Ask to DM" or "Closed DMs". (I.e. ask me for permission in a public space first/don't message me at all....if you don't know the lingo.)

I also have people I haven't spoken to in years from college or high school that like to crop up out of the blue and try to get me in bed with them without even asking how I've been.

Just some examples for ya. If you have or a girlfriend/boyfriend or wife/husband that spends any amount of time on social media you can probably ask them for more.

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

That would depend on your perception and understanding of what goes on at parties in the first place. If your first perception of the outlined quote:

Is sexual harassment then there is a greater issue with attempting to misrepresent the original comment than there is in trying to make a sincere response out of it, most especially when the poster never made the claim that they would prefer sterner punishments around parsing than they would sexual harassment.

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I wasn't responding to that quote. I was responding to your quote of the person you quoted.

Note: Rael's comment wasn't made solely to it or as a way of bending "spam /beesknees in a fc club" into "sexual harassment"; her concern was separately given multiple times prior.

Heck, this was my only response to the content of any of Dzonathan's posts (by way of response to another calling his claim a slippery slope fallacy):

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It's a fallacy only if you start calling something a slope slippery out of hand rather than per any evidence of critical thresholds that'd increasingly accelerate the effects rendered.

The way Dzonathan is looking at it isn't that, though; he's simply advocating for his own preference between two packaged options.

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